Smaller iTrials: Would you do them?
By
Agent White,
Posted on: 2011-12-26 20:13 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
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No, I've seen enough sitcoms to know that we'll have to divide the zone up. We can start with a left right division, and then rotate every tuesday. So it can go Leaguers get the left, Soloists the right, then Leaguers get the top and Soloists the bottom, then Soloists get left and Leaguers right, then top, bottom, and back to left and right. Free-for-all on major holidays and leap year. No Refunds, Returns, or, Exchanges. This program has been know to cause cancer in the State of California.
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Originally Posted by Golden Girl
You could always play the story arcs and do the repeatable missions instead of just street sweeping
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When I was much younger I lived for a while in a foreign (to me) country and I used to babysit a woman's young baby while she was out at work. Twice a week, every week, for 22 weeks. She had a betamax video machine and only two movies; Midnight Express and Grease 2. For reasons I don't need to elaborate, there was no way for me to get any other films, so on those nights I would watch Grease 2 twice. Apart from 4 separate occasions of watching Midnight Express, that's what I did. I've seen Grease 2 80 times.|
Originally Posted by Golden Girl
Like rewatching a movie or rereading a book?
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I still like that movie lol, but i think you'd call that an outlier in comparison to most people's experience. If you read a book and then the next day start it over again, and you do that as many times as people grind BAFs, then there's something unusual going on.
Eco
MArcs:
The Echo, Arc ID 1688 (5mish, easy, drama)
The Audition, Arc ID 221240 (6 mish, complex mech, comedy)
Storming Citadel, Arc ID 379488 (lowbie, 1mish, 10-min timed)
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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
[The Incarnate System is] Jack Emmert all over again, only this time it's not "1 hero = 3 white minions" it's "1 hero = 3 white rocks."
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For a number of years after I first read it, I would begin re-reading The Hobbit/The Lord of the Rings as soon as I finished it. After awhile I slowed down to reading it once or twice a year. Though I haven't picked it up since the Extended DVDs of the movie came out and I watched them in a single sitting. I keep thinking I should read The Hobbit gain, at least, but then become unmotivated to search the dusty book piles for it.|
Originally Posted by MrCaptainMan
When I was much younger I lived for a while in a foreign (to me) country and I used to babysit a woman's young baby while she was out at work. Twice a week, every week, for 22 weeks. She had a betamax video machine and only two movies; Midnight Express and Grease 2. For reasons I don't need to elaborate, there was no way for me to get any other films, so on those nights I would watch Grease 2 twice. Apart from 4 separate occasions of watching Midnight Express, that's what I did. I've seen Grease 2 80 times.
I still like that movie lol, but i think you'd call that an outlier in comparison to most people's experience. If you read a book and then the next day start it over again, and you do that as many times as people grind BAFs, then there's something unusual going on. Eco |
And when I was in Canada for a year, the people I was staying with got a copy of Fifth Element and played it incessantly. I lost count of how many times I saw it.
And, of course, I'll put an album on repeat for hours when the mood strikes me.
Goodbye may seem forever
Farewell is like the end
But in my heart's the memory
And there you'll always be
-- The Fox and the Hound
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Honestly, I think that's a bit punitive. When things are all said and done, there's going to be the ability to general 8-10 Emps a day, roughly 40-60 Astrals a day, and gobs and gobs to loose threads.|
Originally Posted by Trilby
But the rewards would have to be less (3 astral merits a day, 1 emp merit every 2 days or something).
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Limiting small-team/solo to 1 every 2 days? Uh. Nooooo. I don't think so.
If there are multiple small-team/solo "events" that allow said players to earn somewhere between 1 and 3 Emps a day (total), a couple astrals (apiece) and awards astrals at the end if you run over your Emp allotment, and you can pick up stray threads here and there.
I'd say leave it this way and let the players construct/buy their own salvage, rather than getting possible Incarnate salvage drops, and we can lose all the ******** and moaning about "I get nothing but craptastic salvage drops from the RNG".
This way, solo/small-team players can afford to purchase a rare in 3-7 days and a VR in 10-30 days. This is slower than raiding, especially for players on the sunny side of the RNG drops. But the progress is still steady and not "Build your T4's for everything by going the Shards-to-Threads-And-Build-Everything-From-Threads route slow.
