Possible I22 Stalker improvements

I disagree here completely. We can do exactly that.

Look, the game design rewards AoE, on this we all agree. If stalkers could 1-shot any level 54 enemy up to and including bosses with every attack including the T1s and T2s with no buildup, and if all of our attacks animated in less than 1 second, then that would be WTFPWNERY over most scrappers and brutes. It would also still be weaker than a SS/Fire/Mu brute or a fire (or electric)/shield scrapper in terms of farming. Despite that, it would be pretty broken.

On the other hand, there is a point where our attacks could all be faster than anything a scrapper or brute has, and still do somewhat more damage. Enough that we are dropping spawns via rapid single-target attacks about half the speed of someone who does 2 AoEs then polishes off the lucky lieut and the two bosses. That would still be competitive and viable to teams. It would be awesomely in demand for hard single targets like a barracuda with no mm/defender or a MO Lamda.

This makes us a lot like scrappers, just single-target focused and really, really good at it.

So another way that works more stalkery would be to replace the chance to crit unhidden with a chance to hide and make it a global placate with a 120 target limit (like the incarnate buffs). So we hit, hide, hit hide. stick and run. abuse the AI almost like those teleporting enemies so popular in Anime but without a teleport. I'm here, now I'm there, now I'm here again. They almost have me, ooh clutch placate I shed all aggro and have time to lick my wounds. Combined with the proposed change to AS, this would be a devastating amount of single-target damage.

I'm sure the group can think of many more ways as well, that all preserve the difference between scrappers and stalkers better than anything I can think of. There were some great ideas in Evil's thread from last week.

The short of it is, that somewhere there is a line above which our single-target damage is high enough that we are valuable to teams as a blurry buzzsaw of death. The devs can put us there any time they want.

I want you to go AFK for a little while and clear your mind. Then, come back and read that and realize you're not fixing anything, and using an idea like "Do it like they do in Anime!" makes me wonder about something; how would they implement that in a game like CoX?

You did admit that the issue here is AoE is so powerful, and Stalkers give AoE up for... their crappy gimmicks. Should they get their AoE back? Eh. But relying on the crappy gimmick is not doing any good. The proposed changes from the Devs so far? Lovely, and i'm considering picking up Stalkers again knowing I can do a lot more STDPS, like the design promised to in the first place.

So... yeah. Your ideas, while nice? Aren't practical and don't fit the gameplay design of CoX.

I think I'll have to disagree with this (untill tested of course), as this is their way of increasing DPS without increasing the damage mod. And I like this idea as it makes it something different.

I think what (at least solo) going in with AS while hidden will be the better option for the start of a fight for best DPS, while the new mechanic will allow you to continue to DPS out the harder targets.

I agree. Also fixing Placate would be nice, it's still bugged. I also like the idea that someone else has mentioned, it should be a lot like Taunt.

I *really* don't feel like dissecting every one of your over dramatic posts, so please calm yourself.

First of all, drop the 'gimmicky' thing. Because you're confusing 'gimmicky' with 'ineffective'. Have you seen Beam Rifle? That's gimmicky. What about the new Staff Melee? That's gimmicky. Or the new Assassin's Focus? That's gimmicky.

The issue is (and surprise surprise, it's the *same* thing brought up by Angry Citizen if you ever decide to take the wayback machine and read) adding gimmicks ontop of gimmicks. Yes, Angry Citizen brought it up and I remember because I suggested such gimmicks at the time Stalkers were first improved.

So my first advice on this particular part of dissecting your post: Separate 'gimmick' from 'ineffective' because you're not doing that.

Right, and it can be argued that Assassin's Strike and all it's gimmicky-ness was an aspect of Stalker that made it unique. So your answer to fix what problems you have is...to add another gimmick ontop of that? Rather than improve the gimmick you already have and make it more viable? And I'm speaking of the whole schibang here (hide, placate, AS, controlled burst damage, criticals...)

You say Placate is crap, Negate? Then why not improve it? You'd rather just toss it aside?

Frankly? Stalkers work just fine right now, and their unique style is fun and captivating and has the interest of many players (otherwise no one would be here debating changes for the AT). That you feel Stalkers are a mess, that there is no room for its playstyle and so forth says novels about why you'd have the opinion you have and argue the way you do.

And you don't pick a stalker for a team for being 'unique', you *play* a stalker for being 'unique'. The team doesn't give a crap if, as a DPS AT, you're shooting at range, hitting in melee, nuking entire spawns, etc. All the team cares about is if you keep up and do your role, DPS. Stalkers have always been capable of this and you won't convince me otherwise.

And me saying that does not mean I did not believe improvements could be made to make the choice of being a Stalker more worthwhile, but that comes as a personal choice, not a choice to be approved of by a team that doesn't consist solely of me, myself and I.

Now I know you don't know who I am or understand my perspective.

Nowhere...*ANYWHERE*...do I ever advocate some kind of 'hit and run' type mentality of eliminating a target and then waiting to get the chance again. The only quality I really attribute to Stalkers as being 'theirs' is their control over their burst damage. And it can be said the new changes does give them more controlled burst damage. Problem is, it does so at the cost of their natural tactics. And if I have to spell it out for you, I'm implying that it'd be better to just jump in and scrap vs singling out a trouble target. The sooner you get down and scrap, the sooner you can pump out 1sec cast AS attacks. I feel this isn't quite the right direction to go. You seem not to care.

