Possible I22 Stalker improvements

This is more true NOW than it will be after the changes. After this change, you will at least be able to say you do better ST damage than that stealthy scrapper. And AS will still be worth using from Hide as an opener at least. Scale 7 damage and Demoralize is still a good deal and if used as the opener the interrupt (and even the animation time) isn't that much an issue. It won't be worth it to Placate+AS, sure, but that's never worked very well for all Stalkers anyway. I say good riddance to that. Placate will still be useful with an AoE or as a defensive option. People forget that it's not there solely to give you a critical. In fact its PRIMARY purpose is defensive. It's to make someone stop attacking you just as Confront is there to do the opposite for Scrappers.

A lot of things were proposed in those threads. All I am saying is that just because YOU didn't propose this specific change, it does not mean WE didn't ask for it. You can disagree with the change without attempting to de-legitimize it by pretending it's something the devs came up with entirely on their own.

I don't really get the angst over being Scrapper-like because I've always played my Stalker as a stealthy scrapper. I like the fact I am not as sturdy and am more focused on killing high-priority targets than some Elec/Shield scrapper who likes sweeping up the trash minions by the dozen. But I'd like something in return for being less sturdy and I'll take being the best boss-killer around as payment, thanks very much. Because despite what some of the self-proclaimed "experts" around here are saying, I play on pick-up teams all the time where the bosses DON'T die in a white-hot barrage of fulcrum-shifted AoE within 3 seconds so killing them is actually a job that needs doing. And surprise surprise, all those AoE fanatics out there are only looking for a dozen minions to crush first. That leaves me the bosses, which I am only too happy to murder for the team.

That's pretty much been my argument the entire time. We ask and suggest and nothing happens. What do we get? Scrappers with Hide. I've given up on devs ever really changing the AT to something we want. They seem to have this stubborn streak of never admitting mistakes and not reverting mistakes they have made. Just look at PVP.

This is the reason the problem exists. They created the concepts first and then assigned resistances based on the concept. They didn't ask themselves ahead of time if making so many armored, robotic, or otherwise tough-skinned enemies was going to be a problem for lethal damage dealers.

That coupled with the fact that mission arcs and task forces tend to be composed of primarily just one enemy type and you get people facing entire play sessions at a disadvantage instead of just the occasional enemy they have a tough time with.

Kindly stop using "we" as though there is some consensus here about what should be done to Stalkers. If you've read any of the big suggestion threads at all you'll see there's plenty of disagreement. There's no possible way they could do anything that would be accepted by everyone. Stalkers have been a Scrapper variant ever since they were created and I wouldn't still be playing them if I had such a big problem with that. People who want something radically different need to face the reality that no grand overhaul is coming. It's never been done to any AT. It's never going to be done.

If you want a buff/debuff stealth AT, VEATs are over that way.

I dont know about you but I would rather not take all day to kill stuff. I hate fighting +4 anything, which is why I do not like the incarnate trials until I get a few level shifts done on a character. The resists issue makes me not even want to play certain characters. I get that for thematic reasons carneis get psi resists and defense but it should not be so much where your character is crippled when you fight them? Then look at the psi issue against robots, true enough they dont have minds but has that ever stopped Jean Grey from doing damage with her mind? It should auto convert most of the psi damage to say smashing or something else.

Synapse TF, nuff said right there. This is the only TF where I actively seek out psi blast characters so it will go alot faster and tend to not want as many lethal damage characters because I know they will struggle.

I tend to agree with this, which is part of the reason that if I were trying to fix the melee AT balance I'd completely gut the system and only have two ATs.

Tankers and Brutes would be rolled into one and get Tanker defense modifiers and Brute damage and hit points modifiers with Fury, a 600% damage cap (lower than the current 675% for Brutes, plus it gives Tankers their "400%" cap with Fury adding up to +200%), and having defense primary and melee secondary for power order; they'd keep Punchvoke and lose Gauntlet so that there's a use to taking Taunt, and Bruising would go away since damage would be handled with Fury.

Stalkers and Scrappers would be rolled up also with the Scrapper powersets, hit point cap and damage modifiers, Stalker base hit points and team critical chance (with no radius limiting the range), and "hidden criticals" would come from a secondary pick of Hide like they do for VEATs - so a respec or just a dual build can "change your AT". Hide would simply be a 10th power in the secondary available at level 1, so you can pick which power to trade away for it or take all 10 and lose a pool power. Assassin's Strike as a power wouldn't exist - it would be rolled into Hide and would increase the critical damage of your single target attacks while the toggle is active.

I'd also combine Corruptors and Defenders as a buff/debuff primary, ranged secondary AT by using the higher of the two AT modifiers across the board and using both the endurance discount portion of Vigilance and Scourge for the inherent. If you want a ranged primary, play a Blaster.

Obviously this isn't going to happen because the game isn't in the design stage and all-new ATs were created for CoV instead of old ones revisited and then MMs created for the single "new" AT.

Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle it has gone from unconscionable to downright appalling that we have no way of measuring our characters' wetness.

Originally Posted by Brillig It's hard to beat the entertainment value of Whackjob Wednesdays.

On a melee AT I don't take all day killing stuff.

And we'll just have to disagree. I don't see a problem with their being enemies that take extra work for you to take them down because of your choosen power sets.

You're a PSI user, going up again highly trained PSI users, you're going to have a much harder time against them.

Going up against that mindless robot? Just be glad you can do anything period!

Yes, I think going by concepts is a great idea. And like people have said, if you don't want to go up against them, well there's always sticking to enemies who are really weak to you.

As for Jean Grey, I think that's more of a problem with the PSI sets which are much more based of Telepathy, which no, Jean couldn't use on robots, and less on Telekinesis, which Jean used a lot...so smashing damage!

But I think Psi users only have access to 2 Telekinetic attacks Telekinetic Thrust and Telekinetic Blast. Versus all the other more telepathic style abilities.

OMG, can we get *someone* to do some math for this? I mean, I can try but I most likely may screw some numbers up...

So let's just take the 'opener with BU window' scenario...so 8 seconds.

A. Assassin's Eclipse (hidden, 3sec animation) > Smite > Midnight Grasp > Siphon Life > Smite (lol no idea if that little chain is even possible or how much recharge)

And B. Midnight Grasp > Smite > Siphon Life > Assassin's Eclipse (unhidden 1sec animation, 3 AF so 100% crit) > Shadow Punch > Smite

Base values, no slotting, not counting for base crit values, only the sure-fire crits, A = around 800 points of damage and a demoralize effect during that chain. B = around 880 points of damage with no demoralize. Even if that last smite in B can't fit in, that's still around 810 dmg, around equal, really.

Demoralize *ISN'T* that valuable to make or break this deal.

My math may be off, but I can feel that, no matter how you cut it, *not* starting with AS will be more overall damage, not to mention it's plain simple. My beef with this is, Stalker's premiere style and tactics involve using Placate and/or pushing out that AS at the start. These changes make that *inferior* to just jumping at the foe and mashing buttons.

Siolfir? Somebody? Can you do some math?

Me going by feel alone, I get the impression that:
-Placate > AS will be a hinderance and a poor use of AS.
-AS from hide will only be, at most, equivalent to just using a high powered ST attack (and most likely inferior to just using an AoE)
-Using BU with hidden AS will not be worth it either.

That's 3 little dibbets of Stalker made obsolete rather than improved upon...

Seeing as how the best DPS chain for Dark Melee is Smite > MG > Smite > SL > Repeat, I dont see why those chains wouldn't work.

as for the rest of it. Opening with Assassin Strike from the hidden state will be the best DPS.

Using Placate + Assassin Strike is also some of the best DPS. In theory. The problem with the theory is that in content where you'd want to make use of this, you're either being hit by many enemies (regular PvE) so Placate isn't helping much (this is also going on the thinking that you're not softcapped), when surrounded by enemies placate the one, then get hit by the other and lose the hidden status.

Now, for ST DPS against the hard targets, Placate doesn't work as well, they tend to see through hidden status, even softcapped, they have a better than 5% chance to hit you, and usually they do something to make Placate + Assassin Strike fail period.

At least in my experience with a softcapped KM/WP. Placate + Assassin Strike may be the most awesome of DPS potential and burst damage in one 1-2 power combo, but it's also END intensive, and if it fails to deliver you lost a lot of time and end for nothing, while messing up your DPS that would of been better served by just continuing to scrap it out.

Really, the lack of AOE in some stalker sets isn't a problem imo. Yes, compared to Scrapper counterparts, Stalkers have less, but there's Stalker sets with lots of AOE if the player wants to go purely for AOE (Spines and ELM have lots of AOE, and come i22, I think we may just see even more ELM Stalkers as ELM wis already considered best on Stalkers, now it'll be even better).

With todays setup, I just don't see Stalkers being able to one shot as many enemies as people seem to be thinking Stalkers should be able to do.

I think making the Stalkers go become the best at Burst and ST DPS is the best way to go for the Stalker AT. How they go about it is a different story all together! But I do agree with others that gimmick + gimmick + gimmick + gimmick, just seems to be bad

Too tired to run numbers tonight and I'll be away from the computer for most of the next couple of days, but the question was after the i22 changes, so the out-of-hidden AS would be higher DPA than the hidden one (which is why the question exists).

If you get bored and want to run the numbers, there should be a post by Synapse with the damage scale for post-i22 AS out of hide (I want to say scale 2.76 but could be wrong); it'll have a 1 sec animation before Arcanatime and to convert scale to base damage you just multiply by 55.61 (stalker damage modifier at level 50).

Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle it has gone from unconscionable to downright appalling that we have no way of measuring our characters' wetness.

Originally Posted by Brillig It's hard to beat the entertainment value of Whackjob Wednesdays.

Well you haven't *proven* that to mean. Saying it and proving it are two different things. And I think you're severely underestimating Assassin's Strike with 100% standard crit and 1sec animation. Maybe Redtomax is wrong (away from home and on my mac so no Mids') or I'm reading things incorrectly but hidden Assassin's Eclipse shows to do 390dmg (unehanced) in 3 sec activation while hidden Midnight grasp does 275dmg+30DoT(so 305dmg) in 2 sec. The main difference between the 2 is, one still has Assassin's Eclipse recharged and is only 2 hits from firing it off at 278dmg in 1sec. Basically, one get 390dmg AS then 150dmg MG (540dmg) while the other gets 300dmg MG then 275 AS (575dmg). It's about equivalent (not really) with speed being the cost for demoralize.

If the '8sec BU window' isn't a viable scenario to examine, then look to the standard lvl 50 boss HP and see what tactic brings it to 0 fastest and by how large a margin. Because I believe it'd just be simpler (if not equivalently effective) to skip the old hidden AS and just smash with a high powered ST attack. Not only does it put you 1 step higher in AF (where starting with AS will still leave you at 0) but the tier 9 will be ready again sooner vs AS which already has a relatively low recharge.

And Placate > AS mid combat is less viable in the new game considering it reverts AS back to a 3sec interruptible animation vs the 1sec one. It's only the best DPS if your goal is to click as few buttons as possible. Even now, if a Stalker wants to kill a boss, it's a series of high burst strikes (often backed by BU), not just 1 or 2 hits.

And I'm starting to wonder if you're just joking, BrandX, or if you don't know what you're talking about. What is the use of high DPS in a 1-2 combo? What do you defeat in 2 hits in the mid-to-high lvls? Even by lvl 32, you're not 2-shotting bosses... Lts, yeah, but then so can a slotted tier 9.

By the rules of the new game, AS will simply be a toned down damage Energy Transfer when unhidden and with focus. Are you aware of this? And it'll recharge faster than the actual Energy Transfer.

Or do you not understand my vantage point? I've got no problem with AS being more usable and focusing on improving Stalker ST DPS and burst, but the way it's being done, throwing Stalker tactics (using Placate offensively, using AS from hide + demoralize, using BU with AS) in the obsolete bin and adapting a button mash-fest that Brutes do. If demoralize was worth it, perhaps. But it only lasts 8 seconds, doesn't stack, can't be enhanced and requires you to take a hit in DPS to keep up.

I've read the whole thread here, but don't really remember all the posts (surprising, I know :P), but IIRC, your issue with the coming changes is that hidden AS will become obsolete, right?

If so, would it maybe make hidden AS, or perhaps Demoralize, more attractive if it added a debuff to the target hit? I don't remember if this has been mentioned here, but for example adding a longer duration -res or -Maxhp? Would you think that'd make hidden AS more attractive to use?

