Possible I22 Stalker improvements

Interesting! Let's make it happen! Fire/Ice Stalker for me!

Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle it has gone from unconscionable to downright appalling that we have no way of measuring our characters' wetness.

Originally Posted by Brillig It's hard to beat the entertainment value of Whackjob Wednesdays.

... not that I would ever use this reasoning in a PM or anything...

Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle it has gone from unconscionable to downright appalling that we have no way of measuring our characters' wetness.

Originally Posted by Brillig It's hard to beat the entertainment value of Whackjob Wednesdays.

Which tells me you don't even know what I'm saying, you must not be capable of proper reading comprehension and therefore shouldn't be trusted with making any type of judgement calls or with a seat of criticism on the subject.

You can go home. I'll still be here playing melees, change or no.

I'd either go with the Tanker Port, substituting Combustion for AS...or the Brute/Scrapper version and substitute Cremate or Incinerate for AS. If AS is going to basically be that ST high dmg attack when not hidden, don't see any justification for having it.

Breath of Fire, on the other hand, is a very thematic and conceptual staple of the set. I know I love my Dragon type Brute to have his line of breath attacks because it fits his costume and theme very well. Wouldn't want to lock a Stalker out of a similar theme. You know people are going to want to make their Uchihas with Fire Melee/Nin/Weapon Master (or Fire) which needs a Breath of Fire attack...

I'm just saying is all...

Well, since you want to play this childish game, I'll entertain you.

Stalker VS Scrapper
1. Stalker has less HP but has Hide to start the fight which can potentially reduce alpha damage. Stalker can pick his target(s) easier.

2. Stalker naturally attracts less aggro unless you throw aoe around. I've tested this with my Blaster. I am sure it has something to do with stealth powers. I know my Scrapper draws more aggro which puts Scrappers in more danger. But on the plus side, Scrapper can hold aggro for the team which Stalker may have trouble with. That's one tactical difference. The team may need a meatshield or a team can use a selfish assassin.

3. Stalker has less aoe.

4. Most of Stalker's secondary sets do not offer more damage but Scrapper can get more damage from secondaries.

5. Stalker has assassin strike. With the new buff, Stalker should have better Melee ST Burst and Sustained damage with most set combinations. This is very logical because Stalker excels in ST while Scrapper excels in AoE.

6. Stalker can cause Demoralize, Scrapper can't.

7. Stalker can Placate a target and run away and come back with another stab. Placate + AS may not be attractive but the choice is yours. You still have a few seconds of safety by using Placate + AS rather than just keep on hitting.

8. Stalker and Scrapper have different sets. Scrapper has more variety mace/axe/titan/fiery and Stalker has energy melee and ninjitsu.

That's plenty of differences there.


Maybe that's not enough for you but I see even less differences between Tanker/Brute/Scrapper. As someone have said it, they can technically combine Brute/Tanker together and Scrapper/Stalker.

Yeah, I don't think Stalker will ever have Fiery Aura and Shield (put the theme restriction aside) because of Fiery Embrace and Shield Charge.

I can see Stalker having Fiery Melee though (although they may not want to port FM due to not being able to port FA)

I never understand the DoT bug with Placate. I know it doesn't bother me in pve but I think it does in pvp. Oh well, I don't pvp so screw them. :P

I never liked Breath of Fire Leo to me it feels out of place in a set that is focused on up close Pbaoe. I hate the whole step back and blast 'em tactic I feel like I'm wasting time when I could be in pbaoe range burnin' them up! I know Melee Sets like Elec and Dark have a cone melee Power but Dark is more focused on ST and Elec has only 1 fast recharging Pbaoe. When I use a Fire Melee Tanker it feels like Fire Sword Circle and Combustion are always up.

I would love to see...

Fiery Melee
1. Scorch
1. Fire Sword
2. Combustion
6. Assassin's Blaze
8. Build Up
12. Placate
18. Fire Sword Circle
26. Incinerate
32. Greater Fire Sword

Most likely though it's going to be what Sio posted so no Combustion just cremate.

Half of those differences are to the detriment of Stalkers (1, 3, 4, 8), some can be combined to shorten your list (3 & 5), some are circumstantial and/or irrelevant (1, 3, 7, 8) and you left out some that *really* make a difference between the 2 ATs.

Stalker vs. Scrapper:

1. Stalkers have controlled Alpha Strikes via Hide. Scrappers get no benefit from Stealth besides reaching the enemy before they can react.

2. Stalkers have Alpha Strike buffs without exception. Scrappers come in varieties that do not always support alpha striking.

3. Stalkers get Demoralize and Scrappers do not.

4. Stalkers get a self defensive + offensive tool in Placate while Scrappers get a team defensive tool in Confront.

5. Scrappers have more base HP.

And in those differences, 1-4 will be diminished to some degree because it will simply be easier and less circumstantial to drop them to take full advantage of Assassin's Focus + Assassin's Strike combo that will push Stalker's ST burst and DPS ahead of Scrappers *on it's own* *without the help of Stalker's 'gimmicks'*.

Have you ever made a dragon themed character? Or a demon themed character, for that matter.

Concept trumps min/maxing, IMO. It looks cool, it fulfills more concepts than those other attacks would and it's not particularly *ineffective* considering similar cone attacks (which are limited to 5 targets and 7ft range, BoF hits 10 targets at a 15ft range)...

Yes - they're mostly Fiery Assault or Fire Blast, though: the only "demon" Fiery Melee type still skipped Breath of Fire and I tried to maximize use of the swords.

Not that anything is likely to come out of the "fire" side chat (pun originally unintended, then proofreading exposed it and made me edit it to be more obvious before posting) until well after i22.

Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle it has gone from unconscionable to downright appalling that we have no way of measuring our characters' wetness.

Originally Posted by Brillig It's hard to beat the entertainment value of Whackjob Wednesdays.

Nice range and target cap...I still don't care for the power much because it feels so clunky in the set...but to each their own. I've always wanted to make a Dragon character in this game but the Lizard/Dragon Face options in this game is HORRID...ugh. I have made a demon or two but I mostly make angels. I'm not much of a theme person but even if I was I prefer function over concept any day(concept is important to me but I have my limits).

While standing back and looking at it, I guess Breath of Fire is superior to Combustion in almost every way...I'm mystified about why I hate the power so much because I am a Cone person! I mean I have Dark/MM and Sonic/MM blaster for goodness sake. *scratches head*

It has nothing to do with whether we're the most played or not. It has everything to do with preserving our thematic and tactical appeal while attempting to carve out a niche strategic role. The former are in abundance at the moment. The latter is absent. That is our complaint.

Still better to have the option than not, IMO.

Dunno why you favor combustion, it really does suck...but even then, I took it on my Energy/Fire blaster. Since he's a Phoenix robot, and flies all the time, it looks like he's tossing out fire by just flapping his wings (along with the dmg auras).

Another great thing about BoF, it takes range enhancements.

To be honest I hate all versions of fire melee except the tank version, all the others have way too much single target damage. Since we already got of a ton of that, I would be glad if they got rid of some of the single target attacks like cremate and scroch just so fire breath could make it back in there some where as well as combustion.

I agree, in fact the only fire melee toon that I played to 38 was a Tank. I like Tanker version the most as well.

Glad to see I'm not the only one having thought of Fiery Melee being ported to stalkers! ;D I have thought of some interesting ideas that could motivate making a Fire/ stalker instead of fire/ whatever-other-melee-toon:

I will concur on Siolfir's proposed proliferation list, but there should be a change in AS:

Assassin's Blaze should still be the name. The animation should be the same as claws and elec, where when standing in wind up mode, fire should assemble in the right fist. Then, when hitting the enemy, the fire should go into the enemy and explode into a phoenix like the one in RotP (Falcon Punch, anyone?); this explosion should then cause PBAoE damage, possibly with DoT INSTEAD of the standard demoralize (although -to-hit would be fair to add). This would help give fire the feeling of still being an AoE machine, while still dealing a big amount of ST damage (the PBAoE should not crit while hidden, to not make the power OP, IMO).

Of course, I thought of this way before i22 was introduced, so possibly this would be just too OP with the changes to AS (Though, the Falcon Punch animation should still persist, even if only ST! ;D).

Now, about FA, I think a new powerset should be "invented" to port over to Stalkers, to make it more thematically realistic, so the devs are not left standing with another "I can hide myself with electricity!". Thus, I give you Smoke Armor:

Tier 1: Hide
Tier 2: Smoke armor (Fire Shield, just as a smoke animation instead)
Tier 3: [Healing Flames smoke clone]
Tier 4: Temperature Protection
Tier 5: Smog aura/armor (Plasma shield, but with a smoke animation)
Tier 6: [Consume smoke clone] (This could possibly have some changes to it, I just cannot think of any as is)
Tier 7: Smokescreen (Yes, a Ninjitsu smokeflash clone, to go with the smoke theme, while also giving Smoke armor a Stalker tool; this version could also add some -to-hit or fire damage although that'd have to be burst and not DoT and a mechanics to make sure it wouldn't be bugged by Placat bugs ;P)
Tier 8: [Fiery Embrace smoke clone]
Tier 9: Either a RotP smoke clone or maybe a god mode the likes of icy bastion (Although that might be a tad too unoriginal to make it interesting)

Of course, I realise the above set would basically just be FA but with new animations, if ignoring Smokescreen. And yes, I realise many people don't like smokescreen, but really, it does seem more interesting to have a panic button as a Stalker than "just another PBAoE attack".

