Level 53 and weaker than a Hellion
By
AkuTenshiiZero,
Posted on: 2011-12-16 06:40 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
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I suggest people use this thread to vet very specific, bulleted lists of things they would like to see going forward with the playerbase.|
Originally Posted by Johnny_Butane
This thread is pretty much only good for letting off steam that's been building for some people since this time last year. If you want to actually change anything and be productive, things have to be taken up a couple notches.
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If the playerbase doesn't reveal gaping problems with the idea, shoot it over to Zwillinger and Avatea.
They may not agree, but we can try to make sure they know and understand. Even if we fail to do that, it's better than not trying.
After all, apparently the Devs are getting ready to look at Tankers, therefore anything is possible, right?
Story Arcs I created:
Every Rose: (#17702) Villainous vs Legacy Chain. Forget Arachnos, join the CoT!
Cosplay Madness!: (#3643) Neutral vs Custom Foes. Heroes at a pop culture convention!
Kiss Hello Goodbye: (#156389) Heroic vs Custom Foes. Film Noir/Hardboiled detective adventure!
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Originally Posted by Johnny_Butane
This thread is kind of pointless now.
It started with a very specific criticism about rocks on the TPN trial. The developers looked at the complaints, shrugged and told people to play better. Now the thread has evolved into pointing out the very real problems and failures in the Incarnate system and content, which the rocks are only a symptom of. But there's no developers even in the office to read any of it, and the last thing they're going to do after getting back to work is drudge through 20+ more pages of stuff they didn't even understand when it was just about rocks. This thread is pretty much only good for letting off steam that's been building for some people since this time last year. If you want to actually change anything and be productive, things have to be taken up a couple notches. . |
I prefer to give Zwillinger and the rest of the CC team the benefit of the doubt. They'll come back from the holiday break and realise this needs to be managed better and I trust him to realise this is a big problem and to speak with the people that need to know and to come back to us.
Thelonious Monk
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I'm doing my part by not doing anything incarnate based with my two incarnates (a T3 Alpha and T1 Alpha, all built using the shard era system) until DA goes live, then if DA is good, I will continue using the incarnate system, if it is there solely to herd people into iTrials, I won't touch the incarnate system again outside of Ramiel's unlock and whatever WSTs I feel like running, if at all. |
Originally Posted by Johnny_Butane
If you want to actually change anything and be productive, things have to be taken up a couple notches.
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If my data is mined I want it to show I *was* interested in incarnates, ran them under the shards system and stopped dead on iTrials.
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I think that they were talking about it from a story angle |
Originally Posted by Johnny_Butane
Probably through buying it in the Paragon Market.
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@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
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Or you could just tell them directly, rather than waiting for them to get that info by other means.
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Originally Posted by Ogi
If my data is mined I want it to show I *was* interested in incarnates, ran them under the shards system and stopped dead on iTrials.
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Story Arcs I created:
Every Rose: (#17702) Villainous vs Legacy Chain. Forget Arachnos, join the CoT!
Cosplay Madness!: (#3643) Neutral vs Custom Foes. Heroes at a pop culture convention!
Kiss Hello Goodbye: (#156389) Heroic vs Custom Foes. Film Noir/Hardboiled detective adventure!
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I think you are right, Scarlet. Zwillinger is very interactive and attentive, and the huge growth of the thread condemning the spandex-butted CoT costumes got the attention of the Devs, and the Devs, bless their hearts, have demonstrated that they will try to do right. At the moment, they think the Well is Compelling Story-telling, while we are objecting that it derails the freedom of cosmology that was one of the most attractive features of CoH.|
Originally Posted by Scarlet Shocker
I prefer to give Zwillinger and the rest of the CC team the benefit of the doubt. They'll come back from the holiday break and realise this needs to be managed better and I trust him to realise this is a big problem and to speak with the people that need to know and to come back to us.
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What is surprising to me is the possibility that the Devs may truly not understand that "the little foxes spoil the vineyards." Getting two-shotted in the trials is like a Yellow Dawn with Hamidon: the playerbase will figure a way around it in time. But if what is two-shotting you is, in the player's estimation, ridiculous, then you just honk the player off. A sniper, say, with XYZ bullets shooting you from a tower is one thing, a "numpty with a rock" offing your Incarnate self is quite another. Do they not understand that?