From my own stand point, let it be stated now that I am not a numbers guy. I don't really care that much for optimal DPS and all that stuff, so, speaking from personal opinion, I'll still use hidden AS in regular content, likely even teaming. That said, I do understand your worrying about making Stalker tactics less important and the motivation to play as scrapping stalker instead.

Perhaps, but it's just stacking more gimmicks on gimmicks, really. Personally, I'd just like Demoralize to be more usable, either by increasing its duration or the effects it already has. I remember when demoralize feared at a 50% chance (or maybe it was something like 38%), which was amazing...so was reigned back to 25%. I'd love for Assassin's Focus to improve demoralize like that...there's lots of possibilities there.

So will I. But then I have characters that are intentionally utilizing sub-optimal strategies for style, like my DM/WP Stalker who abuses Touch of Fear while waiting for placate or AS to recharge.

No.

You start counting when *YOU* start combat, i.e. activate a power. Because that's the instant you have chosen to initiate offensive actions to bring about the defeat of foes. Otherwise Snipes wouldn't be so looked downed upon since all the animation time occurs *before* the fight starts *and* before the foe is within range to retaliate.

But even then, big difference between snipes and AS is, on a team (and that is one of the key important circumstances that must be weighed here), it doesn't matter when *you* start the fight, it matters when the *team* starts the fight. With shared aggro and all, that mumbo jumbo about AS animation time happening before you hit is tossed out the window.

I'd rather AS just have the 1sec animation time when hidden. It seems too fast...but not if you consider you need hidden status to get it, via the beginning of a fight or placate...

When Synapse first announced the proposed change, I eventually took the stance that it was over the top. Probably only a couple others agreed while the majority shouted down at me, saying Stalkers need 'over the top'. I still think it needs more thought. The change itself, while really good, doesn't seem *that* overpowered, now that I've considered it more...but it tosses away practically the whole style of Stalker in the process...so you have to buff up other stuff to compensate? Then it starts to get more overpowered...

I'm saying they could just take a slightly different direction with AF. It doesn't take a bunch of extra tweeks (well the AT does, but not the AF itself) to make it fit...just think outside the box.

Well, Energy Melee is one of the sets that the dev think needs help. Energy Transfer was toned down 'cause at that time, there weren't that many "aoe-oriented" content. ITF is probably the start of it. We also didn't have game settings that allow us to increase mob size. Energy Melee was popular because it was a great set for soloing and pvp.

After they nerfed ET, the whole set just feels it lost everything. Its ST damage is great (not excellent) and yet it has one of the worst aoe-potential.

With the content focusing more and more on large team size and mob size, maybe it is not so wrong to have the old ET back. Stalker is the best candidate to do that ST burst damage.

We'll see how it feels like once we do beta testing. I think the new change sounds overpowered on paper but once you are on a large team, you may feel that your assassin job gets easier and yet it doesn't feel broken (since other ATs are either doing more AoE or having better buffs/debuffs/controls).

I just think there's nothing wrong to change something due different circumstance. The game is constantly changing. ET was seen as OP but I seriously doubt that ET is seen as OP now. In fact, I rarely see Energy Melee toons. Just like Castle thought there's nothing he could do for Stalker and yet the other devs feel because the game has itrials now, Stalker needs something to help them speed up assassination (whether through faster animation time, uninterruptable or both).

Now, what if Placate is supposed to be "bad"? What if Placate is never intended to be a very useful tool?

Think about it, when is the last time you see Scrappers using Confront? I know I haven't. Hell, I sometimes don't even see Brutes using Taunt.

I mean Placate is not great and is somewhat buggy. What if that's a bad power to improve upon? If I am soloing, I do use Placate more because I can do Placate + AS or a heavy hitter. Even if Placate +AS may not be worth it in the future, Placate can still stop the boss from attacking you for a little while.

Placate + AS is also a viable way to take down a boss that uses god mode when health drops to 10%.

I see it pretty often (Scrapper using taunt) seeing as how I use it to hold AVs attentions.

I've never seen scrapper using taunt much. I know night widow has it too and I've never seen NWs using it.