That's not my complaint. In order to "strategically" Assassinate a target, Assassin Strike must come out faster. The new buff will make sure Stalker has a fast, strong attack out of hidden. The new buff does not take away the current Hidden + BU + AS. You can't strategically and efficiently assassinate on a large team if the team moves faster than your signature attack that takes over 4-6s (if you use Placate) and has interruption attached to it.

Stalker's little "niche"? Well, the whole Stalker AT alone is niche enough. Stalker is probably the lowest population of all and it's even more apparent at lvl 50. I think even Dominator has caught up in terms of popularity. Yes, even with the new buffs, I don't think the whole playerbase would change much opinion but stalker fans like me will certainly enjoy a bit more because Stalker should be doing better ST damage while doing some AoE if your powersets allow it. I think the whole Assassin Class in general is never the most popular class in any game I've played.

Could there be more buffs? Sure. I don't mind seeing better Demoralize or a mix of -Maxhp debuff or -Special debuff or Purple Triangle debuff that some people suggested. We can keep asking until the dev agrees to it. :P

Let me get this straight ... you're bemoaning a (and I quote) lack of a niche strategic role (unquote) ... and yet when one is offered which doesn't change the entire game, to your liking, you shoot it down? Even better yet ... when a niche role is offered, which doesn't preclude other options for other options in the rest of the game, you still can't resist shooting it down?

I'm becoming more and more convinced that you, Angry_Citizen, don't know what you want ... let alone what you're asking FOR. All you know about is what you're opposed to, rather than what you're in favor of. Endless tirades of "Don't Want THAT!" are not constructive ... especially when you do not counter with concrete and defined proposals for what should be getting done instead.



You *say* you want a defined Strategic Role. I'm hard pressed to think of what kind of a Strategic Role *ANY* archetype can fulfill in the Solo Game ... which means that any kind of Strategic Role can only be relevant in Team and/or League Play. And if we're talking Strategic Role in Team Play, a disproportionate amount (although, admittedly, not all) of Team Play involves Task Forces and Strike Forces as well as Incarnate Trials in the Endgame. Most (but not all) TFs/SFs and iTrials involve AV/Hero battles at their conclusion in some form or fashion ... if not multiple such battles throughout their arcs ... and yet you are (dare I say, radically?) opposed to the notion of doing something as simple (and minor?) as giving Stalkers a way to offensively debuff/suppress the PToD on every AV/Hero as a way to actually give Stalkers at least one Strategic Role? Notice here that I'm not even trying to make a case for an ONLY proposition in this case, I'm merely trying to ADD and not SUBTRACT.

I could understand such a stance, on your part, if you believed that adopting such a suggestion were on the order of a "This or NOTHING!" proposition ... or if giving Stalkers the power to Suppress PToD on AVs/Heroes were some kind of either/or situation with another choice that precluded other options. Since that is clearly not the case ... one has to wonder ... if you even know what you want? And if you're not able to articulate clearly what it is that you want (aside from Big Picture Hand Waving Lacking In Specifics), I then have to ask the obvious question.

What ... pray tell ... are you contributing to this discussion, Angry_Citizen?



Because near as I can tell, your comments are hardly constructive to date ...

It's the end. But the moment has been prepared for ...

Are you referring to your triangle idea again? I've already given you several reasons why it would not fix stalkers. Let's go through them again:

1) AV encounters make up a fraction of one percent of the entire game. Stalkers have no role throughout the entire game.

2) Even if AV encounters were orders of magnitude more common than they are now, being able to drop their mez protection after a successful AS is not enough to keep stalkers from mediocrity (I will not say uselessness).

3) AV's, even as uncommon as they are now, are jokes to fight against. Giving us a special tool to allow them to be mezzed isn't contributing much at all. At best, it allows AV's like Statesman to be mezzed before they can hit Unstoppable, but lapses in Assassin's Strike due to misses or other unforeseen circumstances negate even that benefit.