Perhaps not initially.
I tend to feel, as you do, that this will go up the food chain, and, allowing for the inevitable passion and rhetoric, the meat of the matter will be considered.
"How do you know you are on the side of good?" a Paragon citizen asked him. "How can we even know what is 'good'?"
"The Most High has spoken, even with His own blood," Melancton replied. "Surely we know."
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Eh, I think we'll already see a pick up of the story soon enough- they've talked about tying up the Praetoria arc and moving on to other Incarnate threats. Most of those trials never seemed very "incarnate" for story. They always felt like trials & events that were originally written for lower-level heroes/villains and then were loosely ported to "incarnate" stuff to appease the people clamoring for endgame content. They'd have been pretty neat trials for all my level 15-35 characters, but they really don't seem to fit the story of "being an incarnate" very well. |
Originally Posted by Kitsune9tails
I suggest people use this thread to vet very specific, bulleted lists of things they would like to see going forward with the playerbase.
If the playerbase doesn't reveal gaping problems with the idea, shoot it over to Zwillinger and Avatea. They may not agree, but we can try to make sure they know and understand. Even if we fail to do that, it's better than not trying. After all, apparently the Devs are getting ready to look at Tankers, therefore anything is possible, right? |
Once we move to the shivan and or Rularuu, things will see better. Heck, if you took the core mechanics of the existing trials but just changed the story to match the expectations for "incarnate" most of these complaints would be moot.
(Except mine- I'd still prefer more trial-like events spread throughout the full range of trials (maybe a new one unlocking every 5 levels) than a single new step in the Incarnate system.)
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I think it's a perspective thing.|
Originally Posted by Melancton
What is surprising to me is the possibility that the Devs may truly not understand that "the little foxes spoil the vineyards." Getting two-shotted in the trials is like a Yellow Dawn with Hamidon: the playerbase will figure a way around it in time. But if what is two-shotting you is, in the player's estimation, ridiculous, then you just honk the player off. A sniper, say, with XYZ bullets shooting you from a tower is one thing, a "numpty with a rock" offing your Incarnate self is quite another. Do they not understand that?
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From the Dev's perspective (I imagine), it's not a 'numpty with a rock' doing the, er, heavy lifting. It's the Telepathists psychically convincing you that you can be defeated by a thrown rock, which is arguably comic-book-sensible.
Since they designed the trial, and this element makes total sense to them, they thought it would be self-evident to the players as well, and did not make the Telepathists' effect on the situation graphically and dramatically convincing enough to counter our own perspective on how powerful our characters should be in the narrative.
If you see Superman in the comics get hurt by a thrown rock due to telepathic interference, you think, "Someone came up with an interesting way around Superman's invulnerability! Golly gee, how will he get out of this one?"
But when it happens to YOU, that's not going to be your first reaction. Like Superman himself, you are going to think, "HAX!"
Welll maybe Superman wouldn't think exactly that
but you get the idea.It's something that often happens to writers; since they are looking at their story from the 'backstage side', they occaisionally have to be reminded that some story elements are not as obvious or convincing before you know the dark secret behind it.
Story Arcs I created:
Every Rose: (#17702) Villainous vs Legacy Chain. Forget Arachnos, join the CoT!
Cosplay Madness!: (#3643) Neutral vs Custom Foes. Heroes at a pop culture convention!
Kiss Hello Goodbye: (#156389) Heroic vs Custom Foes. Film Noir/Hardboiled detective adventure!
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Originally Posted by Kitsune9tails
I think it's a perspective thing.
