Smaller iTrials: Would you do them?
By
Agent White,
Posted on: 2011-12-26 20:13 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
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Because it takes longer to form leagues, and they have tougher challenges on them - the DA enemies are 50-54, and the Trial enemies are 54+ - solo content also doesn't requie the amount of co-ordination and teamwork that group content does, and because it's less complex and difficult, there's less chance of solo challenges being failable.|
Originally Posted by MrCaptainMan
I don't see why small team/solo Incarnate progress should have to have less rewards than trials.
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Leagues take longer to set up, require teamwork and co-ordination, fight the toughest enemies in the game, have the most complex mechanics - that's why they give the best and fastest rewards in the game.
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
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Yes, this is "one" way to do it, not the only way and far far from ideal for the majority of players in the game overall. |
Originally Posted by Golden Girl
Because it takes longer to form leagues, and they have tougher challenges on them - the DA enemies are 50-54, and the Trial enemies are 54+ - solo content also doesn't requie the amount of co-ordination and teamwork that group content does, and because it's less complex and difficult, there's less chance of solo challenges being failable.
Leagues take longer to set up, require teamwork and co-ordination, fight the toughest enemies in the game, have the most complex mechanics - that's why they give the best and fastest rewards in the game. |
One thing is for sure, when it hits beta/closed is when we will "all" actually know what the devs real ideas are and we can provide proper feedback as we did for the 15 EM gating mess.
The development team and this community deserved better than this from NC Soft. Best wishes on your search.
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Basic design goals don't change in beta - the 15 Empyrean idea was to reach the goal of getting more than just BAF and Lambda run on a regular basis - based on player feedback, they changed it to giving more rewards for the other Trials - the goal was the same, it was only the method that was changed.|
Originally Posted by Darth_Khasei
Yes, this is "one" way to do it, not the only way and far far from ideal for the majority of players in the game overall.
One thing is for sure, when it hits beta/closed is when we will "all" actually know what the devs real ideas are and we can provide proper feedback as we did for the 15 EM gating mess. |
Dark Astoria is already done - the design goal is for a solo Incarnate path that's slower than the Trial path - that goal won't change - all we can do is affect the methods used by the devs to reach their goal, not the goal itself.
By the time any beta comes around, it's already far too late to make any changes to the basic ideas behind the new content - a good recent example would be the CoT revamp or the superpacks - we managed to get both of them tweaked, but the design goals behind them didn't change at all.
The basic design goal of Dark Astoria is already in place - the zone, story arcs, enemies and rewards have all been based around it, and that can't be changed - we'll be able to tweak the zone, story arcs, enemies and rewards with our feedback - but we won't be able to change the baisic idea behind the zone - a solo Incarnate path that's easier and slower than the Trials
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
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The stupid goal of the devs to get people to run the trials "the way they want us to run them" may not have changed(it should its a TOTALLY retarded goal), but the design has too or you run into the problem of people not playing your new content, hence the design changes made so far to "encourage" people to play the other trials beyond the BAF and LAM.|
Originally Posted by Golden Girl
Basic design goals don't change in beta - the 15 Empyrean idea was to reach the goal of getting more than just BAF and Lambda run on a regular basis - based on player feedback, they changed it to giving more rewards for the other Trials - the goal was the same, it was only the method that was changed.
Dark Astoria is already done - the design goal is for a solo Incarnate path that's slower than the Trial path - that goal won't change - all we can do is affect the methods used by the devs to reach their goal, not the goal itself. By the time any beta comes around, it's already far too late to make any changes to the basic ideas behind the new content - a good recent example would be the CoT revamp or the superpacks - we managed to get both of them tweaked, but the design goals behind them didn't change at all. The basic design goal of Dark Astoria is already in place - the zone, story arcs, enemies and rewards have all been based around it, and that can't be changed - we'll be able to tweak the zone, story arcs, enemies and rewards with our feedback - but we won't be able to change the baisic idea behind the zone - a solo Incarnate path that's easier and slower than the Trials |
I have not seen a red letter person state what their goal is with the incarnate solo path and anxiously await to see same, confident that if they do another 15EM deal, most people here will respond in kind. YMMV.
The development team and this community deserved better than this from NC Soft. Best wishes on your search.
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They've said it will be slower than the Trial path.