Have you had enough yet? Sure, I'll grant you, it'd be funny and interesting to keep stabbing an AV to let a Dom keep them mezzed. But it's just - not - even - close - to - enough. Comprende?

I know exactly what I want. I want encounters to be hard again. I want single target damage to be useful, and then I want to see stalkers' single target damage increased to compensate while maintaining the status quo for everyone else. At present, more single target damage is only going to further homogenize scrappers and stalkers. I'm against that. Just because you disagree does not mean you should willfully fail to comprehend my arguments. It's rude and it's bloody annoying.

Fine. Here's my suggestion. Buff boss hit point level by 50%. Buff boss damage output by 33%. Buff boss mez resistance to 8, except sleep, which should be 3. Add greater access to powers for certain weak bosses. Then add a scaling AS. AS should kill a yellow minion, should kill an orange lieutenant, should wound a red boss to approximately 10% of its original hit points, should wound a +1 EB to approximately 50% of its original hit points, and should wound a +0 AV to approximately 80% of its original hit points, all assuming +95% damage, and no resistances. Keep demoralize, but remove our buffed hit points and damage modifier. I would be open to the PToD suggestion at that point, but frankly, it's probably too much. When in Hidden state, stalkers should be defense capped to all incoming damage. Placate should have a 45% unresistable -tohit for three seconds. AS should not be interruptible. AoE attacks should always crit from Hide and Placate.

The scaling would work like this. The AS damage component stays exactly the same as it is now, fully enhanceable. Then add another damage component that does the if-check against enemy rank that does not accept +dmg/enhancement. This keeps peak performance from becoming too broken (such as stalkers being able to three-shot AV's) while preserving theme and functionality in the majority of circumstances.

With some work, this idea is very feasible.

Well... it sorta is. The devs would only implement some suggestions. If yours is implemented, then better ideas that add functionality for the entire game can be dismissed on grounds that stalkers already have functionality.

You really think most team play involves an AV encounter? Sorry, buddy. I've been gone a while, but I'm not stupid.

Realism. Stalkers will always be broken. No amount of nifty new features will make them any better until the game itself is made to accommodate single target damage. That means bosses not being curbstomped so easily. I haven't the slightest doubt in my mind that my suggestion will not even be considered by those whose opinions matter, and probably not even by those reading. You are likely already typing a diatribe explaining why I'm a crackpot for even suggesting the things I've suggested. But that's what it's gonna take for stalkers to have a use in teams while still being relatively balanced. Yes, they will be gods solo against single targets. But they won't have much of a prayer against big mobs without very good tactics - which is exactly as it should be. The assassin fears the crowd. He does not fear the isolated individual.

There is no holy trinity requirement in this game so a niche strategic role is a non starter for the way this entire game is built. Stalker are not the only AT with this identity crisis, and in fact are better off than Blasters as an example.

I comprehend perfectly fine that you are incapable of grasping the meaning, let alone purpose, behind what I say. You keep talking about PToD Suppression as if that were the be all/end all necessary to Stalker Buffing which would solve all their problems in perpetuity ... which is, of course, ridiculous on its face. First of all, *I'm* not even trying to pretend that PToD Suppression would "solve everything" and yet you keep trying to make out that it might be seen that way ... hence your (and I quote) just - not - even - close - to - enough (unquote) ... complete misinterpretation and understanding of what it being offered.

You keep looking at ONE IDEA and thinking that's the Whole Solution. It isn't, and you do yourself a disservice by misrepresenting what I say (and have said) the way that you do.

<snippity>

Correction. You don't want to play THIS game ... you want to play a DIFFERENT game.

And now I know, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that you're PROJECTING ...

/em speechless

Do you HONESTLY believe that?

I think your definition of the word "some" doesn't match what's either in the dictionary, or with the vocabulary used in a Production Schedule for a game as complex (and old) as City of Heroes now is.

And now you're just making up excuses. If there ARE better ideas, I'd love to hear some. Better yet, I'd love for the Devs to actually implement some better ideas.

No comment.

Again ... you don't want to play THIS game, you want to play a DIFFERENT game. That's what your position boils down to.

I don't have to explain anything. Some truths are self evident.

It's the end. But the moment has been prepared for ...

*eyebrows raised*

Why Redlynne... just what are you contributing to this discussion? Anyone who invokes axiomatic logic in any venue that doesn't involve some seriously abstract mathematics has pretty much lost the debate. Good day to you.

Now, does anyone have a legitimate complaint about my suggestion?