FYI guys... Synapse just posted that Assassin's Focus adds 33% crit chance to out of hide AS PER stack.
Sooo hit with 3 attacks outside of hide and the new uninterruptible (out-of-hide) AS has a 99% chance to crit... hehehe
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Lol WTF? That's overpowered |
Originally Posted by Benchpresser
FYI guys... Synapse just posted that Assassin's Focus adds 33% crit chance to out of hide AS PER stack.
Sooo hit with 3 attacks outside of hide and the new uninterruptible (out-of-hide) AS has a 99% chance to crit... hehehe |
I'd have made it 5 stacks (so about 19% per stack).
That, or they'll increase the recharge and endurance cost of the power dramatically....it recharges normally in 16 seconds, I think...
And would Assassin's Strike itself add a counter to Assassin's Focus? Just Hide > AS > 3 attacks > AS sounds particularly crazy....
Hmm, well does Assassin's Focus do anything else besides affect Assassin's Strike?
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Bam Bam Bam BOOM!|
Originally Posted by Benchpresser
FYI guys... Synapse just posted that Assassin's Focus adds 33% crit chance to out of hide AS PER stack.
Sooo hit with 3 attacks outside of hide and the new uninterruptible (out-of-hide) AS has a 99% chance to crit... hehehe |
Every Stalker is a Street Justice stalker. And there will be much giggling.
And let's not forget AS has a base chance of 10% to crit naturally. So 3 stacks of Assassin's Focus = 109% crit chance on AS without hide?
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Originally Posted by Leo_G
And let's not forget AS has a base chance of 10% to crit naturally. So 3 stacks of Assassin's Focus = 109% crit chance on AS without hide?
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The Assasin's Focus buff might be counted separately from the normal Crits
so it could look like
Focus 99% Chance to Crit
10% Chance to Crit
giving two separate chances of a crit one that riggers 99% of the time and one that has a 10% chance
And possibly the chance that both trigger?
making the rare AS Double Crit somewhat of a feature?
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I was confused by that typo at first. I thought an out-of-hide AS does index 7 + demoralize but still have interruption. Synapse already cleared that up. |
Originally Posted by Leo_G
Lol how are you guys getting so confused?
The shorter animation is dictated by being hidden or not, the super Assassination dmg + demoralize is only usable while hidden but comes with the fact it is interruptible and slower. Hide basically changes the function of AS; burst damage + AoE mitigation vs high DPS. |
Where does it say AS out of hide has "shorter" activation time? I know Focus gives 33% per stack and with 3 hits, you are more than 100%.
Looks like the design goal for this is to use Assassin Strike. Use it and embrace it.
I just feel sets like Spines will get more benefit out of this because it can start the fight with BU + Throw Spines (to get the aoe benefit) while building Focus for Assassin Strike out-of-hide. So you start with Throw Spine, Spine Burst and maybe Rippers and then you have a 100% critical AS on the left over bosses. That's like a no brainer. Sets like MA are still stuck with mostly ST damage (although this problem is more less of a concern if you take patron aoe).
Ah...this brings another question, will patron attacks gain Focus? Gotta ask that!
What's left is to normalize all Assassin Strikes and improve Stalker's old sets (Claw, MA and EM)! You don't need to bring back the missing PbAoE attack. You just need to make the existing ones better! For example, make Slice a WIDER and LONGER cone.
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My Pants just flew off!|
Originally Posted by Benchpresser
FYI guys... Synapse just posted that Assassin's Focus adds 33% crit chance to out of hide AS PER stack.
Sooo hit with 3 attacks outside of hide and the new uninterruptible (out-of-hide) AS has a 99% chance to crit... hehehe |
OMG gimmie, gimmie, gimmie, gimmie, beta, beta, beta! I can make more stalkers! <3
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Uh, I think a lot of the confusion is the use of 'out of hide' as a term to determine the circumstances of AS's use. 'Out of hide' could mean 'coming out of hide' or 'you aren't hidden' and it mixes people up.|
Originally Posted by Jibikao
I was confused by that typo at first. I thought an out-of-hide AS does index 7 + demoralize but still have interruption. Synapse already cleared that up.
Where does it say AS out of hide has "shorter" activation time? I know Focus gives 33% per stack and with 3 hits, you are more than 100%. |
How about just using the phrases 'with hide' or 'without hide' or 'hidden/unhidden'?
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| Looks like the design goal for this is to use Assassin Strike. Use it and embrace it. |
I still feel it should be a choice, though, and one shouldn't be handicapped because they made a 'different' choice.