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Originally Posted by Darth_Khasei
I have not seen a red letter person state what their goal is with the incarnate solo path
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@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
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I think EVERYONE here that has played the game for as long as I have (5yrs) understands the solo path is going to be slower than the larger trials and I don't think that is at issue with anyone posting here. Soloing 1-50 is slower than teaming 1-50 and nobody has stated they expect it to be different, so you repeating its going to be slower is superfluous.
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Originally Posted by Golden Girl
They've said it will be slower than the Trial path.
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The development team and this community deserved better than this from NC Soft. Best wishes on your search.
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Not when some people still seem to be wanting it to be just as fast as the Trial path |
Originally Posted by Darth_Khasei
I think EVERYONE here that has played the game for as long as I have (5yrs) understands the solo path is going to be slower than the larger trials and I don't think that is at issue with anyone posting here. Soloing 1-50 is slower than teaming 1-50 and nobody has stated they expect it to be different, so you repeating its going to be slower is superfluous.
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@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
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My take on GG's insistence on the slowness of DA progress is that it is slowness on the next timescale, ie glacial or geological (I'd rate the current solo path at geological to cosmic timescales), otherwise why keep restating the duh-level obvious.|
Originally Posted by Darth_Khasei
I think EVERYONE here that has played the game for as long as I have (5yrs) understands the solo path is going to be slower than the larger trials and I don't think that is at issue with anyone posting here.
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The gorilla is lessening the reward differences for logistical hurdles. Now isn't a good time for the new kid on the raid block to start increasing them especially on a game where that was antithetical to its philosophy of the six years previous. Yes, a lot of "elite" raiders whine that herding 15 extra people entitles them to better rewards but the gorilla is starting to listen to everyone else. If you like raiding 25 man, raid 25 man, since you know you've always said it was the challenge and not the loot you were after. (The fact that 20 people could be asleep at the keyboard in The Chore and still gets things done illustrates the awesome coordination required for large raids.)
The entire game rewards challenges based on difficulty and time - the Incarnate system is no different.
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
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What does Master of <TF> award beyond a title?
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Originally Posted by Golden Girl
The entire game rewards challenges based on difficulty and time - the Incarnate system is no different.
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Sssshshhhhh!|
Originally Posted by Ogi
What does Master of <TF> award beyond a title?
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What are you, crazy? You wanna wake the badgers?
De minimis non curat Lex Luthor.
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A higher difficulty setting gets more rewards - teaming is also rewarded.|
Originally Posted by Ogi
What does Master of <TF> award beyond a title?
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In the 1-50 content, you get better rewards for more difficult enemies, and a bonus for teaming.
In the Incarnate content, DA is 50-54, and can be soloed, while the Trials are 54+, and involve teaming - based on the rest of the game, this means that the Trials should offer better rewards than the DA content.
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
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So a Master of version of a task force isn't more difficult than the default settings? It doesn't give better rewards than a regular TF, for the time or for the difficulty and the one extra it does give is completely superficial to gameplay.
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Originally Posted by Golden Girl
A higher difficulty setting gets more rewards - teaming is also rewarded.
In the 1-50 content, you get better rewards for more difficult enemies, and a bonus for teaming. In the Incarnate content, DA is 50-54, and can be soloed, while the Trials are 54+, and involve teaming - based on the rest of the game, this means that the Trials should offer better rewards than the DA content. |
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I love the amount of logical fallacy that is acceptable in internet debate...|
Originally Posted by Hopeling
The reasoning goes that nobody would want to do large trials if you can get the same rewards without forming a huge league.
Which then leads to the question "why do we keep getting these trials if nobody actually wants to do them", but people usually just laugh or get mad when I ask that. |
I will tell you straight up, you are in a way right. If the solo option gives equal rewards to trials then no one will do the trials anymore, ever, and it is not because they enjoy them it is because you can consistently complete solo objects because there are less variables. I prefer trials, I actually like playing with other people in an MMO which seems to be so shocking to some people, but if the solo option gives equal rewards that means that I don't have to worry about everyone else say, using Ion on the TPN. It is not that I like soloing more, I hate soloing and it is a reason that I can't bring myself to play this game more than twice a week, but there is no way they can make solo content as challenging as trial content. Solo will ALWAYS be easier because their will be less variables involved so if it gives equal rewards then there will be no reason to do trials, which are harder.
People who enjoy trials will still do them, but they will be once in awhile things because why do something that is harder for equal rewards? I may like it more but I am not stupid and most players are the same way, they want the most rewards for their time invested.
No relation to Arachnos!
Part Pack: Now the majority of players know how we, PvPers, have felt for years now. Don't want to be so "civil" now that you have been completly ignored, do you?
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The devs discovered that with the AE - and datamining the Sewer Trial is probably showing thme something very similar |
Originally Posted by Arbiter_Shade
most players are the same way, they want the most rewards for their time invested.
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@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
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Some people will always be outlanders so to speak and they generally get their desires balanced with the rest of us people that understand its not going to be the same rate just like the 1-50 content when its teaming vs soloing. YMMV.
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Originally Posted by Golden Girl
Not when some people still seem to be wanting it to be just as fast as the Trial path
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The development team and this community deserved better than this from NC Soft. Best wishes on your search.
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True...sometimes.
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Originally Posted by Golden Girl
The entire game rewards challenges based on difficulty and time - the Incarnate system is no different.
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The development team and this community deserved better than this from NC Soft. Best wishes on your search.
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Which is partially what people are griping about. The out-of-play effort it takes to assemble teams (especially on some servers, and on a trial-specific basis (BAF, Lambda, Keyes, UG, etc)) can be outrageous.|
Originally Posted by Golden Girl
Because it takes longer to form leagues
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And rewarding us for sitting on our hands waiting just to queue up is nonsensical.
If they're doing time vs reward, it should be time played.
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| and they have tougher challenges on them |
Can you REALLY say it's more dangerous than some level 50 or 50+1 running around soloing?
I think not.
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| the DA enemies are 50-54, and the Trial enemies are 54+ - solo content also doesn't requie the amount of co-ordination and teamwork that group content does |
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| and because it's less complex and difficult, there's less chance of solo challenges being failable. |
Please stop putting forth your suppositions and preferences as authority on the subject. It's not.
Clicking on the linked image above will take you off the City of Heroes site. However, the guides will be linked back here.
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Tasks designed for 1 player can't be as complex as tasks designed for 2 or more, Trial enemies are between 2 and 6 levels higher than the DA enemies, and it's hard to fail through a lack of teamwork when you're solo.
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Originally Posted by Hyperstrike
You (Golden Girl) have no clue if the upcoming solo/small-teams content is going to be less complex, less difficult or less able to be failed.
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@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
I think there needs to be a distinction made that I'm not sure has been made in this discussion and similar: minimum and maximum size.
See, when we think about a story arc, we think about it as something to do solo. We get folks claiming that soloing is more difficult, since on the same content a team of 8 is just a straight mindless steamroll. Most story arc content is geared for 1-8 players, but we think of it in terms of one person.
Now, when you do a trial or a TF, you're always looking for the maximum, because it's a group activity so you might as well go all the way. So we get folks claiming that the iTrials aren't that much more difficult than solo content, because how can anything be difficult when you're throwing 24 players at it?
But here's the thing: nobody ever really talks about going into an iTrial or a TF with a minimum number of players. It's significantly tougher to do so, especially if there's some trick or gimmick to it.
TF example: Kahn is extremely simple and straightforward with 8 players. Even the final fight is just constant spamming of attacks, with a portion of the team splitting to fight AVs or even just bringing them into the AOE hell around Reichs. I've been on Kahns where we killed Reichs so fast that one AV would activate before the previous died.
By contrast, I did a 4-man Kahn the other night, and it was simultaneously the most challenging and the most fun Kahn I've ever done. The combat was frenetic and walked the razor's edge, with a couple of us dying at least twice during the fight. We barely had the damage and -regen to actually drop Reichs' health, and when the AVs activated three of us went to kill it ASAP while our Brute did his best to stay alive with Reichs. We won through tactics and rapid response to problems, rather than just unloading attack spam on the bag of HP.
Even now, I don't think many people want to play BAF with only 12 people. It would (or should) be winnable, but it would be hard, even for +3s. Mainly because of the prisoner escape; there's just not as many people to saturate the paths and catch all the prisoners. A higher minimum requirement does mean things become more complex, even if it's only because there's multiple objectives to complete simultaneously which means splitting the team (anyone remember how tough the Cavern of Transcendence Trial is?).
So I think you have to be careful when comparing content. Most folk seem happy to compare 1-8 content assuming 1 player with 12-24 content assuming 24 players. That's at opposite ends of the spectrum and can distort perspectives.
De minimis non curat Lex Luthor.
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Counterpoint, because I love you: Old Positron TF was SIGNIFICANTLY easier with a minimum team than maximum.|
Originally Posted by Bosstone
But here's the thing: nobody ever really talks about going into an iTrial or a TF with a minimum number of players. It's significantly tougher to do so, especially if there's some trick or gimmick to it.
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Especially before super sidekicking let us keep powers from 5 levels above us when exemplaring down.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Softcapping an Invuln is fantastic. Softcapping a Willpower is amazing. Softcapping SR is kissing your sister.
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Sure, but that was an exception, not the rule. Most regular content is easier with 8 than with 1 (or the TF's minimum).|
Originally Posted by Void_Huntress
Counterpoint, because I love you: Old Positron TF was SIGNIFICANTLY easier with a minimum team than maximum.
Especially before super sidekicking let us keep powers from 5 levels above us when exemplaring down. |
I think that's something else to consider, too. We're used to steamrolling content with 8 people. With normal content, the force multiplier of each additional person in the group outstrips the ability of the game to scale difficulty to the point where 8 people are essentially invulnerable.
As a result, we've been conditioned to turn our brains off at max players. If you're soloing or playing at minimum, you know you don't have the brawn, so you keep your brain in gear. You have to think more to pass the content. Even if you're soloing a simple tip mission, you have to be aware of everything. Tactics come into play. But as the group gets bigger, the difficulty goes away and things become simpler due to the force multiplier effect.
The iTrials, on the other hand, do not become simpler. As I understand it, there is some scaling according to league size that's different from normal content (don't know the specifics though) and the objectives are constructed such that you can't just steamroll right on past it. They can get easier, but brains are still needed, and in some cases they actually get harder with more people, like oldPosi.
It's hard to tell if that's a good or bad thing. It's certainly different, and the difference itself is a double-edged sword ("We want something new!"/"This isn't City of Heroes!").
De minimis non curat Lex Luthor.
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This is all just GG Blah Blah and it's wrong. I can't remember the last time I was on a BAF, sLAM or Keyes that even looked like it was going to fail. The trials are easymode steamroller automatic by-rotes now. If you still find those 3 challenging then you're doing them wrong.|
Originally Posted by Golden Girl
Because it takes longer to form leagues, and they have tougher challenges on them - the DA enemies are 50-54, and the Trial enemies are 54+ - solo content also doesn't requie the amount of co-ordination and teamwork that group content does, and because it's less complex and difficult, there's less chance of solo challenges being failable.
Leagues take longer to set up, require teamwork and co-ordination, fight the toughest enemies in the game, have the most complex mechanics - that's why they give the best and fastest rewards in the game. |
Eco
MArcs:
The Echo, Arc ID 1688 (5mish, easy, drama)
The Audition, Arc ID 221240 (6 mish, complex mech, comedy)
Storming Citadel, Arc ID 379488 (lowbie, 1mish, 10-min timed)
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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
[The Incarnate System is] Jack Emmert all over again, only this time it's not "1 hero = 3 white minions" it's "1 hero = 3 white rocks."
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We're meant to have moved on to the tougher Trials now 
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
Which then leads to the question "why do we keep getting these trials if nobody actually wants to do them", but people usually just laugh or get mad when I ask that.
Like I pointed out previously, Most servers schedule Mothership raids for once a week or so, and usually fun is had by those who attend. Now if those same players were told that to make any real progress forward for their characters, they'd have to do Mothership raids as often as they could over a long period of time to get anywhere... well they'd probably start resenting those too. That doesn't even touch on players who don't go to Mothership Raids because they don't like large team stuff, or can't handle all the graphics for personal or computer performance reasons...
"I play characters. I have to have a very strong visual appearance, backstory, name, etc. to get involved with a character, otherwise I simply won't play it very long. I'm not an RPer by any stretch of the imagination, but character concept is very important for me."- Back Alley Brawler
I couldn't agree more.