From the Dev's perspective (I imagine), it's not a 'numpty with a rock' doing the, er, heavy lifting. It's the Telepathists psychically convincing you that you can be defeated by a thrown rock, which is arguably comic-book-sensible. Since they designed the trial, and this element makes total sense to them, they thought it would be self-evident to the players as well, and did not make the Telepathists' effect on the situation graphically and dramatically convincing enough to counter our own perspective on how powerful our characters should be in the narrative. If you see Superman in the comics get hurt by a thrown rock due to telepathic interference, you think, "Someone came up with an interesting way around Superman's invulnerability! Golly gee, how will he get out of this one?" But when it happens to YOU, that's not going to be your first reaction. Like Superman himself, you are going to think, "HAX!" Welll maybe Superman wouldn't think exactly that but you get the idea.It's something that often happens to writers; since they are looking at their story from the 'backstage side', they occaisionally have to be reminded that some story elements are not as obvious or convincing before you know the dark secret behind it. |
I think I already said, that I got the general gist of the plot. I just happen to think that it's incredibly weak and stupid. It cannot exist in isolation because if six seers and some pedestrians with rocks take down a superteam of the Avengers, X-Men & JLA combined, then Cole suddenly doesn't have a single damned thing to worry about. Atlas Park is toast!
Thelonious Monk
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But in the above "super team gets beaten to pulp" doesnt the team generally reform, come up with *another* plan, and then beat said enemy into pulp?|
Originally Posted by Scarlet Shocker
I think I already said, that I got the general gist of the plot. I just happen to think that it's incredibly weak and stupid. It cannot exist in isolation because if six seers and some pedestrians with rocks take down a superteam of the Avengers, X-Men & JLA combined, then Cole suddenly doesn't have a single damned thing to worry about. Atlas Park is toast!
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Seems like people dont want a 2nd attempt at anything
and yes, i do honestly believe that in a storyline *this* big, there should be a setback for the players storyline wise...
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I can handwave the Telepathists as being a type of enemy that is brand new to the setting (and possibly connected with Mother Mayhem's mental domination of Penny).|
Originally Posted by Scarlet Shocker
I think I already said, that I got the general gist of the plot. I just happen to think that it's incredibly weak and stupid. It cannot exist in isolation because if six seers and some pedestrians with rocks take down a superteam of the Avengers, X-Men & JLA combined, then Cole suddenly doesn't have a single damned thing to worry about. Atlas Park is toast!
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However, someone really should have caught the internal inconsistency within the same mission with the fact that the Telepathists can convince us to be defeated by a thrown rock, but not by a plasma rifle.
Pacification should either be:
- Removed upon zoning into the buildings or
- Be a visible radius effect around the Seers, or
- Be linked in strength to PR
...any of those would provide a reason that Telepathists can't rock our world elsewhere (blocked by line of sight, limited radius, won't work on Primal Earth period), while giving players a tactic to deal with it, AND a reason it doesn't enable the IDF to rock our world.
Story Arcs I created:
Every Rose: (#17702) Villainous vs Legacy Chain. Forget Arachnos, join the CoT!
Cosplay Madness!: (#3643) Neutral vs Custom Foes. Heroes at a pop culture convention!
Kiss Hello Goodbye: (#156389) Heroic vs Custom Foes. Film Noir/Hardboiled detective adventure!
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A competent villain would assure there couldn't be a second attempt, especially one that can make rocks thrown by pedestrians take down demigods when there are people with anti-tank missiles just around the corner.|
Originally Posted by Gangrel_EU
But in the above "super team gets beaten to pulp" doesnt the team generally reform, come up with *another* plan, and then beat said enemy into pulp?
Seems like people dont want a 2nd attempt at anything |
Considering that Tyrant has/had the capability to shut down the mediport with his warwalkers, strap some telepathists inside, port to Paragon, win.
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Originally Posted by Gangrel_EU
and yes, i do honestly believe that in a storyline *this* big, there should be a setback for the players storyline wise...
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If villains were allowed to be competent, there would be no heroes and probably no world|
Originally Posted by Ogi
A competent villain would assure there couldn't be a second attempt, especially one that can make rocks thrown by pedestrians take down demigods when there are people with anti-tank missiles just around the corner.
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Story Arcs I created:
Every Rose: (#17702) Villainous vs Legacy Chain. Forget Arachnos, join the CoT!
Cosplay Madness!: (#3643) Neutral vs Custom Foes. Heroes at a pop culture convention!
Kiss Hello Goodbye: (#156389) Heroic vs Custom Foes. Film Noir/Hardboiled detective adventure!
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Originally Posted by Gangrel_EU
But in the above "super team gets beaten to pulp" doesnt the team generally reform, come up with *another* plan, and then beat said enemy into pulp?
Seems like people dont want a 2nd attempt at anything and yes, i do honestly believe that in a storyline *this* big, there should be a setback for the players storyline wise... |
Sure that's a common notion and in a context of the game, we get to come back and do the whole trial again - but that doesn't' mean the mechanic isn't junk
Thelonious Monk
How should a demigod handle a crowd of angry civilians?
Ask Doctor Manhattan. You just teleport the ingrates away.
That would be an 'Incarnate way' of solving the situation.
Much in the same what the 'Incarnate way' of dealing with the BAF guard towers shouldn't be hiding from them or pressing a button every 30 seconds like a ridiculous fool.
You smash/blast/hurt them into the Sun.
I'm not willing to accept the 'thrown rocks' kind of shenanigans with any justification because I don't think being an Incarnate should be about dodging sticks and stones and running from guard towers. That's not epic, or cosmic or demigod-ly to me, and I have to wonder about the people who think it is.
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I think we have a long way to go in the Incarnate content before we reach Doctor Manhattan levels of power. He's practically Omega slot material.
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And even if we get to that level of power there'll be enemies with even more power who we'll need to defeat with a team of Incarnates - we will never, ever be the most power people in the game, because then the game would lose any challenge.
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Originally Posted by Scythus
I think we have a long way to go in the Incarnate content before we reach Doctor Manhattan levels of power. He's practically Omega slot material.
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@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
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Originally Posted by Golden Girl
And even if we get to that level of power there'll be enemies with even more power who we'll need to defeat with a team of Incarnates - we will never, ever be the most power people in the game, because then the game would lose any challenge.
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There's a big difference between challenge and grind. These trials aren't challenging. Once you learn what to do with them they are relatively simple to do by rote.
What they lack in challenge, they make up for in dull, overly complex, boring unimaginative grind. They are not fun and are simply farmed for the rewards, whereas people run the ITF, Kahn, LG and STF because they remain a challenge (especially for non-Incarnates) require some thought and teamwork and actually remain fun
Thelonious Monk
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Just like every TF?|
Originally Posted by Scarlet Shocker
There's a big difference between challenge and grind. These trials aren't challenging. Once you learn what to do with them they are relatively simple to do by rote.
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What parts of the ITF, Kahn, LGTF and STF are more challenging than the Trials, and require more thought and teamwork?
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
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Originally Posted by Golden Girl
Just like every TF?
What parts of the ITF, Kahn, LGTF and STF are more challenging than the Trials, and require more thought and teamwork? |
They generally aren't more challenging with the exceptions of STF and LRSF which can be especially for non-incarnate toons. But they are a whole lot more fun. Why do you think they get run still for relatively lesser reward? Because they entertain
City of Heroes is a leisure activity that I pay to enjoy. If I'm not enjoying the content being delivered then there's very little reason to continue to pay to play don't you agree?
Thelonious Monk
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But wouldnt you say that say that "fun" is subjective?|
Originally Posted by Scarlet Shocker
They generally aren't more challenging with the exceptions of STF and LRSF which can be especially for non-incarnate toons. But they are a whole lot more fun. Why do you think they get run still for relatively lesser reward? Because they entertain
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I have to admit that although the normal TF's in general are fun, they end up being "huge sack of HP at end"... something which i *do not* find fun.
I actually want to have to move my characters, i want to have to *react* to a situation, instead of just being able to play completely drunk, unable to see the keyboard and *Still not die* [1]
This is why i do actually like the iTrials... Hell if it takes gimmicks to get people to move around the place (and yes i do include Apex/Tin Mage as the better TF's for this), then i am all for them.
[1] Yes, i have actually done this... i did have a huge drink problem a few years ago, and was still able to play the game without dying due to how basic the combat was...
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In that other game, the one with the Safety Dance and lots of things to stand in, drunk healers and tanks are the norm. Not the world first teams (on the world first attempts) but just about every raid that was in the gearing up phase. After a few months in The Chore it was either drink or go mad.
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Originally Posted by Gangrel_EU
[1] Yes, i have actually done this... i did have a huge drink problem a few years ago, and was still able to play the game without dying due to how basic the combat was...
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Originally Posted by Gangrel_EU
But wouldnt you say that say that "fun" is subjective?
I have to admit that although the normal TF's in general are fun, they end up being "huge sack of HP at end"... something which i *do not* find fun. I actually want to have to move my characters, i want to have to *react* to a situation, instead of just being able to play completely drunk, unable to see the keyboard and *Still not die* [1] This is why i do actually like the iTrials... Hell if it takes gimmicks to get people to move around the place (and yes i do include Apex/Tin Mage as the better TF's for this), then i am all for them. [1] Yes, i have actually done this... i did have a huge drink problem a few years ago, and was still able to play the game without dying due to how basic the combat was... |
I'm happy to admit under those circumstances you're probably a better player than me then.
You're right, fun is very much like beauty and each of us perceives it differently. But I'm not finding the new content much fun at all - even once I've learned it and know it works, the old content still seems much more enjoyable. Once it's easy, I've got the rewards I'm likely to get and I'd much prefer an STF to a BAF any day of the week.
Part of the problem is there's a lack of sense of purpose in the story - it's as though the devs have set themselves to obfuscate the players rather than entertain and that's a very bad for the long term health of the game in my opinon.
To clarify (again) I'm all for a challenge. I love difficulty - but there's a very big difference between a mission that's too difficult for my character than being way to complex for me and an oversized team to understand what's going on because of the overly complex needs of the mission and dogpile mechanics of norms taking us out with rocks are entirely symptomatic of this.
Thelonious Monk
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Except that there's no reasonable defense against it. That sort of thing is generally avoided in good comic writing, and so it doesn't belong in our trials either. Take, for example, the Avatar of Hamidon's Confusion attack. That is like the Telepathist mind-f**k in that it totally messes with the league's ability to deal with the AV. Note, however, that a few toons with Clarion can counter this crisis. That is comic-book-sensible, and is not unlike Charles Xavier stepping in and giving everyone mental protection in order to carry on with the fight. But as far as I know, there is no mental power in the game that can "pull a Xavier" and protect toons against the Telepathists. That is why that particular gimmick is so pernicious and unwelcome.|
Originally Posted by Kitsune9tails
From the Dev's perspective (I imagine), it's not a 'numpty with a rock' doing the, er, heavy lifting. It's the Telepathists psychically convincing you that you can be defeated by a thrown rock, which is arguably comic-book-sensible.
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Oh, and I want to take a moment to give a shout out here to anyone and everyone who has repeatedly pointed out the biggest single flaw in the Telepathist conceit which is the contradictory way in which it works inside/outside. None of the Telepathist/Rock-thrower apologists ever address this point; I assume they are conceding it, but if so there really is no point in defending any other aspect of this gimmick since even handwaving the logic of the debuff away still leaves fatal flaws that require even more stretches of twisted logic to justify them.
NOR-RAD - 50 Rad/Rad/Elec Defender - Nikki Stryker - 50 DM/SR/Weap Scrapper - Iron Marauder - 50 Eng/Eng/Pow Blaster
Lion of Might - 50 SS/Inv/Eng Tanker - Darling Nikkee - 50 (+3) StJ/WP/Eng Brute - Ice Giant Kurg - 36 Ice/Storm Controller
This thread is kind of pointless now.
It started with a very specific criticism about rocks on the TPN trial.
The developers looked at the complaints, shrugged and told people to play better.
Now the thread has evolved into pointing out the very real problems and failures in the Incarnate system and content, which the rocks are only a symptom of.
But there's no developers even in the office to read any of it, and the last thing they're going to do after getting back to work is drudge through 20+ more pages of stuff they didn't even understand when it was just about rocks.
This thread is pretty much only good for letting off steam that's been building for some people since this time last year. If you want to actually change anything and be productive, things have to be taken up a couple notches.
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