Those mourning the loss of usefullness of Placate (which I totally don't mind personally), but maybe Placate would be more attractive if it was a 5-target AoE like Taunt? Maybe with a -tohit debuff or something to help the team?
OMG! How like, totally kewl are these characters?!1
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Yep. I was at the summit and can confirm everything the OP said. It left me kinda stunned (in a very good way). My comment back to the devs was to the effect that I've often regretted making my main toon a Stalker (since the launch of CoV)... but no longer if this flies. I predict many will want to come back to the Stalker fold.
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Originally Posted by oreso
Wowzor!
These seem like -great- changes. I actually look forward to playing a stalker now  |
One man's terrorist is another man's freedom (or freem?) fighter; just as one man's exploit is another man's feature.
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Sorry, but several Stalker sets have AoE. This is a misconception. While it would be nice to have Spin on a claws stalker, if AoE is your goal, don't play claws, the same for Ninja Blade and Broadsword. Spines has AoE. Electric Melee has AoE. Street Justice has AoE. Kinetic Melee has a very awesome and viable AoE. It sounds to me more like a set choice issue than a lack of competitive AoE issue. Other ATs face these same issues. Lets face it, a dark scrapper or brute isn't exactly cranking out the AoE damage either. Primarily outside of the sets listed for Stalkers AoE, you have Fire and SS, and you have secondaries that add to that AoE as well, especially for brutes with the fury mechanic. Without changing the whole design of Stalkers you are not going to be able to address that, and if you change the whole design (i.e. make hide inherent and give us full scrapper secondaries, and the same thing with the primaries and AS and placate) you might as well just make a scrapper because they would be the same thing.|
Originally Posted by GavinRuneblade
Honestly, I'm glad they did something, but wrapping it into hp and AS means we still have no AoE, and I'm not sure that the AS changes mean that stalkers can compete with scrappers. That's why I was in the other threads saying don't buff hp, infact roll them back. But we'll see how it goes. Technically a pure buff is a pure buff, so hope it makes more of a difference than I think it will.
I just don't want them to throw us a crappy bone and then say "well those guys are just whiners who are never happy, we gave them a buff and they still don't appreciate it". I'm not sure this puts stalker st damage far enough over the top of scrapper/brute damage to make up for the loss of aoe. So I'm not sure it really addresses the core issue. Again, hope I'm wrong. |
Personally I love the sound of these changes. Having AS on my Street Justice stalker available for use in mid-combat as a builder would be awesome. And personally I use placate to make my uppercut autocrit against a hard target, so at least on my stalker these changes are pure win.
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I felt similar at first but from the design point of view, we already have two melee ATs that do better AoE damage (Scrapper and Brute). Giving Stalker more aoe may make Stalker too similar to other melee ATs.|
Originally Posted by GavinRuneblade
Honestly, I'm glad they did something, but wrapping it into hp and AS means we still have no AoE, and I'm not sure that the AS changes mean that stalkers can compete with scrappers. That's why I was in the other threads saying don't buff hp, infact roll them back. But we'll see how it goes. Technically a pure buff is a pure buff, so hope it makes more of a difference than I think it will.
I just don't want them to throw us a crappy bone and then say "well those guys are just whiners who are never happy, we gave them a buff and they still don't appreciate it". I'm not sure this puts stalker st damage far enough over the top of scrapper/brute damage to make up for the loss of aoe. So I'm not sure it really addresses the core issue. Again, hope I'm wrong. |
I can't make up my mind yet. I think they want Stalker to be the King of Melee ST dps. That goal needs to be met first before we get into anything else. Right now, Stalker is probably the worst core AT to solo a pylon due to less survivability and less ST dps on his own.
My only question to the dev is if all Assassin Strikes are going to be "normalized", meaning they need to at least have the same activation time. I say this because if Stalker is going to rely heavily on Assassin Strike to surpass other ATs in DPS department, then sets like Ninja Blade and Broadsword will have huge disadvantage since they have the longest activation time, while Kinetic Melee will have the biggest advantage with the fastest act. time. I am willing to look past "Damage Type" (Ninja does Lethal while Dark Melee does Smash/Negative) but activation time needs to be normalized.
What's left is to normalize all Assassin Strikes and improve Stalker's old sets (Claw, MA and EM)! You don't need to bring back the missing PbAoE attack. You just need to make the existing ones better! For example, make Slice a WIDER and LONGER cone.