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Originally Posted by DMystic
The Assasin's Focus buff might be counted separately from the normal Crits
so it could look like Focus 99% Chance to Crit 10% Chance to Crit giving two separate chances of a crit one that riggers 99% of the time and one that has a 10% chance And possibly the chance that both trigger? making the rare AS Double Crit somewhat of a feature? |
That really makes me not want to use regular Hide + AS...
So does the Assassin's Focus get 'spent' when you crit with an AS?
Oh. One thing to note (and this might have been obvious to some, but I think it's best that I spell this out so that there isn't any confusion) is that you basically subtract the windup time from the total cast time you guys see in the real numbers. For example:
Assassin's Strike for Kinetic Melee says it has a cast time of 2.67s. Once you remove the 2 second wind up the power has a .67 cast time. So, when you strike with this power out of hide, it will have a .67 cast time.
The obvious problem is that some Assassin Strikes have longer cast times than others. Eventually I'd like all Assassin Strikes to have a 2 second wind up and 1 second cast time. This way you always have a 3 second total cast time (including interruptible wind up) when hidden and a 1 second cast time out of hide.
Again, that likely won't come until after i22.
0.67 Super Damage attack for Kinetic? Oh please.. gimmie. So yeah, if you are not using Assassin Strike, you are not competing hard...
Well, Placate still has its use for aoe attacks like Burst and Throw Spine. If the mobs are just trash enemies, a Focus X 3 will be way overkill on a minion. A more logical choice is to do Placate + AoE to hurt as many as you can or you can choose to overkill a minion. There is still a choice involved.
What's left is to normalize all Assassin Strikes and improve Stalker's old sets (Claw, MA and EM)! You don't need to bring back the missing PbAoE attack. You just need to make the existing ones better! For example, make Slice a WIDER and LONGER cone.
Yes I think it most definitely gets "Spent"...but I could be wrong...I think if it remained as unspent...let's just say a few people would be switching AT's lol.
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Apparently not. |
Originally Posted by Jibikao
yeah, if you are not using Assassin Strike, you are not competing hard...
There is still a choice involved. |
This is why I'm advocating for an alternative use to Assassin's Focus, even at the cost of effectiveness of what has been described (lol, which is overpowered as it is). What that alternative use might be....well, I dunno.
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I was just thinking about that myself. I've never played a DB stalker, but it seems to me the result will be a significant improvement since it can now easily use an important combo in mid-fight without worrying about Hide or Placate. And it will get a boost to single target damage from Assassin's Blades on a regular basis.
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Originally Posted by Leo_G
How would it affect Dual Blades who has a combo linked to AS?
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Aww, you changed your handle |
Originally Posted by Tater Todd
[looks at avatar]
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...although I already forgot what it used to be...
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Well, I didn't know Assassin Strike was going to be that short activation time. I can see 33% per stack seem a bit high. We'll see once beta starts. |
Originally Posted by Leo_G
Apparently not.
This is why I'm advocating for an alternative use to Assassin's Focus, even at the cost of effectiveness of what has been described (lol, which is overpowered as it is). What that alternative use might be....well, I dunno. |
I mean I can't imagine people asking "nerfs" on stalkers but it may just happen.
We may go for 20% per stack so 5 hits is 100% guaranteed.
I don't know what else they can tie Focus to. Technically, Placate will be a good one because with Focus full, you are going to spend it by clicking Assassin Strike. Placate can be another power that you click to "spend" Focus.
What are some good ideas then? I mean what else do we need? I know I won't be using Placate + AS (unless I really want Demoralize). That's so slow... interruptable and you are not building focus.
What's left is to normalize all Assassin Strikes and improve Stalker's old sets (Claw, MA and EM)! You don't need to bring back the missing PbAoE attack. You just need to make the existing ones better! For example, make Slice a WIDER and LONGER cone.
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Since the game includes tech to make powers behave entirely differently in PvE vs. PvP this isn't a valid reason to nix any PvE change.|
Originally Posted by TheBruteSquad
Nah. That would be annoying in pvp, where moving around a corner is a great way to counter being AS'd. Not that AS hurts too badly in modern pvp, mind you, but it's still a hit best avoided.
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Originally Posted by oreso
Those mourning the loss of usefullness of Placate (which I totally don't mind personally), but maybe Placate would be more attractive if it was a 5-target AoE like Taunt? Maybe with a -tohit debuff or something to help the team?
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Originally Posted by Arbiter Hawk
We're testing three improvements to stalkers in i22:
-Assassin's Strike: using Assassin's Strike outside of hide will be an uninterruptible attack with no windup time, dealing Superior damage. This will allow Stalkers to do very competitive dps. |
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Originally Posted by Arbiter Hawk
-All Stalker attacks that are not Assassin's Strike will build stacks of a buff called Assassin's Focus. Assassin's Focus increases your chance to critically strike with the out-of-hide Assassin's Strike.