The devs need to stop punishing people who can't maintain a "raid your brains out" lifestyle.
Clicking on the linked image above will take you off the City of Heroes site. However, the guides will be linked back here.
To the OP:
Yes.
"Champion (the Community Server... or GTFO) is like a small town where everyone knows each other's names, for better or worse." -kojirodensetsu.
"If all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail." - Maslow's Hammer
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Raid or Die! Is the new hotness in CoH. Of course even the gorilla has been pushing it into the old and busted bin for awhile now with LFD (a TUT that works without needing preformed groups) and LFR (a TUT that works that works without needing preformed groups) and lockouts to discourage the "need" to run the X,Y, and Z man versions of the same raid on the same character each week.
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Originally Posted by Hyperstrike
The devs need to stop punishing people who can't maintain a "raid your brains out" lifestyle.
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I think that there'll have to be random Incarnate salvage drops on the solo path to mirror the Trial path - it'll be much easier for the devs to balance the 2 paths it they're both using the same reward mechanics.|
Originally Posted by Hyperstrike
I'd say leave it this way and let the players construct/buy their own salvage, rather than getting possible Incarnate salvage drops, and we can lose all the ******** and moaning about "I get nothing but craptastic salvage drops from the RNG".
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For example, right now, the Trials give 1-2 Empyreans at the end, plus up to 4 Astrals for completing certain in-Trial objectives, and a random salvage roll at the end, with some Trials having a guranteeed rare or very rare at the end - so one story arc could = 1 Trial, but with a longer completion time, fewer special objectives to reduce the amount of Astrals from it, and no guranatee of a rare or very rare at the end, as well as a slower drop rate for Threads from the enemies on the arc - and depending on how many arcs DA will have, and how long it'll take to complete each one, there could also be an Empyrean at the end of each arc.
If, say, somewhere like First Ward was an Incarnate zone, that'd mean players could earn 8-16 Astrals, 8 Empyreans and 8 random salvage rolls during one full play through of all 8 story arcs in the zone.
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| This way, solo/small-team players can afford to purchase a rare in 3-7 days and a VR in 10-30 days. This is slower than raiding, especially for players on the sunny side of the RNG drops. But the progress is still steady and not "Build your T4's for everything by going the Shards-to-Threads-And-Build-Everything-From-Threads route slow. |
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
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Sorry. And I know my opinion on this isn't very popular or very tactful. But I consider raid culture in an MMO an aberration. A social disease. No ifs, no ands, no buts.|
Originally Posted by Ogi
Raid or Die! Is the new hotness in CoH.
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I don't mind casual raiding as the mood takes you. But the emphasis for any sort of meaningful progression on more than one character is on the "grind your brains out" method.
Clicking on the linked image above will take you off the City of Heroes site. However, the guides will be linked back here.
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DFB behavior has been showing signs of infection. I saw someone complaining that they had 5/8 and it was taking too long to get a DFB team going. Just. Freaking. Queue. People.
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Originally Posted by Hyperstrike
But I consider raid culture in an MMO an aberration. A social disease. No ifs, no ands, no buts.
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I would love smaller iTrials. My attitude toward the trials is a bit mixed anyway. I kind of like them, but I'm sympathetic to the complaints against them. For me though, the wait time for trials is just too much.
The Well storyline smashes character concepts. But, I'm willing to overlook that to progress a character that I like. I just pretend that it isn't happening.
The trial mechanics vary between interesting and irritating. But, I'm willing to put up with them to progress a character that I like.
The trial storyline is mixed for me too. Interdimensional war? Right on! Sutter, Apex, and Tin Mage were pretty fun to me. Killing mental patients...er, not so much. Killing the same AV's from other story arcs kind of reminds me of the old Diablo 2 zombies. Sure, this zombie looks like the others, but it's painted yellow! That means it's tougher...er ok, if you say so. Even when it's lame though, I'm willing to put up with the story line to progress a character that I like.
I'm even willing to farm these things until my eyes bleed in order to progress a character that I like. But, here's where I run into RL difficulties. If I'm not on one of the more populated servers, the wait time to the trial is just too much.
From what I've seen, the lower population servers just don't have enough warm bodies to support the trial culture.
The last time that I tried running an UG, the league leader worked on getting the team together for over forty minutes, and still didn't have a league. This was the only trial forming at the time, or at least the only one that I saw being announced. I finally had to quit the league before the trial began because I knew that after the wait, I wouldn't have time to finish it.
It seems to me the trials are meant to be farmed, but even if/when I'm willing to farm the heck out of them, I still often can't because there aren't enough people. So, I'm really looking forward to the small team/solo content that's coming out especially for my characters that aren't on one of the high population servers.
As the new Diabolique Trial in I22 sems to be separate from the current Praetorian war storyline of the other Trials, and mightn't involve the Well of the Furies, that could mean that it's going to be a bit smaller - like 6-12, instead 0f 8-16 or 12-24.
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
Smaller, solo path, I'm ready for any of it right now.
Just too much of pain herding cats, asking them to use temps, to click powers and to make sure all of them have fun.
Just give me a way to get my threads and salvage and I'll be glad to help teams that need it.
Questions about the game, either side? /t @Neuronia or @Neuronium, with your queries!
168760: A Death in the Gish. 3 missions, 1-14. Easy to solo.
Infinity Villains
Champion, Pinnacle, Virtue Heroes
For those that say that they would like to do smaller trials:
If they made reworked versions of the current iTrials that were made for 4-8 players, would you do them? Same basic plot, same length, just remade for fewer people. How much could they reduce the reward and still make them worth doing?
Basically, I'm wondering just how much the current team size requirements are actually hurting the trials.
"I do so love taking a nice, well thought out character and putting them through hell. It's like tossing a Faberge Egg onto the stage during a Gallagher concert." - me
@Palador / @Rabid Unicorn
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Here's an interesting counterpoint; Why should they reduce the rewards if the challenge is on the same level, requiring a similar ammount of time, as adjusted to the smaller team min/max requirement?|
Originally Posted by Rabid_M
For those that say that they would like to do smaller trials:
If they made reworked versions of the current iTrials that were made for 4-8 players, would you do them? Same basic plot, same length, just remade for fewer people. How much could they reduce the reward and still make them worth doing? Basically, I'm wondering just how much the current team size requirements are actually hurting the trials. |
There seems to be a disconnect that's going on regarding smaller teams 'must have' less rewards. If the challenge takes a similar ammount of time and effort by each member involved, why should they receive less? The only time not taken into account at this point is the time required to form the team, and if one posits the Dev team anticipated the ammount of time it would take to form a team into their calculations, that almost seems a bit silly (not saying it's not true, wouldn't surprise me either way, but...).
If a large team takes 45 min to complete a goal, why should the smaller team, assuming the same ammount of risk is involved (per character) in time and loss, why would the smaller team 'need' less reward?
If the answer comes back to 'more folks would ONLY do the smaller team/solo stuff' then the mindset, and drive, by the Dev's for larger team content at the incarnate level truly begs to be revisited.
Now, I have no quarrel if I can guarantee myself (like hero merits, for example) that I will only get a limited ammount of components/emp merits/astral merits per day from solo content (not even arguing the ammount here as long as it's per day of effort equivalent to the time I would run any particular trial) since currently I can only get so many of these same rewards through 'raid' content (per 'raid') per day. The fact that I can be ambitious enough to do both, if I have time, makes it even better, and the idea that I only prefer one (even if that one is the large group stuff) is still valid. If there's only a couple of 30-45 min things I can do per day in solo/small team content with a chance of failure (and the ability to redo it 'til I get it just like the trials) then why should I (and/or my small team) recieve less reward than the larger team stuff?
I like the current Incarnate content when I actually have the time away from my SG to run it. If I could just do it with my SG, I would do it much more often (since my SG would be willing to- which many are currently not). Again, if the only reason is 'more people would actually do the solo/small team content, then the push for enforced large team content needs to be examined.