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I swear I didn't make a 2nd account, make 40 posts then posted this here.|
Originally Posted by Pyro_Beetle
Sorry, but several Stalker sets have AoE. This is a misconception. While it would be nice to have Spin on a claws stalker, if AoE is your goal, don't play claws, the same for Ninja Blade and Broadsword. Spines has AoE. Electric Melee has AoE. Street Justice has AoE. Kinetic Melee has a very awesome and viable AoE. It sounds to me more like a set choice issue than a lack of competitive AoE issue. Other ATs face these same issues. Lets face it, a dark scrapper or brute isn't exactly cranking out the AoE damage either. Primarily outside of the sets listed for Stalkers AoE, you have Fire and SS, and you have secondaries that add to that AoE as well, especially for brutes with the fury mechanic. Without changing the whole design of Stalkers you are not going to be able to address that, and if you change the whole design (i.e. make hide inherent and give us full scrapper secondaries, and the same thing with the primaries and AS and placate) you might as well just make a scrapper because they would be the same thing.
Personally I love the sound of these changes. Having AS on my Street Justice stalker available for use in mid-combat as a builder would be awesome. And personally I use placate to make my uppercut autocrit against a hard target, so at least on my stalker these changes are pure win. |
I've been saying the exact above statements *every* time people mention Stalker AoE and I still stand by that.
You want solid AoE dmg? Then don't pick Dark Melee or Energy Melee, Mr. Brute!
Oh, you're a Stalker? Then don't pick Dark Melee or Energy Melee, Mr. Stalker!
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I agree, AoE is not the Stalker's game nature, we are lone wolves fighting the alpha wolves! Nonetheless, why do you think that Dark Melee and Energy Melee are not Stalker sets? My main being a DM/Regen Stalker (And no, she was not a chore to level at all |
Originally Posted by Leo_G
I swear I didn't make a 2nd account, make 40 posts then posted this here.
I've been saying the exact above statements *every* time people mention Stalker AoE and I still stand by that. You want solid AoE dmg? Then don't pick Dark Melee or Energy Melee, Mr. Brute! Oh, you're a Stalker? Then don't pick Dark Melee or Energy Melee, Mr. Stalker! |
), I don't really see what is non-Stalkery about it?
@Global: Difficult One
Playing on European Servers (Union, Defiant)
If a person turns down an idea, he turns down an opportunity to evolve himself
DM has AoE (Shadow Maul).
MA doesn't.
Plus you can supplement your AoE earlier now (level 14 with a lot of build sacrifices) than you used to be able to (level 44) and Judgement is Judgement regardless of AT. Yes, Stalkers are capable of doing AoE damage; the issue is that they do less than almost everyone else they would be competing for team spots with when using the same/similar primaries.
On topic, I'm reserving judgement on the changes until I see them in action. I'm happy with what's announced but have seen too many announced changes that looked good on paper that included hidden changes that wrecked the whole idea. It looks like a straight-up buff for now, though, so I'm hopeful.
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Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle
it has gone from unconscionable to downright appalling that we have no way of measuring our characters' wetness.
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Originally Posted by Brillig
It's hard to beat the entertainment value of Whackjob Wednesdays.
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Originally Posted by Leo_G
...
How do think so? Did he suggest this or something? |
Sorry, I meant EvilRyu (hard to keep track of the two to me
).And I'm somewhat joking but...not really.
I said it because he started the "how to end LOLstalkers mentality" thread a week (?) ago.
From what I saw there was nothing mentioned about any stalker changes and then that thread...just seems too co-incidental to me
Not that it matters.
Leader of The LEGION/Fallen LEGION on the Liberty server!
SSBB FC: 2062-8881-3944
MKW FC: 4167-4891-5991
As someone whose first Stalker is a /Regen, I'm extremely happy to have the HP cap increase. I campaigned for this hard when the first round of Stalker buffs came through, but, you know, it was just lively forum thread.
I'm pretty excited about the AS changes on paper. We'll see how they work out. Based on how beta for Titan Weapons has been handled, I feel confident that they'll listen to our feedback if we have suggestions on how to make the AS a useful attack chain power.
While I'd love certain more sweeping things, (like making Hide inherent and getting back something for it) or a way to get AoE into sets that lack it, those are, well, sweeping things. I'm happy for what look like some good improvements to the core functions we have now.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
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Actually it wasnt a coincidence, after the whole no titan weapons thing I pm Synapse in hopes of getting him to change their stance on the issue. He did hint to the fact they would be doing something for stalkers when I asked him if there will ever be an end to Lol Stalkers. That thread was just to kind of see what kind of ideas the community would have for fixing stalkers. Kind of a wish list thats all. I was expecting something around issue 24ish but nothing this soon.
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Originally Posted by Energizing_Ion
Sorry, I meant EvilRyu (hard to keep track of the two to me
).And I'm somewhat joking but...not really. I said it because he started the "how to end LOLstalkers mentality" thread a week (?) ago. From what I saw there was nothing mentioned about any stalker changes and then that thread...just seems too co-incidental to me Not that it matters. |
Bump and Grind Bane/SoA
Kenja No Ishi Earth/Empathy Controller
Legendary Sannin Ninja/Pain Mastermind
Entoxicated Ninja/PSN Mastermind
Ninja Ryukenden Kat/WP Scrapper
Hellish Thoughts Fire/PSI Dominator
Thank You Devs for Merits!!!!
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I believe Leo was saying that if you want to do solid AoE damage then don't pick those sets, not that they weren't Stalker sets.
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Originally Posted by JanusFrs
Nonetheless, why do you think that Dark Melee and Energy Melee are not Stalker sets?
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's doesn't make things plural.
I do think there is a difference between doing "some" AoE and "zero" AoE. It is the "zero" AoE that some of us really dislike. Dark Melee has a cone and while it's not the greatest cone in the game, you at least have an option to use it when the mobs are close.
I am less annoyed by MA and EM now since they lowered patron/epic requirement and I haven't tried that Spring Attack yet.
I just think it's a bad design to take out the only aoe in those two sets but it's too late to go back now.
The only option I see is to change one of the ST attacks to a Target AoE like Spinning Kick or a cone attack.
What's left is to normalize all Assassin Strikes and improve Stalker's old sets (Claw, MA and EM)! You don't need to bring back the missing PbAoE attack. You just need to make the existing ones better! For example, make Slice a WIDER and LONGER cone.
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I get what you're saying but I didn't give my point enough clarity in my earlier post (see my sig, my brain is basically a piece of bacon right now). Yes I know that some stalker sets have AoE and thank you and Leo for calling me on the bad wording.|
Originally Posted by Pyro_Beetle
Sorry, but several Stalker sets have AoE. This is a misconception. While it would be nice to have Spin on a claws stalker, if AoE is your goal, don't play claws, the same for Ninja Blade and Broadsword. Spines has AoE. Electric Melee has AoE. Street Justice has AoE. Kinetic Melee has a very awesome and viable AoE. It sounds to me more like a set choice issue than a lack of competitive AoE issue. Other ATs face these same issues. Lets face it, a dark scrapper or brute isn't exactly cranking out the AoE damage either. Primarily outside of the sets listed for Stalkers AoE, you have Fire and SS, and you have secondaries that add to that AoE as well, especially for brutes with the fury mechanic. Without changing the whole design of Stalkers you are not going to be able to address that, and if you change the whole design (i.e. make hide inherent and give us full scrapper secondaries, and the same thing with the primaries and AS and placate) you might as well just make a scrapper because they would be the same thing.
Personally I love the sound of these changes. Having AS on my Street Justice stalker available for use in mid-combat as a builder would be awesome. And personally I use placate to make my uppercut autocrit against a hard target, so at least on my stalker these changes are pure win. |
What I was trying to say is that the current game design so strongly favors AoE over ST, that I don't know if the above changes give us enough of a lead in ST to make up for that overall lack. There is a point where the ST damage is so high that even if all stalker sets were nerfed to remove all AoE it wouldn't matter. There is a point, a bit below that where I hope they make us end up. Since the changes are wrapped up so much in AS, I'm not sure that's enough to get us there until I play it. My other posts mention that if you give AoE back to the sets that lost them, make it weaker, I'm not saying make stalkers into aoe powerhouses, I'm was trying (and failing I admit) to say the game favors aoe powerhouses and I don't know if we can beat them yet.
Essentially, when we can be significantly ahead of scrappers on the rikti pylon test then we're there. Because all the aoe in the world doesn't help there.
Personally, until AS can kill bosses in 1 blow and our other ST hits have higher base damage without crits than scrappers, I don't think we're there. But I'm willing to be proven wrong.
Edit: I'm still not sure I'm saying this right. Bah.
"Hmm, I guess I'm not as omniscient as I thought" -Gavin Runeblade.
I can be found, outside of paragon city here.
Thank you everyone at Paragon and on Virtue. When the lights go out in November, you'll find me on Razor Bunny.
On the other hand, I often find myself with too much AoE when putting together STFs, ITFs, and the like. I love having someone in my TF that I can count on to go kick the bosses in the teeth while the AR Blaster and Fire Corruptor evaporate the rest of the spawn, but that's a rare thing for me.
's doesn't make things plural.
Yes, pigs are flying and hell has indeed frozen over. 
Talked to a couple of devs during the Pummit about stalkers and they are working on improvements to stalkers! Oh I so can't wait, now I just have to figure out what new stalker I am going to create. 
H: Blaster 50, Defender 50, Tank 50, Scrapper 50, Controller 50, PB 50, WS 50
V: Brute 50, Corruptor 50, MM 50, Dominator 50, Stalker 50, AW 50, AS 50
Top 4: Controller, Brute, Scrapper, Corruptor
Bottom 4: (Peacebringer) way below everything else, Mastermind, Dominator, Blaster
CoH in WQHD
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Well, you get no sympathy from me with regards to AoEs in MA or EM (really, those sets are mediocre to poor for AoE for *any* AT...and for DM, well, Soul Drain is indeed a loss, but Dark Consumption isn't much to cry about for AoE or utility....claws is another story, but yeah, you want AoE then pick an AoE set) but the quoted part...that might need some addressing.|
Originally Posted by GavinRuneblade
Since the changes are wrapped up so much in AS, I'm not sure that's enough to get us there until I play it.
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Regardless of how awesome they make AS with this change, it should be noted that...AS *isn't* an inherent power. You have to *choose* and *slot* the power...so wrapping up additional AT functionality into it (hidden critical isn't wholly attractive due to its situationalism, and demoralize is nearly as situational) may be a problem.
Since we have the option to not choose Assassin's Strike, then this Assassin's Focus should have some other type of utility for your other powers...something tied into the basic function (or a power we're forced to take) of the AT.
Perhaps, when (or maybe even before) testing starts, changing this Assassin's Focus to affect Hide instead of Assassin's Strike? Make it so, when you have 'Assassin's Focus' built up, Hide starts to randomly unsuppress? And when fully built up, changes the Hide status to refresh in [X] seconds vs 8 seconds? That way, as you're meleeing, you're increasing crit chances for all your attacks as well as opening the chance for Assassinations.
Just an idea, really. Could simply be Assassin's Focus point substitutes as a teammate in melee range (but does not stack higher than what we can now) while still offering that improved crit chance on AS? But it can't just be focused on AS since it's not a required power...
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I hear what you are saying... I really do. The numbers aren't out and nothing is official. Fair enough. But it looks to me like if if this goes live I'll be more than ready to spank'em and crank'em (aside). I mean... send me to the new DA, let me solo to get my new incarnate freak on and we will sort the details out later. WHOA!
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Originally Posted by Siolfir
DM has AoE (Shadow Maul)
On topic, I'm reserving judgement on the changes until I see them in action. I'm happy with what's announced but have seen too many announced changes that looked good on paper that included hidden changes that wrecked the whole idea. It looks like a straight-up buff for now, though, so I'm hopeful. |
One man's terrorist is another man's freedom (or freem?) fighter; just as one man's exploit is another man's feature.
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Originally Posted by EvilRyu
Actually it wasnt a coincidence, after the whole no titan weapons thing I pm Synapse in hopes of getting him to change their stance on the issue. He did hint to the fact they would be doing something for stalkers when I asked him if there will ever be an end to Lol Stalkers. That thread was just to kind of see what kind of ideas the community would have for fixing stalkers. Kind of a wish list thats all. I was expecting something around issue 24ish but nothing this soon.
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So what you're saying is....
Synapse is your inside source and he was the one that leaked the staff fighting powerset video a month or two ago!
*I'm done...back to the stalker changes...sorry!*
Leader of The LEGION/Fallen LEGION on the Liberty server!
SSBB FC: 2062-8881-3944
MKW FC: 4167-4891-5991
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No he isnt a source, i think he is one of the best devs because he responds to pms. I dont know anything about staff weapons outside of seeing the youtube video. If they all responded like he does we would not have to wait like 16+ issues to get something addressed
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Originally Posted by Energizing_Ion
So what you're saying is....
Synapse is your inside source and he was the one that leaked the staff fighting powerset video a month or two ago! *I'm done...back to the stalker changes...sorry!* |
Bump and Grind Bane/SoA
Kenja No Ishi Earth/Empathy Controller
Legendary Sannin Ninja/Pain Mastermind
Entoxicated Ninja/PSN Mastermind
Ninja Ryukenden Kat/WP Scrapper
Hellish Thoughts Fire/PSI Dominator
Thank You Devs for Merits!!!!
Well, issue 22 still sounds far away. When is issue 21.5 coming out? Is it already out? lol I haven't checked any of the new itrial yet.
The only thing that sounds awkward is Assassin Focus. It only says it builds up so your Assassin Strike can do critical. What if instead of increasing the "chance", Assassin Focus increases the amount of Critical Damage? Other games have that as well. This ways your Assassin Strike hurts more. This could be more useful when you have time to build up and use it on a hard target like Elite and AV. On regular mob, it could be way over-kill to use up all AF.
What's left is to normalize all Assassin Strikes and improve Stalker's old sets (Claw, MA and EM)! You don't need to bring back the missing PbAoE attack. You just need to make the existing ones better! For example, make Slice a WIDER and LONGER cone.
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QFT|
Originally Posted by GavinRuneblade
I just don't want them to throw us a crappy bone and then say "well those guys are just whiners who are never happy, we gave them a buff and they still don't appreciate it". I'm not sure this puts stalker st damage far enough over the top of scrapper/brute damage to make up for the loss of aoe. So I'm not sure it really addresses the core issue. Again, hope I'm wrong.
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Though the proposed change does make Assassin's Strike relevant again, and makes Stalkers a bit sturdier, it doesn't really address the core issue. My fear is for this buff to go through, then still see Stalkers selected out of high-end teams.
Stalkers don't need more survivability, they need more damage, because it is the damage output they are criticized for.
The best comics are still 10�!
My City of Heroes Blog Freedom Feature Article: "Going Rageless?"
If you only read one guide this year, make it this one.
Super Reflexes: the Golden Fox of power sets!
WARNING: I bold names.
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For the most part, 21.5 is live. The new iTrial is still waiting to get turned on though as they're still tweaking it in beta. Since the trial was supposed to be the centerpiece of 21.5 they kind of downplayed it.
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Originally Posted by Jibikao
Well, issue 22 still sounds far away. When is issue 21.5 coming out? Is it already out? lol I haven't checked any of the new itrial yet.
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I think that's a really important. Guys? Be considerate.|
Originally Posted by EvilRyu
he responds to pms.
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Whaaat?
Thought for the day:
"Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment."
=][=
I do feel like certain sets like Broadsword, Katana and Claws feel downright anemic without their Pbaoe...heck even spines as well since we now have the ability to suppress dmg auras. I feel that dark and energy are 99% ST focused but sets like the first four that that I mentioned balance out based on that pbaoe attack.
BUT!
If the devs want to keep things the way they currently are they should (like many others have already mentioned) balance out the Crit rate or ST dmg so it makes up for the lack of "aoe".
Honestly, I'm glad they did something, but wrapping it into hp and AS means we still have no AoE, and I'm not sure that the AS changes mean that stalkers can compete with scrappers. That's why I was in the other threads saying don't buff hp, infact roll them back. But we'll see how it goes. Technically a pure buff is a pure buff, so hope it makes more of a difference than I think it will.
I just don't want them to throw us a crappy bone and then say "well those guys are just whiners who are never happy, we gave them a buff and they still don't appreciate it". I'm not sure this puts stalker st damage far enough over the top of scrapper/brute damage to make up for the loss of aoe. So I'm not sure it really addresses the core issue. Again, hope I'm wrong.
"Hmm, I guess I'm not as omniscient as I thought" -Gavin Runeblade.
I can be found, outside of paragon city here.
Thank you everyone at Paragon and on Virtue. When the lights go out in November, you'll find me on Razor Bunny.