I can't imagine Confront is a popular choice for scrapper. Why should we expect more from Placate?

I took Placate but I don't put any slots into it.

The point is that we can't expect every power to be as useful so if Placate + AS sucks, so be it. It has never been that great and with the new buff, it gives me a reason not to bother with it much. I may still use it when I solo though.

You also haven't seen me soloing and holding the aggro of FIVE RIKTI MAGUS simultaneously for MINUTES (plural!) at a time before the Cavalry can arrive to help my MA/SR Scrapper defeat the dogpile. The challenge of course is to Not Faceplant while doing that, since those Rikti Magus aren't exactly "gentle" with their attacks.

The fun part was doing that *twice* in one run on Virtue ... to the shock and amazement of the other members of the Rim Assault Groups. And then I did it *again* on the next mothership raid right after that run. For quite some time after that, I had quite the reputation ...

It's the end. But the moment has been prepared for ...

When I mentioned Energy Transfer, it was to show a scale. This has nothing to do with Energy Melee and how it was balanced.

Just think about Energy Transfer itself and put it in Martial Arts, Energy Melee and the like. Not bad at all, really. Now take Energy Transfer and put it into something like Fire Melee, Ice Melee, Spines and the like. That's a disproportionate improvement, don't you think? That was the vantage point of it being overpowered when I first heard of the changes. Now? I don't really care because no body else seems to care or look at the big picture.

The usefulness of Confront on a Scrapper vs Placate on a Stalker has more to it than that. Just because Confront is seen as skippable on a Scrapper doesn't matter because Scrappers themselves lock their playstyle into mindless button mashing (Scrapperlock lol). Doesn't mean Confront is useless, it serves its purpose of fulfilling the striker who has armor and HP to tank. You could weigh the HP and tanking ability lost on how useful Placate should be, or that it grants something unique tied directly into the inherent of Stalkers, unlike confront....or that, looking within the scales of the melee ATs, Tankers are on one end and Stalkers on the other so Placate should be as useful to a Stalker as Taunt is to a tanking Tanker.

...yeah, many ways you could spin the subject to favor an argument so probably better to just drop it. All I know is, Placate has had some measure of usefulness before which is slowly diminishing with each coming change.

...and then you still didn't comment about the other 2 tactics I mentioned.

I use other attacks from Hide too. But with this change, there is no reason to even *try* to use AS from Hide. So why did they give us Demoralize? To not use it?

I have a feeling you don't actually *care* about helping a team. That's why I play a Stalker, because it's a melee focused character not particularly focused on doing max DPS, but in *KILLING* a target (or targets). Demoralize gave at least some reward for that.

Placate is a good power! Throw Spines, Thunderstrike, Concentrated Strike, Burst, One Thousand Cuts...and it used to be the best option for Assassin's Strike mid-combat.

Leo_G, you should know from dozens of conversations with me already that I don't give two-craps about pretending to be some psuedo-controller with my Assassin's Strike, so let's just skip that whole tired argument. Bottom line is I like to kill stuff.

Although, I'm SUPER CURIOUS how you think doing a lot of DPS doesn't result in dead stuff. You know what damage DOES right?


Regardless, it still sounds like you agree with me anyway. Let us enable Assassin's Focus even if we AS from hide. We get to do your little demoralize thing, we get to wtfpwn that guy, we get to crit all over the place. Sounds like a win for everyone.

And the new change still won't take away Placate + AoE.

Mid-combat placate + AS has never been a useful tactic. It has its use for sure. I use it to finish off bosses with god mode. Instead of dpsing him to death, I need a good burst damage to finish him off before he casts his god-mode.

I am not spinning it. I've asked several times what people think Placate "should" be. I think I posted in another thread (so many postings!! lol)

Obviously, Placate won't be as good as an Offensive option when Focus comes out. They can still make it a good Defensive option. IE: Making Demoralize better or granting some +defense or resistance.

If Placate is useless, I won't even take it. I do take it. I just don't use it all the time just like if my Scrapper takes Confront, I don't use it all the time. I may use it to taunt an AV if I am the sole melee and that's about it. Just like you can't expect Placate to be that useful all the time.

Somebody already said they can't really shorten Placate's animation. That's one thing that I was really hoping for. Oh well....