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Originally Posted by Arbiter Hawk
-Stalker Buffed Max HP will be increased by about 400. This should allow them to fully benefit from powers like dull pain, hoarfrost, etc.
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On the whole I'm quite pleased.
Can we not speculate the effects of these changes by the numbers given yet?
Not a maths guy, but;
-Assassin's Strike base damage = [x]
-Assassin's Strike crit damage = [x]*2
-Activation of AS without hide = 1 second (what Synapse is aiming for eventually)
-[Insert DPS calculations]
*Unknowns are, the crit bonus of Assassin's Focus stacking or duplicating with the base (and scaling) crit value of AS; if these bonuses duplicate with hide's bonus; placate's ultimate value after it's all said and done. If AS's rech, end or base dmg will be changed.
Considering the nature of placate, its cast time and interruptibility vs this new AS and it's quick damage, will there be a purpose for placate? It has already been brought into question how much placate improves damage potential currently. How worthwhile do you think it'll be with these changes?
As for ideas about what Assassin's Focus could do besides buff unhidden AS? No clue. But I'm trying to look at these changes from another perspective besides "OMG! I'm gonna SOOOO AS yer *** now!!" (because if you know me, I use AS on *every* one of my Stalkers currently). How much will these changes alter the 'feel' of the AT and in what way? Does it really leave the 'stealthy' 'calculating' and/or 'precision' feel of the AT intact? And how strongly does it devalue current Stalker tactics/playstyles and builds?
From what I can tell, and IMO:
-using AS with hide wouldn't be as advantageous for damage (and only minorly for mitigation because of the short duration)
-placate might waste more of your time than help unless you've got an AoE that'll hit 4+ foes
-this emphasizes less on tactics or timing and benefits mostly the scrapper style of play with little choice of the contrary
-enforces the build preference of taking and abusing AS where, now, you can get by perfectly fine without AS or placate...
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But is it any better /now/? Let's be honest here; Hide, Placate, and AS are gimmicky as all hell. As it stands, Stalkers are; "Do a lot of Burst on the opening, and then cry in a corner while everyone else out damages me", primarily due to the poor design of AS.|
Originally Posted by Leo_G
From what I can tell, and IMO:
-using AS with hide wouldn't be as advantageous for damage (and only minorly for mitigation because of the short duration) -placate might waste more of your time than help unless you've got an AoE that'll hit 4+ foes -this emphasizes less on tactics or timing and benefits mostly the scrapper style of play with little choice of the contrary -enforces the build preference of taking and abusing AS where, now, you can get by perfectly fine without AS or placate... |
This new design? You could still open with AS for the huge burst (I guess, as I said this wasn't even well designed anyway), but now it looks like Stalkers, building their Assassin's Focus stacks and using AS, will actually get the title of "Highest Single Target DPS in the game", as they should have. They're significantly squishier than every other dedicated Melee AT, they SHOULD out damage those ATs, flat-out.
It's not even a debate, nor SHOULD it be, that Stalkers should out damage Scrappers and Brutes. Their lower HP and lack of AoE are both detrimental to their health. They need to burn through single targets a lot faster to make up for it.
Should they HORRIBLY out damage those two? No, but it should be by enough that "Stalkers lack of survivability and AoE is worth it for their massive STDPS".
As for AS being more useful outside of Hide with the changes? Oh glorious day, a gimmicky garbage power will have a use, that is generally the power that removes the one AoE in most melee sets?! So I don't feel bad that I lost that AoE for a garbage single target power?!
YAY!
Well, I'm certainly interested to see how this works out.
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Haha, My handle use to be Negate but I grew tired of my Global and Forum Handle not being the same! Now they match up woot! |
Originally Posted by Leo_G
Aww, you changed your handle
...although I already forgot what it used to be... |
I think Reppu is right (Did I just say that?!) :P.
The 3 hits for 100% on AF is not OP! How about we Compare the beta Stalker dmg with a Claws/Elec Brute with 70% Fury spamming Spin!
If each stack of AF adds 33.3% crit chance and it can stack three times, then it seems deliberately set up to replace and not to add on to the existing random critical. That's not a bad thing really. One stack alone tops the best random critical rate you can have on a team today and it un-tethers AS performance from the behavior of your teammates.
That said, I hate to say it but it seems a little too powerful. Who's NOT going to execute at least three standard attacks between Assassin Strikes? You'll basically get a guaranteed crit every time you use AS when not Hidden.
As for animation times... sigh. I was hoping they'd go ahead and just do it right the first time. As it stands, KM's AS is going to have TWO AND A HALF TIMES the DPA of Ninja Blade's or Broadsword's AS! Animation fixes just seem to be one of those things that get perpetually delayed. Sucks being a Ninja Blade fan.
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And I can tell you don't particularly care how Stalker accomplishes the feat of being great. You're focusing on the goal of 'beating' those other melees even at the cost of individuality or style. Worse yet, you must have yourself set to believe I'm somehow trying to *hinder* your progress into greatness or 'ruin' things by resisting this design direction...|
Originally Posted by Reppu
But is it any better /now/? Let's be honest here; Hide, Placate, and AS are gimmicky as all hell. As it stands, Stalkers are; "Do a lot of Burst on the opening, and then cry in a corner while everyone else out damages me", primarily due to the poor design of AS.
This new design? You could still open with AS for the huge burst (I guess, as I said this wasn't even well designed anyway), but now it looks like Stalkers, building their Assassin's Focus stacks and using AS, will actually get the title of "Highest Single Target DPS in the game", as they should have. They're significantly squishier than every other dedicated Melee AT, they SHOULD out damage those ATs, flat-out. |
Try to look at the changes objectively. Personally, yeah, these changes look wonderful and I'm all for them...it's just it basically makes Stalkers into Scrappers with a spammable pre-nerf Energy Transfer.
Don't look at the survivability (honestly, the suggested changes closes that gap nearly completely) or even the loss of AoE (the change that makes AS activate faster seems a fair trade for some of the lost attacks and you know it) but the sum total of the changes and how the AT uses the tools to craft a unique playstyle. So don't tell me how 'gimped' you think Stalker's tactics are and think about what you'd do to make them 'ungimped'.
When Angry Citizen was around, parity was a goal, but keeping the Stalker's unique style was also the goal. The situation I'm seeing now? The devs are willing and ready to make Stalkers into Scrappers and have placed an option down that may do that at the cost of what a Stalker has naturally sought to do.
Do you want to marginalize the hidden AS tactic? Or Placate? So that you can say you're better than X and Y?
I'm not telling you to hate the new changes, just to actually *seek* *SOMETHING* that at least attempts to reward a Stalker for his tactics, which I don't believe these new changes do.
Hah, don't shoot me down like I'm trying to ruin your party. You've actually got a dev set to help the AT out, don't toss away your opportunity by just giving up what makes Stalkers unique...
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Well I think from what Synapse said that it will keep it, which will make the damage on StJ very nice on stalkers. I just need to see how its going to work out. I hope it does because I dont know how much of lol stalkers I can continue to deal with.
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Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
AS being useful outside of Hide is a nice change. The question I have about that is: WIll Street Justice's AS retain it's 2 combo point building aspect out of Hide? It's relevant to me because StJ/Nin is the only stalker I'm actively playing at the moment.
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There's a difference between 'unique' and 'gimmicky'. One can be utilized into something fantastic. The other is, well, gimmicky. Placate, Assassin's Strike, and Hide are 'gimmicky'. They are not the /core/ of Stalker gameplay. "What?", you may ask?|
Originally Posted by Leo_G
And I can tell you don't particularly care how Stalker accomplishes the feat of being great. You're focusing on the goal of 'beating' those other melees even at the cost of individuality or style. Worse yet, you must have yourself set to believe I'm somehow trying to *hinder* your progress into greatness or 'ruin' things by resisting this design direction...
Try to look at the changes objectively. Personally, yeah, these changes look wonderful and I'm all for them...it's just it basically makes Stalkers into Scrappers with a spammable pre-nerf Energy Transfer. Don't look at the survivability (honestly, the suggested changes closes that gap nearly completely) or even the loss of AoE (the change that makes AS activate faster seems a fair trade for some of the lost attacks and you know it) but the sum total of the changes and how the AT uses the tools to craft a unique playstyle. So don't tell me how 'gimped' you think Stalker's tactics are and think about what you'd do to make them 'ungimped'. When Angry Citizen was around, parity was a goal, but keeping the Stalker's unique style was also the goal. The situation I'm seeing now? The devs are willing and ready to make Stalkers into Scrappers and have placed an option down that may do that at the cost of what a Stalker has naturally sought to do. Do you want to marginalize the hidden AS tactic? Or Placate? So that you can say you're better than X and Y? I'm not telling you to hate the new changes, just to actually *seek* *SOMETHING* that at least attempts to reward a Stalker for his tactics, which I don't believe these new changes do. Hah, don't shoot me down like I'm trying to ruin your party. You've actually got a dev set to help the AT out, don't toss away your opportunity by just giving up what makes Stalkers unique... |
Because, RIGHT NOW? Assassin's Strike is horribly unviable in the AoE spamfest League nonsense. Even IF you get it off, your /core/ unique ability is usable, practically, once per fight; before the fight starts. Using Placate into AS DURING a fight is still arguably not a viable use of time.
Let's be honest here and stop kidding ourselves; City of Heroes is not a game designed for sneaky sneaky PRECISION BASED EXECUTION WEEEEEEEEE. It's far too, bluntly, stupid to do so. Even in games like World of Warcraft, Rogues are their Hidden status to get into a good position, and then open up and go toe-to-toe. And, really? Rogues are Scrappers, not Stalkers.
Regardless, don't get so haughty. I'm not trying to 'hinder' you, so much as I'm shaking my head at your logic. Right now? Stalkers are a mess. They're not competitive at all, and the ONLY reason you'd pick a Stalker over a Scrapper or Brute (Or Blaster or Dominator) is simply because you couldn't find the other. You do not pick a Stalker because of their 'unique' nature, in the LEAST, because of how gimmicky garbage it is.
Again, because the emphasis cannot be held enough; City of Heroes is not a game that supports Solid Snake mentality of swiftly eliminating a single enemy, then going back and doing it all over again. It's a game designed to put you at odds that in other MMOs you'd get crushed, and walk out barely scratched. You're a Super Hero/Villain, not a street rat.
When I first heard "Stalker" back before City of Villains went live, I didn't imagine what we got; a gimmicky, crappy Brute (Scrapper now.) I was expecting something... 'graceful'. In so much that it took some thought, but with that proper thought you'd make Scrappers and Brutes blush at your display of WTFPWNERY.
I realized some time later that wasn't possible in the core design of City of Heroes; you really can't do something like that. What you CAN do is give Stalkers a 'unique' trait, in so far as unique as Assassin's Strike/Focus can be with the new system, and try to find a way to make it more 'rewarding' in utilizing it properly.
As it stands? 'Combo Systems' in City of Heroes (looking at you, Dual Blades) aren't that well implemented. You really couldn't do something so 'unique' for Stalkers in that regard. This change? While you could argue it makes them "More like Scrappers than ever before!", how is that a /bad/ thing? Because it takes away what makes Stalkers 'unique'?
Giving Scrappers access to the Stealth Pool and Energy Aura did that waaaaay before this did, but I digress.
Hide, Placate, and Assassin's Strike, as are, will always be gimmicky garbage that weighs the AT down and offers nothing 'unique' to it. No, these aren't unique, game-altering features. They're garbage and drag the archetype down, as they are currently implemented.
I'm more than open to hear of ways to keep Stalker being 'unique' in some totally redesigned manner, but just tweaking how Hide, Placate, and Assassin's Strike work won't do that. They will remain gimmicky garbage if they remain anything like they currently function.
Or, at least in the game they're in. Repeating one more time; City of Heroes doesn't support this type of gameplay, period.
So, Leo_G? Show me what you would change. Show everyone what you would do to keep Stalkers unique, but to remove the LOLSTALKERS title once and for all.
Sorry Leo but I agree. Placate is crap .
Could this Assassin Focus be the "Momentum" that speeds up Assassin Strike?
I mean you need to gain some kind of "buff" icon to shorten the activation time right? I don't think you can have an attack that has two separate activation time without any buff since getting back in "Hidden Status" (a buff?) actually reverts back to the old activation time.
Maybe the whole Stalker AT feels like Titan Weapon afterall... LOL
1. Stalker with hide uses AS = longer interruptible animation/base dmg + Assassination bonus damage + demoralize.
2. Stalker without hide uses AS = shorter uninterruptible animation/base damage.
3. Stalker without hide uses AS after building Assassin's Focus = shorter uninterruptible animation/base damage + base damage again (basically 2x dmg).
The shorter animation is dictated by being hidden or not, the super Assassination dmg + demoralize is only usable while hidden but comes with the fact it is interruptible and slower. Hide basically changes the function of AS; burst damage + AoE mitigation vs high DPS.
The 'momentum mechanic' isn't hitting to gain a buff that speeds up animations. The momentum mechanic can be described as 'two effects/animations linked together within a single power' with Hide being the trigger that switches between them. The Assassin's Focus is a variant on the 'street justice combo level mechanic' in that it adds levels to improve the effect of a power (in this case, the critical % chance of AS).
Anyways, no one feels there's an issue with limiting Assassin's Focus only to Assassin's Strike? No one thinks that Assassin's Strike should remain a choice and still have Assassin's Focus provide some kind of utility to the AT?