One person mentioned that 'raid' content is a disease. I beg to differ. I think FORCED 'raid' content is a disease. Most servers schedule Rikti Mothership raids on a regular basis as part of the servers events. They're a LOT of fun when I choose to go. When I'm told the best and/or ONLY way to progress is by mothership raids... they become a job, and not fun anymore.
I hope the new DA is the cure for the current problems, making the Incarnate 'Raids' a healthy part of the game's ecosystem, run on a regular basis by groups of people that have fun doing it.
tl;dr version- 'raid' content isn't a disease, unless it's the best/only valid way of progression.
"I play characters. I have to have a very strong visual appearance, backstory, name, etc. to get involved with a character, otherwise I simply won't play it very long. I'm not an RPer by any stretch of the imagination, but character concept is very important for me."- Back Alley Brawler
I couldn't agree more.
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League formation time is a large factor in trials, so it's reasonable for them to give greater rewards to make them still attractive. I don't think it has to be MASSIVELY greater, though.
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Originally Posted by Lycantropus
The only time not taken into account at this point is the time required to form the team, and if one posits the Dev team anticipated the ammount of time it would take to form a team into their calculations, that almost seems a bit silly (not saying it's not true, wouldn't surprise me either way, but...).
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That is a very good point, and you're right.|
Originally Posted by Lycantropus
Here's an interesting counterpoint; Why should they reduce the rewards if the challenge is on the same level, requiring a similar ammount of time, as adjusted to the smaller team min/max requirement?
There seems to be a disconnect that's going on regarding smaller teams 'must have' less rewards. If the challenge takes a similar ammount of time and effort by each member involved, why should they receive less? The only time not taken into account at this point is the time required to form the team, and if one posits the Dev team anticipated the ammount of time it would take to form a team into their calculations, that almost seems a bit silly (not saying it's not true, wouldn't surprise me either way, but...). If a large team takes 45 min to complete a goal, why should the smaller team, assuming the same ammount of risk is involved (per character) in time and loss, why would the smaller team 'need' less reward? [/color] |
Let's strike that part, then. (I won't go back and edit it out, though.) Same rewards, same level of risk (save for the reduced risk that comes from smaller teams). Would you do the smaller-team versions of the current iTrials?
"I do so love taking a nice, well thought out character and putting them through hell. It's like tossing a Faberge Egg onto the stage during a Gallagher concert." - me
@Palador / @Rabid Unicorn
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In a heartbeat. |
Originally Posted by Rabid_M
If they made reworked versions of the current iTrials that were made for 4-8 players, would you do them? Same basic plot, same length, just remade for fewer people. How much could they reduce the reward and still make them worth doing?
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One of the greatest problems with the current trials is that their huge league sizes have an impact on how heroic one can feel while running them. The game has for years been balanced around an eight man team with only a few notable exceptions. On a team of eight, it's possible to make a significant contribution to a team and notice it. With sometimes over 24 league mates, ones impact on the success of the mission can be entirely lost.
Without wanting to further bash the trials, in terms of theme, none of them so far aside from maybe the Underground feel 'dangerous' or 'cosmic' enough to need more than a team of eight. They're just the same mobs as before but apparently more dangerous 'because the Well says they are'.
@Dante EU - Union Roleplayer and Altisis Victim
The Militia: Union RP Supergroup - www.themilitia.org.uk
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Because, as the devs have said, it's no longer "Risk vs Reward". It's now "Time vs Reward".|
Originally Posted by Lycantropus
Here's an interesting counterpoint; Why should they reduce the rewards if the challenge is on the same level, requiring a similar ammount of time, as adjusted to the smaller team min/max requirement?
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| One person mentioned that 'raid' content is a disease. |
But the pressure to grindgrindgrind for advancement, coupled with ever more egregious cheat mechanics and narrowing of what constitutes an "acceptable" participant is pathological.
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| I beg to differ. I think FORCED 'raid' content is a disease. |
Clicking on the linked image above will take you off the City of Heroes site. However, the guides will be linked back here.
I don't see why small team/solo Incarnate progress should have to have less rewards than trials.
Eco
MArcs:
The Echo, Arc ID 1688 (5mish, easy, drama)
The Audition, Arc ID 221240 (6 mish, complex mech, comedy)
Storming Citadel, Arc ID 379488 (lowbie, 1mish, 10-min timed)
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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
[The Incarnate System is] Jack Emmert all over again, only this time it's not "1 hero = 3 white minions" it's "1 hero = 3 white rocks."
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The reasoning goes that nobody would want to do large trials if you can get the same rewards without forming a huge league.|
Originally Posted by MrCaptainMan
I don't see why small team/solo Incarnate progress should have to have less rewards than trials.
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Which then leads to the question "why do we keep getting these trials if nobody actually wants to do them", but people usually just laugh or get mad when I ask that.
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As long asach server has 24 Golden Girls, raiding won't die if solo progress gave rhe same rate of reward per toon as trialing.|
Originally Posted by Hopeling
The reasoning goes that nobody would want to do large trials if you can get the same rewards without forming a huge league.
Which then leads to the question "why do we keep getting these trials if nobody actually wants to do them", but people usually just laugh or get mad when I ask that. |
Eco
MArcs:
The Echo, Arc ID 1688 (5mish, easy, drama)
The Audition, Arc ID 221240 (6 mish, complex mech, comedy)
Storming Citadel, Arc ID 379488 (lowbie, 1mish, 10-min timed)
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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
[The Incarnate System is] Jack Emmert all over again, only this time it's not "1 hero = 3 white minions" it's "1 hero = 3 white rocks."
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There may be some truth to league formation time, but I'm not so sure that it is a "large factor" because if it were, then smaller population servers would have greater rewards. Instead the reward for a trial is simply based upon completion of the trial and not whether it took five minutes or forty minutes to assemble a league.
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Originally Posted by Hopeling
League formation time is a large factor in trials, so it's reasonable for them to give greater rewards to make them still attractive. I don't think it has to be MASSIVELY greater, though.
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I'm not saying it is a large factor in how rewards are already calculated, you're of course right that a trial rewards the same amount no matter how long it took to form. But it is certainly a factor in the rate of rewards - as in, the amount of play time it takes to obtain any given goal. In this measure, yes, it is a penalty to play on a smaller server where leagues take longer to form. That's quite difficult for developers to address directly, though. But if, say, 10 minutes out of every hour I spend on trials is actually spent waiting in Pocket D, then just to break even with a solo path, I should be able to expect the remaining 50 minutes of actually doing trials to give similar rewards to what I could've gotten for a full 60 minutes of soloing. Really, to make the trials attractive enough to draw a dozen or more players on a regular basis, the 50 minutes of trial should be more rewarding than 60 minutes of solo play. Plus, waiting for a trial is boring (DA street sweeping will hopefully make this less true), which will further drive players away from trials if the reward rates are only equal.
Currently, the trials are at least a couple orders of magnitude better than the incarnate progress I can make solo in the same amount of time (by soloing for shards to turn into threads, mostly). That margin could be way, way smaller and trials would still be attractive to many players, just as TFs are attractive for reward merits even though you can solo for not-so-much-lower returns from story arcs.
All that said, I personally wouldn't mind if the solo/small team path was wildly overpopular, and trials became as infrequent as mothership raids or the less popular TFs. But that's only my opinion, which isn't shared by all players, nor by the devs.
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Hence the caveat I also added in the quote you took "requiring a similar ammount of time".|
Originally Posted by Hyperstrike
Because, as the devs have said, it's no longer "Risk vs Reward". It's now "Time vs Reward".
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Originally Posted by Hyperstrike
No. No I did not. I said the raid CULTURE is a disease. The content itself is (mostly) okay and can entertaining on a limited basis.
But the pressure to grindgrindgrind for advancement, coupled with ever more egregious cheat mechanics and narrowing of what constitutes an "acceptable" participant is pathological. Which is essentially what we have right now if you want to make any sort of realistic progress in the Incarnate system. Hence my labeling it an aberration. |
"I play characters. I have to have a very strong visual appearance, backstory, name, etc. to get involved with a character, otherwise I simply won't play it very long. I'm not an RPer by any stretch of the imagination, but character concept is very important for me."- Back Alley Brawler
I couldn't agree more.
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork