Level 53 and weaker than a Hellion
By
AkuTenshiiZero,
Posted on: 2011-12-16 06:40 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
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Originally Posted by Golden Girl
The Well is being "directed"
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Originally Posted by MaestroMavius
Somehow... I think this'll end up being another one of those amazing GG predictions that turns out correct.
Le Sigh. *I still think GG is actually one of the Dev's daughters or something.  |
Even if this is the case, it doesn't excuse the fundamental flaw of the Well story that it is somehow lending you its power. In doing that it essentially removes any autonomy your character has.
Thelonious Monk
Indeed. Re-reading Web of Arachnos is different now.
I can't look at the Well the same way as I did the 1st time I read it. 
Was much more open ended before it had a mind of it's own.
Which...
Might end up being a cool story twist if GG is right. What if someone/thing like the Battalion was controlling the upswing in activity from the Well. That it really is just raw potential. Potential that has now been co-opted.
Maestro Mavius - Infinity
Capt. Biohazrd - PCSAR
Talsor Tech - Talsorian Guard
Keep Calm & Chive On!
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If the well ends up to be mindless and is acting malevolent because it's being controlled, then I'd call that a writer's saving throw. It would be a clever way to fix what is a fundamentally broken story, and one I would get behind wholeheartedly, but it would still be a ret-con, if we want to be realistic. From everything written about the Well so far, it's fairly obvious it was intended to be an amoral selfish cosmic entity about on the level of the Beyonder, who is essentially messing with us for kicks and giggles. Changing it to not be that is pretty much the definition of a ret-con.|
Originally Posted by Scarlet Shocker
Even if this is the case, it doesn't excuse the fundamental flaw of the Well story that it is somehow lending you its power. In doing that it essentially removes any autonomy your character has.
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That said, this would be a ret-con I would not mind in the slightest, and would actually heartily defend if it happened. Ret-cons don't have to be bad when they're used for good. They're only bad if you use them to pervert a good storyline in order to fit in a bad storyline (or, really, even a mediocre one) into continuity, but what happens if you ret-con a bad story? Really, what other way do you have to salvage something like the Well? Expand on it? Do we REALLY want to even have that in our continuity? Because I, for one, am more than willing to look the other way if the great hand of a writer were to reach in and pen a much better story over the bad one we're looking at right now.
And let's be honest here: The Well as potential incarnate - as a tool - which is being used by malicious people to do evil but can be used by good people to do good (or by OUR malicious people to do OUR evil) is a far better story than the Well as a sentient god. That's actually an interesting story I'd very much like to be part of.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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I do too, but i don't come over like one of those people paid to post gushing praise for a product in blogs and forums as though i'm just a satisfied customer lol.|
Originally Posted by Golden Girl
The only connection that I have to the developers is that I enjoy playing the game that they make
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You're like the Praetorian version of The Boy Who Cried Wolf. Every time you say 'This will be great!', people are like 'hm. no negative reports to compare to, hence veracity of review questionable, wait and see for myself.'
You're still entertaining, though. I don't think you're related to a dev, myself. I like to think you're a particularly advanced Turing Test AI set free to wander the forum code, myself
Eco
EDIT: That last paragraph was meant as a compliment, btw.
MArcs:
The Echo, Arc ID 1688 (5mish, easy, drama)
The Audition, Arc ID 221240 (6 mish, complex mech, comedy)
Storming Citadel, Arc ID 379488 (lowbie, 1mish, 10-min timed)
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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
[The Incarnate System is] Jack Emmert all over again, only this time it's not "1 hero = 3 white minions" it's "1 hero = 3 white rocks."
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Here is my personal thought about the well. I beleive it is established in the novel that the box that is the foundation of the well waters power actually collects energy over centuries then periodically grants that power to champions who become legends.
Of course the well is sentient and malevolent; it is us.
The power it collects is our dreams, our imaginations, our divine potential. That all goes to the box and waits for someone we deem worthy.
Everytime a person has a heroic impulse they quash or a villainous one they withhold, that defining moment doesnt just vanish, it goes to the well. All the world-changing, consciousness-raising books and songs you failed to write are in there with every time you thought about seriously killing that guy in traffic, all those closet monsters, waiting for someone heroic or villainous enough to physically free the power.
Then, guided by your subconscious mental template of whst a hero or villain is, it seeks out the existing people and things that most closely match, and tempts or imbues them with huge chunks of that power. The power of 6 billion divine souls concentrated into a few thousand people.
Story Arcs I created:
Every Rose: (#17702) Villainous vs Legacy Chain. Forget Arachnos, join the CoT!
Cosplay Madness!: (#3643) Neutral vs Custom Foes. Heroes at a pop culture convention!
Kiss Hello Goodbye: (#156389) Heroic vs Custom Foes. Film Noir/Hardboiled detective adventure!
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The Well is "directed" |
Originally Posted by Golden Girl
The Well is being "directed"
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? Good Grief, Charlie Brown. I hope they do not make the problem worse.
The Well is problematic on two main levels.
1) It retcons everyone's heroes and cosmology: simply stated, your origin story is wrong, it was the Well of Furies that gave you your powers.
2) It gets into areas really not required. The Well takes on the trappings of real-life Diety in many aspects, and that is not necessary. Like it or not, however, here it comes. "Incarnation" has specific definitions in many religions, and as long as we are not getting any more serious than Greek mythology style "incarnation" giving us Heracles, then we are still in Wibbly Wobbly Superhero Stuff and you can sort of hand-wave it all away. When I was reading the comics, Odin and Zeus happily co-existed without any thought as to who was Top Dog. The Well, as it is being presented, goes above and beyond the call of duty, and when it is presented as being the source of all power for everyone and everything everywhere and able to possess Statesman, against his will, and make him chatter like a sock puppet... that puts a whole new look and meaning on being an "incarnate" of the Well. They did not need to go there. They did anyway.
Technically there is a third level, in that the actual scripting of all of the above is very problematic also, but that is execution and not concept.
The overall concept, as presented, is, for me, extremely flawed. Once the Well became sentient and insane, in addition to all-powerful, we had a problem, Houston. It won't be cured by saying, "Actually it was (Doctor Doom/Red Skull/Nemesis/Homer Simpson/White Lab Mice) actually making the all-powerful Well their puppet to make puppets of everybody."
Well, actually, maybe the White Lab Mice WOULD work...
"How do you know you are on the side of good?" a Paragon citizen asked him. "How can we even know what is 'good'?"
"The Most High has spoken, even with His own blood," Melancton replied. "Surely we know."
Not to mention everything about the Well retconned and tap danced on everything laid out in the novels and comic, both touching on and discarding them in one clumsy swoop.
The Three Sisters? Oh, they were just "agents" of the Well.
Anything about the Greek gods and mythology behind Statesman and Recluse (like Hades being an actual place)? Brushed aside as being delusion/illusion or forgotten. It's all the Well.
No chilling on Olympus or in some kind of trans-pantheon rec room for Incarnates/gods only. Nope, it's all Ouroboros.
There wasn't some curtain pulled back when we became Incarnates as we entered a cosmic level theater of operation. It's just the Well, and possibly some aliens the Rikti used to fight. But first, back to Praetoria. Back to Ouroboros. Instead of going onward and upwards we're kind of going sideways and spinning randomly, like a failed rocket.
Instead, the scope of the CoH universe, of being an Incarnate, of being a god, of everything got so much smaller. The Incarnate system and content has been the biggest anticlimax since, well, every MMO endgame ever.
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Like Saul is Ascendant's agent? |
Originally Posted by Johnny_Butane
Not to mention everything about the Well retconned and tap danced on everything laid out in the novels and comic, both touching on and discarding them in one clumsy swoop.
The Three Sisters? Oh, they were just "agents" of the Well. |
It did not have to be that way. "Retconned and tap danced on everything" about sums it up. It is really sad.
"How do you know you are on the side of good?" a Paragon citizen asked him. "How can we even know what is 'good'?"
"The Most High has spoken, even with His own blood," Melancton replied. "Surely we know."
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I can't help myself, I have to say it.|
Originally Posted by MaestroMavius
Indeed. Re-reading Web of Arachnos is different now.
I can't look at the Well the same way as I did the 1st time I read it. Was much more open ended before it had a mind of it's own. Which... Might end up being a cool story twist if GG is right. What if someone/thing like the Battalion was controlling the upswing in activity from the Well. That it really is just raw potential. Potential that has now been co-opted. |
It's all a Nemesis plot!
you could have it all
My empire of dirt
I will let you down
I will make you <3
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This sums it up for me. |
Originally Posted by Melancton
The Well is problematic on two main levels.
1) It retcons everyone's heroes and cosmology: simply stated, your origin story is wrong, it was the Well of Furies that gave you your powers. 2) It gets into areas really not required. The Well takes on the trappings of real-life Diety in many aspects, and that is not necessary. Like it or not, however, here it comes. "Incarnation" has specific definitions in many religions, and as long as we are not getting any more serious than Greek mythology style "incarnation" giving us Heracles, then we are still in Wibbly Wobbly Superhero Stuff and you can sort of hand-wave it all away. When I was reading the comics, Odin and Zeus happily co-existed without any thought as to who was Top Dog. The Well, as it is being presented, goes above and beyond the call of duty, and when it is presented as being the source of all power for everyone and everything everywhere and able to possess Statesman, against his will, and make him chatter like a sock puppet... that puts a whole new look and meaning on being an "incarnate" of the Well. They did not need to go there. They did anyway. |
My electricity blaster was born with a unique nervous system that allows him to channel and expel synaptic signals and static electricity, but apparently it was the Well that saw fit to have him born in such a manner.
My Shield/SS tanker is a product of Crey experimentation, but apparently it was the Well that arranged for him to be abducted, experimented on, and eventually escape.
My dark blaster is a former human who was lost to the Netherworld, mutated and brainwashed, and released back upon our dimension to wreak havoc. But apparently, the Well saw fit to curse him with all of that.
Etc., etc.... bull.
If I wanted a deity or omnipresent being as part of my character's background, I would have made it so. If the Well had remained passive, simply as a source for which all power originates, that's cool, I can get behind that. But I do not want any one thing deciding the fate of my characters.
@Winter. Because I'm Winter. Period.
I am a blaster first, and an alt-oholic second.
We all think that Nemesis is responsible for directing the Well of the Furies into becoming more active lately, but really, he is behind the whole Praetorian goings on. Somehow, he's responsible for the Praetorian Hamidon getting as strong as it did.
I'm more convinced that it's Professor Echo who is directing the Well.
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You mean when it was 'the Box' and not 'the Well'?|
Originally Posted by MaestroMavius
Indeed. Re-reading Web of Arachnos is different now.
I can't look at the Well the same way as I did the 1st time I read it. Was much more open ended before it had a mind of it's own. |
Because the well in the novel, the Fountain of Zeus/Well of the Furies, whatever you want to call it, was just a side effect of the Box artifact.
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More like how pepper spray is an 'irritating agent'. The Incarnate system is just as inflaming.|
Originally Posted by Melancton
Like Saul is Ascendant's agent?
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It is a resistance and defense debuff. That's why apparently ordinary citizens are sometimes two-shotting many characters, including Tankers.|
Originally Posted by Ogi
Isn't Pacification a DEFENSE debuff? If they wanted to let those civvies actually hurt you a Resistance (and Defense) debuff would have made much more sense.
A main battle tank won't take any more damage from a pebble thrown by a five year old when it is stationary compared to when it is moving. |
It's just ineptly handled. If the seers are that devastating when supporting ordinary angry civilians it makes no sense to not have a telepathist squad in with the heavy troops working the same mojo to make sure the invaders are annihilated in seconds flat. The whole thing with psychics debuffing defense and resistance while civilians throw rocks is a poor way of handling the story because in the end it still looks like your supposedly godlike character who normally shrugs off antitank missiles is getting pwned by some schmuck with a rock.
Dr. Todt's theme.
i make stuff...
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fixed |
Originally Posted by Melancton
The Well is "directed"
? Good Grief, Charlie Brown. I hope they do not make the problem worse. The Well is problematic on two main levels. 1) It retcons everyone's heroes and cosmology: simply stated, your origin story is wrong, it was the Well of Furies that gave you your powers. 2) It gets into areas really not required. The Well takes on the trappings of real-life Diety in many aspects, and that is not necessary. Like it or not, however, here it comes. "Incarnation" has specific definitions in many religions, and as long as we are not getting any more serious than Greek mythology style "incarnation" giving us Heracles, then we are still in Wibbly Wobbly Superhero Stuff and you can sort of hand-wave it all away. When I was reading the comics, Odin and Zeus happily co-existed without any thought as to who was Top Dog. The Well, as it is being presented, goes above and beyond the call of duty, and when it is presented as being the source of all power for everyone and everything everywhere and able to possess Statesman, against his will, and make him chatter like a sock puppet... that puts a whole new look and meaning on being an "incarnate" of the Well. They did not need to go there. They did anyway. Technically there is a third level, in that the actual scripting of all of the above is very problematic also, but that is execution and not concept. The overall concept, as presented, is, for me, extremely flawed. Once the Well became sentient and insane, in addition to all-powerful, we had a problem, Houston. It won't be cured by saying, "Actually it was (NEMISIS) actually making the all-powerful Well their puppet to make puppets of everybody." Well, actually, maybe the White Lab Mice WOULD work... |
I preferred it when the well seemed to be just some sort of quick and easy (yet diluted) connection to what was basically spiral power. It's wasn't some sentient vending machine that dispensed powers it had collected from dead gods, it was some kind of inner power that explained why we were getting stronger than the usual NPCs. The AVs hide behind their armies and never take the forefront, the signature heroes only fight things they think are "even" with them. Our heroes are the ones out there fighting everything no matter what, our villians are the ones tearing the bank vault open with their own hands. We pushed ourselves until the power responds in whatever way fit for our character. Martial skill that surpasses all known masters, the knowledge to boost our abilities and plow through armies of minions alone.
Instead we got what we have now, and pretty much any complaint I have has been said. Personally I think Preatoria's story should have been pretty low on the difficulty scale to show how damn powerful we had become. Let us have a moment where we have a slugging match with Tyrant, even with all his god well powers to show how far we've come. Of course the real trial will require us to beat him in 5 minutes with him only taking damage from a single random damage type that shifts every 20 seconds with all other damage healing him.
I'm sick of bells and whistles attached to every damn mission being made. For the finale of Praetoria just give us this http://youtu.be/sKT3RFCggKM and focus on writing a decent plot for the trial instead of sniffing paint to see what retarded gimmick you can think of and cram in next. And for god's sake let him die, I'm sick of all the praetorians limping away due to plot when they should be deader than dead. It's war, 99% of our characters would have gladly ripped Marauder's head clean off at the end or blown a hole straight through anti-matter. None of my characters, hero or villian want to let Cole live. NONE. OF. THEM.
There is a difference between retreating and giving up.
"A good evil villian kills with style"-Galgarion
"Ha you're more full of yourself than I am!"-Jack Spicer
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The Trials imply that the AVs are taken out in a pretty permanent way.
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Originally Posted by ElementalFury
I'm sick of all the praetorians limping away due to plot when they should be deader than dead. It's war, 99% of our characters would have gladly ripped Marauder's head clean off at the end or blown a hole straight through anti-matter. None of my characters, hero or villian want to let Cole live. NONE. OF. THEM.
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@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
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According to Prometheus, yes.|
Originally Posted by Melancton
The Well is "directed"
? |
Also, the Well of the Furies has only recently "woken up" because it senses a threat to its very existence - to protect itself against this coming danger, it's chosen a champion to protect it - but because it's a mindless entity that only responds to power and the use of power, it's chosen Tyrant to be its champion - it doesn't care how he uses power - all that matters to it is that he's somene who will use its power when it's given to them, unlike Statesman and Recluse.
Becasue he's taken this massive amount of cosmic power all at once, he's now under the control of the Well - but again, unlike Statesman and Recluse, he's not trying to avoid its control, which is why he's become its champion.
We're just tapping into the Well a little at a time, which keeps us free of its control - we're basically fighting against the Well using its own power - but because its mindless, it doesn't care - whoever wins the Praetorian war will be the most powerful, and that's all that matters to it.
As to what danger the Well has sensed approaching, it seems likely that it's something that'd want to get hold of a cosmic power source in the same way that it devours worlds and burns Kheldians and fuel for its starships.
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
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Actually Tilman and malaise are the only really dead ones(supposedly). Battle Maiden gets away, Bobcat and Neuron get away, Marauder gets away, Siege and Nightstar are being rebuilt probably, Anti-matter is still alive and metronome bluntly tells you in the MoM hub that you were stupid to let him live (thanks plot railroading), and maelstrom limps away after his TPN bout. So I'm sure that before we fight Cole we can look forward to a ******** capsule room fight where we have to fight all the praetorians all over again with all their gimmicks intact, probably at the same time.
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Originally Posted by Golden Girl
The Trials imply that the AVs are taken out in a pretty permanent way.
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There is a difference between retreating and giving up.
"A good evil villian kills with style"-Galgarion
"Ha you're more full of yourself than I am!"-Jack Spicer
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But the Well isn't mindless. Self Preservation requires sentience, sentience requires a mind. From that description, the way to boil this all down is, the Well is afraid. The Well isn't handing out power because it's responding to will or ambition, it's grasping at straws to get someone it can control to protect itself. Which all of this is contradictory of what we've been told the Well is. I don't think we're speaking to the Well at any point, I think we're talking to the first Champion of the Well. The creature that landed on earth and defeated Merulina, gained this power and after some time something forced it into dormancy. States and Recluse lucked out in finding the Well and getting some small offering of power, but now the Champion senses this threat that is going to steal away the power of the Well and is masquerading as the Well to drum up some 'champions' that it can control, so that it never has to actually share the power, only lend it.
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Originally Posted by Golden Girl
According to Prometheus, yes.
Also, the Well of the Furies has only recently "woken up" because it senses a threat to its very existence - to protect itself against this coming danger, it's chosen a champion to protect it - but because it's a mindless entity that only responds to power and the use of power, it's chosen Tyrant to be its champion - it doesn't care how he uses power - all that matters to it is that he's somene who will use its power when it's given to them, unlike Statesman and Recluse. Becasue he's taken this massive amount of cosmic power all at once, he's now under the control of the Well - but again, unlike Statesman and Recluse, he's not trying to avoid its control, which is why he's become its champion. We're just tapping into the Well a little at a time, which keeps us free of its control - we're basically fighting against the Well using its own power - but because its mindless, it doesn't care - whoever wins the Praetorian war will be the most powerful, and that's all that matters to it. As to what danger the Well has sensed approaching, it seems likely that it's something that'd want to get hold of a cosmic power source in the same way that it devours worlds and burns Kheldians and fuel for its starships. |
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Since when? For all living things on this planet which exhibit self-directed behavior, self-preservation is genetically encoded as an instinct, not a cognitive process requiring a temporal lobe.
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Originally Posted by Mad_Scientist_JC
Self Preservation requires sentience...
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NOR-RAD - 50 Rad/Rad/Elec Defender - Nikki Stryker - 50 DM/SR/Weap Scrapper - Iron Marauder - 50 Eng/Eng/Pow Blaster
Lion of Might - 50 SS/Inv/Eng Tanker - Darling Nikkee - 50 (+3) StJ/WP/Eng Brute - Ice Giant Kurg - 36 Ice/Storm Controller
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Fair enough, suppose I should say Self Preservation requires an aversion to death or the general end of one's existence. But anything that is supposedly mindless still wouldn't act out of self preservation.
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Originally Posted by Wing_Leader
Since when? For all living things on this planet which exhibit self-directed behavior, self-preservation is genetically encoded as an instinct, not a cognitive process requiring a temporal lobe.
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I guess it all boils down to how one defines "mindless". But in essence I agree that the Well appears to be exhibiting sentient characteristics, the least of which, IMO, is any evidence of self-preservation. Far more interesting is its apparent ability to manipulate members of sentient races, to offer or withhold its power according to a plan, and to sense, evaluate, and react to distant/multi-dimensional threats.|
Originally Posted by Mad_Scientist_JC
Fair enough, suppose I should say Self Preservation requires an aversion to death or the general end of one's existence. But anything that is supposedly mindless still wouldn't act out of self preservation.
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Now, this bit about it being "directed" stands to throw into question whether it is the Well itself that is doing all these things, and thus exhibiting sentient behavior, or if it is merely like a dumb animal, conditioned and controlled by something even more powerful and more akin to a creature we would expect to be sentient.
NOR-RAD - 50 Rad/Rad/Elec Defender - Nikki Stryker - 50 DM/SR/Weap Scrapper - Iron Marauder - 50 Eng/Eng/Pow Blaster
Lion of Might - 50 SS/Inv/Eng Tanker - Darling Nikkee - 50 (+3) StJ/WP/Eng Brute - Ice Giant Kurg - 36 Ice/Storm Controller
The well speaks to us in Ramiel's arc. That's pretty damned sentient right there.
And it's also the moment I wanted to run screaming from the Well's power. Why the hell would any sane being want to be the servant of a mad, all-powerful god? That's just a complete logic disconnect right there. Also, if the Well is being controlled, it would imply that whoever is controlling it is more powerful than the Well. Now, right there, we have scary, cosmic sized power. And yet here we are, being pwnd by citizens wielding rocks. Is it any wonder the two scenarios don't sit well together?
Personally, I feel the mistake was in making the Well in any way sentient or conscious because it changes the relationship of our characters to their powers. We're no longer strong heroes fighting the forces of good/evil, we're acolytes to a divine entity, cowering at its feet and trying to convince it to give us more power. We're not the warrior, trying to make things better/worse, we're the priest, praying to a god to give us strength. It stripped us of our individuality. If the Trials are being written by someone who knows CoX mechanics well, they certainly have little idea of what makes CoX great.
If this is the Incarnate system going according to plan, I shudder to think what horrors lie in store for us in Dark Astoria and beyond.
@Dante EU - Union Roleplayer and Altisis Victim
The Militia: Union RP Supergroup - www.themilitia.org.uk
The only connection that I have to the developers is that I enjoy playing the game that they make
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork