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The suggested buffs to bosses would negatively affect too many ATs to be reasonable - especially this late in the game's cycle; scaling AS with unbuffable damage means it's not worth slotting for anything but accuracy (since the majority of damage can't be buffed due to varying levels of mob hp); AS will remain interruptible, at least from hidden status, and AoEs are never supposed to have a 100% critical and anything that currently does is a bug (I've already specifically asked and received a direct answer on these last two). Placate could use a buff, but I don't think it's on the agenda and the timing issues would still be there even with the tohit debuff since the attack roll is made when the power is activated - which is either before or at the same time as when Placate goes off, since there's no set delay in the Placate effect.|
Originally Posted by Angry_Citizen
Fine. Here's my suggestion. Buff boss hit point level by 50%. Buff boss damage output by 33%. Buff boss mez resistance to 8, except sleep, which should be 3. Add greater access to powers for certain weak bosses. Then add a scaling AS. AS should kill a yellow minion, should kill an orange lieutenant, should wound a red boss to approximately 10% of its original hit points, should wound a +1 EB to approximately 50% of its original hit points, and should wound a +0 AV to approximately 80% of its original hit points, all assuming +95% damage, and no resistances. Keep demoralize, but remove our buffed hit points and damage modifier. I would be open to the PToD suggestion at that point, but frankly, it's probably too much. When in Hidden state, stalkers should be defense capped to all incoming damage. Placate should have a 45% unresistable -tohit for three seconds. AS should not be interruptible. AoE attacks should always crit from Hide and Placate.
The scaling would work like this. The AS damage component stays exactly the same as it is now, fully enhanceable. Then add another damage component that does the if-check against enemy rank that does not accept +dmg/enhancement. This keeps peak performance from becoming too broken (such as stalkers being able to three-shot AV's) while preserving theme and functionality in the majority of circumstances. With some work, this idea is very feasible. |
You're right; Stalkers don't really have a place in the game, and outside of killing n00bs who can't figure out how to move in PvP zones prior to i13 they never did. Anyone can stealth and strategically pick targets, and almost everyone can deal high single target damage. It doesn't sound like you'll ever be happy with this game, so have fun where you can.
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Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle
it has gone from unconscionable to downright appalling that we have no way of measuring our characters' wetness.
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Originally Posted by Brillig
It's hard to beat the entertainment value of Whackjob Wednesdays.
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Oh no, so Kinetic's Burst is a bug then? lol I thought it's a feature since they haven't fixed it. I am pretty sure Fireball is bugged as Hawk has responded.
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Originally Posted by Siolfir
and AoEs are never supposed to have a 100% critical and anything that currently does is a bug (I've already specifically asked and received a direct answer on these last two).
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What's left is to normalize all Assassin Strikes and improve Stalker's old sets (Claw, MA and EM)! You don't need to bring back the missing PbAoE attack. You just need to make the existing ones better! For example, make Slice a WIDER and LONGER cone.
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You know, unless your toon is buffed with many set bonuses, doing the mission at +4 isn't that easy especially when you are lower level. |
Originally Posted by Angry_Citizen
Fine. Here's my suggestion. Buff boss hit point level by 50%. Buff boss damage output by 33%. Buff boss mez resistance to 8, except sleep, which should be 3. Add greater access to powers for certain weak bosses. |
+4 only seems easy once you are an Incarnate with a lot of set bonuses. At that point, I think you've EARNED to be "god-like" because you've spent the time to become an awesome incarnate.
I hear complaints on the game being too easy so I tried +4 at lvl 26. Blah.. I died quite a few times after inspirations ran out. :P
Yes, the game can be easy when you have a lot of buffs/debuffs stacking or when the game setting is too low.
What's left is to normalize all Assassin Strikes and improve Stalker's old sets (Claw, MA and EM)! You don't need to bring back the missing PbAoE attack. You just need to make the existing ones better! For example, make Slice a WIDER and LONGER cone.
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It was listed as a bug by Castle before he left but since it never got fixed I and many others assumed it was written off as a feature and allowed. That it is a bug that they just haven't fixed (yet) was reiterated recently when I asked if all AoEs could have a 100% critical from Hide, citing Burst and Fireball as two examples of how it works well. The same PM also asked about completely eliminating the interrupt on AS.
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Originally Posted by Jibikao
Oh no, so Kinetic's Burst is a bug then? lol I thought it's a feature since they haven't fixed it. I am pretty sure Fireball is bugged as Hawk has responded.
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Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle
it has gone from unconscionable to downright appalling that we have no way of measuring our characters' wetness.
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Originally Posted by Brillig
It's hard to beat the entertainment value of Whackjob Wednesdays.
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Those sets that have 100% critical will have an advantage and sets like MA and EM don't even have an aoe to begin with. |
Originally Posted by Siolfir
It was listed as a bug by Castle before he left but since it never got fixed I and many others assumed it was written off as a feature and allowed. That it is a bug that they just haven't fixed (yet) was reiterated recently when I asked if all AoEs could have a 100% critical from Hide, citing Burst and Fireball as two examples of how it works well. The same PM also asked about completely eliminating the interrupt on AS.
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Oh well. I hope they don't fix too late because we are used to 100% critical Burst. :P
What's left is to normalize all Assassin Strikes and improve Stalker's old sets (Claw, MA and EM)! You don't need to bring back the missing PbAoE attack. You just need to make the existing ones better! For example, make Slice a WIDER and LONGER cone.
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100% Burst and BU refresh is why I rolled a KM/EA stalker in the first place...|
Originally Posted by Jibikao
Those sets that have 100% critical will have an advantage and sets like MA and EM don't even have an aoe to begin with.
Oh well. I hope they don't fix too late because we are used to 100% critical Burst. :P |
**Cries**
When something good happens to me, I can never enjoy it....
I am always too busy looking for the inevitable punchline...
BEHOLD THE POWER OF CHEESE!
You'll still get the BU refresh when Burst gets fixed - and it may not be soon in any case. But it definitely means "no more 100% hidden crit rate AoEs". 
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Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle
it has gone from unconscionable to downright appalling that we have no way of measuring our characters' wetness.
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Originally Posted by Brillig
It's hard to beat the entertainment value of Whackjob Wednesdays.
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Quite frankly you are wrong.|
Originally Posted by Angry_Citizen
Realism. Stalkers will always be broken. No amount of nifty new features will make them any better until the game itself is made to accommodate single target damage. That means bosses not being curbstomped so easily. I haven't the slightest doubt in my mind that my suggestion will not even be considered by those whose opinions matter, and probably not even by those reading. You are likely already typing a diatribe explaining why I'm a crackpot for even suggesting the things I've suggested. But that's what it's gonna take for stalkers to have a use in teams while still being relatively balanced. Yes, they will be gods solo against single targets. But they won't have much of a prayer against big mobs without very good tactics - which is exactly as it should be. The assassin fears the crowd. He does not fear the isolated individual.
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ST damage is quite viable in 95% of the game. The only part of the game that ST damage is not strong in is the top tier steamroller groups. This type of group represents roughly 5% of the game, at a maximum. A regular group throughout most of the game will value whatever contributions its members can and do make. Especially if they don't whine about their AT, how weak they are, how they are not contributing etc. and buckle down and do the damn job however they can.
This is not to say that stalkers are not an AoE capable class, because they are. My StJ/WP and KM/EA stalkers are both quite viable (and dare I say, even good) in an AoE environment. They both just happen to shine in a ST environment as well, and will do so even more if the dev proposed changes make it to live.
Not only that, but I would say that fully 90% of the possible builds in this game, across all ATs, function at least as poorly as a stalker in the 5% of the game that represents the top tier steamroller groups. Toons that are awesome to play, but slack in the steamroller game are common. And high end groups that will turn you down because you are a stalker are not that common, especially if you are a player that is known to contribute to the maximum of your ability, whatever that maximum might be.
Edit-Changing the entire game because you feel inadequate in the top 5% of the game is a bit ridiculous, and the changes that you do propose are completely out of line and overpowered, and would almost REQUIRE a team to take a stalker to be viable. That is going overboard, and reminds me of CoH in I3, when a team had to have a tank to survive and be viable. The modern game is about flexibility, and although a team might not be optimal, any combination of toons that are willing to work together can be effective, the stalker included.
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I think you missed the part where I suggested AS no longer be interruptible? Also: I didn't suggest to nerf the HP cap. I suggested nerfing the normal HP level.
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Originally Posted by DMystic
Yeah I don't see why it's necessary to change the Stalker Base Damage in your suggestion.
The HP increase is so sets like WP/Regen/IA and any other sets that might have a +HP power can actually get full use of the powers in them and I see no reason to deny those sets that ability. While your AS idea sounds good there would still be problems actually landing one although with the proposed defense buffs there would be less chances of getting interrupted, interruption is still very likely to happen especially in a teamed situation where the enemy mobs throw out dot fields. |
Doom.
Yep.
This is really doom.
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I disagree. Bosses are unreasonably underpowered as they are now. I miss the I3 bosses.| The suggested buffs to bosses would negatively affect too many ATs to be reasonable |
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| scaling AS with unbuffable damage means it's not worth slotting for anything but accuracy (since the majority of damage can't be buffed due to varying levels of mob hp) |
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| It doesn't sound like you'll ever be happy with this game, so have fun where you can. |
Doom.
Yep.
This is really doom.
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While I wouldn't be opposed to making at least regular and EBs harder (i.e. more dangerous if left unengaged, AVs and GMs are just another messed up game), your suggestion will just change the name of the game.|
Originally Posted by Angry_Citizen
Now, does anyone have a legitimate complaint about my suggestion? |
Knockback will just be the prime tool against them, kiting and debuffs will be the squishy solution while attack-chain focused builds for Brutes/Scrappers will be the non-squishy solution, primarily because, in a team environment, there will most likely be more than one boss per spawn.
And if all that is not a great option, turn bosses off your difficulty and roll with a smaller group.
It doesn't particularly value the Stalker, just inconveniences a lot of others (and puts Blasters out to dry because their BU+ranged attack chain isn't enough). So rather than curbstomping everything, bosses will just be a speedbump for incompetent builds/teams.
Throwing up a suggestion of my own: To make bosses/EBs tougher without making them ridiculous...what about 'phases' of the boss' life? Kind of like the council bosses transforming into warwolves or redcap Lts upgrading their rank when close to death, make it so more bosses do similar things, either unleashing devastating or dibilitating effects upon/before death or outright get a second wind and you have to fight them all over. The only means of getting by these may be taunt, mez or assassination.
That is, if the target is taunted, it will shut the target out of these powers when the trigger goes off. If they have a certain mez (could be holes, so stun/hold may not stop some bosses but confuse or sleep will deactivate that trigger) the trigger won't be activated for a duration. If the target is the victim of an assassination attempt (either killing them or not), the trigger will be deactivated for a duration.
Basically, you want to somehow curb these effects because if you don't, that boss may turn the tide on your team.
If you can't tell, I like unpredictability. Even a Stalker won't be able to stop a boss 80% of the time. It'll take coordination to deal with, and mindless spamming may result in the boss instantly planting a timebomb nuke and slipping into phase while it goes off...
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It's really not. Steamroller groups consist of just about any slapped-together pick up group in existence these days. And frankly, any group can be made into a steamroller group with the presence of an effective AoE damage dealer and something to keep the AoE damage dealer alive. When in any group situation, the presence of an AoE damage dealer is always better than a single target damage dealer. I'm not saying single target damage is worthless. I'm just saying that any person which focuses entirely on single target damage, or even primarily on single target damage, is going to be less worthy to be on a team than an AoE damage dealer - by a wide margin.|
Quite frankly you are wrong. ST damage is quite viable in 95% of the game. The only part of the game that ST damage is not strong in is the top tier steamroller groups. |
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| Especially if they don't whine about their AT, how weak they are, how they are not contributing etc. and buckle down and do the damn job however they can. |
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| This is not to say that stalkers are not an AoE capable class, because they are. My StJ/WP and KM/EA stalkers are both quite viable (and dare I say, even good) in an AoE environment. |
Doom.
Yep.
This is really doom.
Leo, I'd counter that idea with two possibilities, neither of which is mutually exclusive or which would preclude other options.
1. All Bosses get a sliding scale Resistance to All Damage which is broadly similar to what Super Reflexes has through its Passive Defenses. Basically, the lower the Current HP, the higher the Resistance (up to a hardcap). This would privilege single target damage in the sense that single target damage tends to be harder hitting per target, per attack ... which would then mean that it would be better/easier to finish off a Boss (or, as you note, EB) with a large/heavy single target attack which takes them to zero HP, rather than using a rapid fire series of little attacks which whittle the Boss down to zero HP in relentless stages (with each successive attack becoming more and more heavily resisted). The "tech" for such an approach already exists (re: Super Reflexes) and implementation would merely require database editing and QA playtest proofing. Note that such a change would advantage "heavy hitter" types (such as Scrappers, Brutes, Blasters and Stalkers) to the detriment of lower damage throughput ATs (Defenders especially, but also Tankers and Dominators to some extent). This would be a bit of a wash for Controllers, because of how Containment works for them, while perversely improving the value of Scourge for Corruptors, by making extra damage "work" for them when the Scaling Resists start climbing in response to Damage Taken.
Something like this would operate in a manner broadly similar to how it is best to "finish" Freakshow quickly when their HP gets low, so they don't have time to activate Dull Pain ... or how it is best practice to quickly defeat (or control) a Crey Paragon Protector when their HP gets low to prevent them from successfully activating their MINUTES of Glory (or equivalent Tier 9 effect). This then creates a circumstance in which heavy hitting single target attacks, in general ... and Assassin Strike, in particular ... are "given" a useful, tactical, battlefield role which is currently not present.
2. All Bosses and EBs are given a "reactive/responsive" power effect that temporarily buffs up the Defense and Resistance of the Boss when they are hit with AoE Attack powers (Cone, PBAoE, AoE), which can be stacked up to 5 times. This basically "discourages" the use of AoE powers (but doesn't preclude their use) in the vicinity of Boss Foes, since it reduces the "effectiveness" of AoE attacks against Bosses (more Misses, better Resistances against All Damage). The problem with this approach is that it becomes far too easy to Grief other players on Teams (let alone self!) by using indiscriminate AoE in all situations ... and also unfairly penalizes powersets which are more AoE oriented (such as Titan Weapons).
I consider this sort of reactive self-buffing in response to (AoE) Damage Taken to be an inferior mechanic for achieving an end of buffing Boss+ survivability against all AoE Damage effects.
It's the end. But the moment has been prepared for ...
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Its not by such a wide margin to be more than barely noticeable, especially when you consider melee toons. It takes a fair amount of effort for a melee AoE-centric toon to be effective. While they are trying to gather their mob together to leverage their PBAoE powers and cones, you should have already put down several enemies with your strong single target powers, especially the bosses. So they are flashy, you are effective, and the team marches on.|
Originally Posted by Angry_Citizen
I'm just saying that any person which focuses entirely on single target damage, or even primarily on single target damage, is going to be less worthy to be on a team than an AoE damage dealer - by a wide margin.
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Originally Posted by Angry_Citizen
So, fellow advocates of stalker buffing, do you run around in teams whining about how weak you are to the point where your functionality begins to suffer? No? Didn't think so. Guess that makes the person I'm quoting.. well, it certainly makes him something.
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Originally Posted by Angry_Citizen
So what's my MA or DM stalker supposed to do, curl up and weep?
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Edit-please note that every AT in the game has powersets that are less effective than the rest. Some sets are awesome and some are less so, but for thematic reasons still get played. Tried playing a Battleaxe toon recently? How about a Psy blast, or electric blast set. How about a Trick Arrow. The fact is that some sets are going to be more powerful than others because of specific powers, and some combinations are going to be awesomely effective because of game mechanics. Purely thematic choices are never going to be as effective as min/maxed ones, and even if you change the game like you want to, that is not going to change that fact. People who play min/maxed toons will just change what they are playing to have the new min/max FotM.
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I really don't think any suggestion which globally nerfs other ATs is going to be taken seriously 7 years into the game's lifespan.
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Originally Posted by Redlynne
Leo, I'd counter that idea with two possibilities, neither of which is mutually exclusive or which would preclude other options.
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When something good happens to me, I can never enjoy it....
I am always too busy looking for the inevitable punchline...
BEHOLD THE POWER OF CHEESE!
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Same thing they do on the other Melee ATs, go out and kick butt. |
Originally Posted by Angry_Citizen
It's really not. Steamroller groups consist of just about any slapped-together pick up group in existence these days. And frankly, any group can be made into a steamroller group with the presence of an effective AoE damage dealer and something to keep the AoE damage dealer alive. When in any group situation, the presence of an AoE damage dealer is always better than a single target damage dealer. I'm not saying single target damage is worthless. I'm just saying that any person which focuses entirely on single target damage, or even primarily on single target damage, is going to be less worthy to be on a team than an AoE damage dealer - by a wide margin.
So, fellow advocates of stalker buffing, do you run around in teams whining about how weak you are to the point where your functionality begins to suffer? No? Didn't think so. Guess that makes the person I'm quoting.. well, it certainly makes him something. So what's my MA or DM stalker supposed to do, curl up and weep? |
Really, the lack of AOE in those sets is a non issue. If you value AOE so much, you shouldn't have picked MA or DM as your primary to begin with.
This isn't to say I wouldn't have prefered other power removed, but that's not what happened.
I hate that StJ doesn't have Rib Cracker, not because of the lack of -Resist but because of the lack of the Knee Attack Animation. So guess what? I don't roll a StJ Stalker.
If AOE is all important, roll a ELM Stalker and go to town, then smile when it gets buffed in i22, and at that point, ELM really will become best on a Stalker.
BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection
I really hope that the I22 changes make Dual Blades on stalkers more fun.
Having Sweep and Empower tied to AS makes them so unfun to use right now (not to mention Build Up starting the combo).
Being able to use AS quickly, and easily out of hide will allow those combos to be used more often and in more situations.
When something good happens to me, I can never enjoy it....
I am always too busy looking for the inevitable punchline...
BEHOLD THE POWER OF CHEESE!
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I know. Part of the balance between AoE-oriented and ST-oriented sets is that AoE set doesn't have very good ST attack. Well, Spines and Elec will have an awesome ST attack later, while sets like MA and EM will lag behind even more.
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Originally Posted by BrandX
If AOE is all important, roll a ELM Stalker and go to town, then smile when it gets buffed in i22, and at that point, ELM really will become best on a Stalker. |
What's left is to normalize all Assassin Strikes and improve Stalker's old sets (Claw, MA and EM)! You don't need to bring back the missing PbAoE attack. You just need to make the existing ones better! For example, make Slice a WIDER and LONGER cone.
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I have thought about the same, Test_Rat. I think Stalker DB will be more appreciated with the coming changes, if too much won't be changed, of course, because it offers stalkers another relatively AoE heavy set.
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Originally Posted by Test_Rat
I really hope that the I22 changes make Dual Blades on stalkers more fun.
Having Sweep and Empower tied to AS makes them so unfun to use right now (not to mention Build Up starting the combo). Being able to use AS quickly, and easily out of hide will allow those combos to be used more often and in more situations. |
@Global: Difficult One
Playing on European Servers (Union, Defiant)
If a person turns down an idea, he turns down an opportunity to evolve himself
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And that's fine imo. Do I wish Thunder Kick would get replaced in MA by Dragon's Tail? Yes! YES I DO!|
Originally Posted by Jibikao
I know. Part of the balance between AoE-oriented and ST-oriented sets is that AoE set doesn't have very good ST attack. Well, Spines and Elec will have an awesome ST attack later, while sets like MA and EM will lag behind even more.
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But they seem relunctant to do that. :/
I might be willing to accept Crane Kick being replaced (due to most people hating the KB, is why I say CK) for Dragon's Tail, IF and only IF they give Cobra Strike, Crane Kick's animation as an alternate.
But, yes, I don't expect every set to be even, and with these changes, my guess is that Martial Arts and Energy Melee will still out ST DPS ELM, but admittedly, ELM will likely have enough ST DPS most people won't care.
But still, I'm okay with this. If you're going to have a list of power sets, then some of those power sets are going to be on the bottom.
Now when I say this and I am okay with this, this doesn't include new pay for them sets, which I think if they expect people to pay for new sets, then they'll have to be pretty decent sets overall.
BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection
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I am glad to see this change the devs have in store for Stalkers, for Dual Blades, but at the same time, DB falls in line with StJ for me. It's lack of Typhoon's Edge, ruins the set for me. Not because it's some monster of damage attack, but because the attack to me is just a major part of the DB set.|
Originally Posted by JanusFrs
I have thought about the same, Test_Rat. I think Stalker DB will be more appreciated with the coming changes, if too much won't be changed, of course, because it offers stalkers another relatively AoE heavy set.
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But yes, seeing the combo's be made easier to use for DB if this change goes through, is an awesome plus, and does make for a more AOE set for Stalkers, that people may actually play more of.
BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection
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Have they changed the power design team after Castle left? Were Synapse and A. Hawk here years ago? |
Originally Posted by BrandX
And that's fine imo. Do I wish Thunder Kick would get replaced in MA by Dragon's Tail? Yes! YES I DO!
But they seem relunctant to do that. :/ I might be willing to accept Crane Kick being replaced (due to most people hating the KB, is why I say CK) for Dragon's Tail, IF and only IF they give Cobra Strike, Crane Kick's animation as an alternate. But, yes, I don't expect every set to be even, and with these changes, my guess is that Martial Arts and Energy Melee will still out ST DPS ELM, but admittedly, ELM will likely have enough ST DPS most people won't care. But still, I'm okay with this. If you're going to have a list of power sets, then some of those power sets are going to be on the bottom. Now when I say this and I am okay with this, this doesn't include new pay for them sets, which I think if they expect people to pay for new sets, then they'll have to be pretty decent sets overall. |
The new power team tends to think if it's something that is under-performing and broken, then it needs to be fixed if they have the time for it. MA and EM got their only pbaoe taken out but they didn't really get anything in return (except for Assassin Strike which every primary has it). They eventually improved Eagle Claw a bit but Energy Melee didn't get anything but one big nerf in ET.
I really wish they could do more. We don't have to add another pboae but both sets need a bit more love. Maybe more control options or -regen debuff or whatever.
I mean just look at Street Justice. Eagle Claw used to have the highest critical damage but Crushing Uppercut beats it by a pretty large margin. I understand CU has 25s recharge but it actually activates a bit faster than Eagle and has 13' range.
Kinetic Melee may not have the best aoe or ST damage but it has an interesting feature in concentrated strike. EM has redundant stun effects and MA has like jack-of-all-trades effects with kb, stun, immb.
What's left is to normalize all Assassin Strikes and improve Stalker's old sets (Claw, MA and EM)! You don't need to bring back the missing PbAoE attack. You just need to make the existing ones better! For example, make Slice a WIDER and LONGER cone.
I remember when Synapse was hired but not A.Hawk...I believe he's been with us for 1-3 years? His joining date says December 2010...if that actually means he was hired. I know I didn't join the forum until months later after I first started playing.
Ninja/ninja stalker reporting in!
I can happily say that my stalker was able to take down enemies that were +4 in short notice and I only have the uncommon (left) agility alpha!
Minions would lose 99% total health from a level 3 AS ( I charge it one the guy with less health then hit the strongest one after switching targets)
Im cheerfully soloing missions spawned for +1 x8 astoria mobs. So I can honestly say VICTORY for stalkers. Atleast ninja/ninja.
It actually gets to the point that I removed my hide proc, For example, AS animates faster/as fast as swipe from claws/widows. And since ninja blade is really quick overall, focus is really easy and I might say that if I find a way to chain gc>sd>AS that I could do better DPA then if I just used AS by itself. Granted, of course many situations call for the hidden AS
Sorry, typing on iPod, grammar sucks and I can't provide a build, I'll try to get it up before 9:00pm central time tomorrow
Yeah I don't see why it's necessary to change the Stalker Base Damage in your suggestion.
The HP increase is so sets like WP/Regen/IA and any other sets that might have a +HP power can actually get full use of the powers in them and I see no reason to deny those sets that ability.
While your AS idea sounds good there would still be problems actually landing one although with the proposed defense buffs there would be less chances of getting interrupted, interruption is still very likely to happen especially in a teamed situation where the enemy mobs throw out dot fields.