And this is really all you had to say. If I want to play Scrappers (and I often do) then I'll play Scrappers. Bad enough Brutes and Scrappers are practically identical, the least that could be done is not invalidate a whole style of melee and give it its own unique reward.

It's rather pointless to continue discussion with you, Reppuu. You're predisposed to hate current Stalker, which is what I'm looking to discuss.

The current methods of controlled burst damage.

As of before, Hide > AS wasn't wholly attractive in many situations. The devs added Demoralize to make it somewhat moreso. It rewards the use of AS in conjunction with Hide and/or placate. This, in and of itself, does not change with Synapse's changes.

But the *relative* attractiveness of that combo *does* change. Just answer these questions:
-Currently, do you feel penalized for using AS from hide?

For me? No, not really. It's a situational attack. It does what it does and gives you a bit of an alpha-dampener on top.

-With the proposed change, now how do you feel?

It's hard not to feel penalized. Bad enough it requires either hide unsuppressing or placate, but it remains slow and interruptible when hidden but fast and uninterruptible when not hidden? And it doesn't mesh with aura powers and it gets no benefit from Assassin's Focus and it's not like Demoralize completely stacks...

Stepping away from Hide > AS, I'm still curious of the implications this has on Placate. Again, this is a tool situationally useful because of its clunkiness and questionable effect on DPS. Will Assassin's Focus, as described, banish this power into uselessness? Maybe just make it more situational than it is?

I'm honestly shocked how easily you people dismiss Stalker tactics. If Stalkers aren't going to ever bother using AS + demoralize or placate, what makes one different from a Scrapper or a Brute?

As for what I'd try to do with these Stalker changes?

Well, let me just end this post and start another, cause this one's long enough...

Stopped there. Couldn't control laughter.

Stalkers work just fine right now? Yeah, about that? No. They're playable in so much that they can get Buffed to Stupidity and perform like everyone el- wait no, that's also a lie. They're playable in so much that Gravity Control is playable... except at least as a Controller you get a broken Support Secondary, and as a Dominator you can take an awesome Assault set + Fire or Ice mastery and trolololol to the bank.

I'm going to ignore the rest of your post, as you're just chastising me for not liking the current Stalker. Which, is true. The current Stalker is a garbage, wanna-be Scrapper with nothing unique about it. Nope, sorry. I don't think Hide, Placate, and Assassin's Strike are 'unique playstyle' at all. And yes, they are gimmicks. They're the gimmicks of the AT and they're worthless in execution. Glad we agreed on that.

There is /nothing/ unique or good about the current Stalker. A BIG OL' CRIT out of Hide? Yeah, that burst damage is quickly overwhelmed by any other DPSer due to their superior numbers.

PS: Bane Spiders and Night Widows do it better. Unique? Nope. Funny how those aren't garbage ATs, even though they utilize the same thing! Maybe because their core design didn't throw everything into relying on their Assassin's Strike mechanic, and it was instead utilized into already go- holy crap they're changing AS into the Bane/Night design!

GENIUS.

Okay, I actually like this idea! Except, one thing.

Where is this ANY different from the proposed changes? You're going to get 3 stacks either way, and then fire off your AS Burst. The only big change you're doing is making AS from hide more valuable, which I agree it needs to be. But... otherwise, you changed nothing else and just made it more 'complicated' with less 'payoff' aside from some sort of feeling of... satisfaction?

You changed nothing. Good job!

That sounds great for my incarnate softcapped KM/EA/Pyre stalker, but what about the regen and resistance stalkers? AS would still be useless outside of hide for them.

Your vision for stalker tactics is not rewarded by City of Heroes combat system, you have to admit that.

Did you read the whole suggestion? Working in-line with the current suggestion of Synapse, 3 stacks is where you're aiming for (although I'd have suggested 5). 1 stack will allow you to use AS unhidden without being interrupted (if 5 stacks, then stack 2-4 would be incremental +% crit bonuses while stack 5 is the quick animation). Not only that, but if you can use AS in ambush (i.e. faster than without hide), that already improves the use of AS for your regen and resistance stalkers.

And I don't admit stalker tactics aren't rewarded. Because they are. Use Placate > AS now and you're rewarded with Demoralize. Use Placate > AoE and you've got higher crits in an AoE. Basically, I want there to be a purpose to using placate no worse than what we have now. Same with using AS from hide.

Placate, rewarding? Only if you're Kinetic Melee, and that's to just do Burst into Fireball AoE crits. Outside of that? Real useless.

I like your suggestion for this reason if no other. Placate is already of limited usefulness. The changes as listed by Arbiter Hawk have the potential to marginalize its usefulness even further. Your suggestion at least makes it a somewhat appealing power to use mid-fight.

My preference would still be to get changes to Placate to make it a better power to use in conjunction with any attack and not just AS, but short of that, at least your suggestion makes it a worthwhile power.

I dont know if I agree that the changes marginalize Placate at all.

What it may do is maginalize it more for the tricked out IO build. But it still has it's helpfulness in survival, and when you want a 100% crit (even if it lowers DPS).

But one of the ways they may be able to help with that is speeding up the animation of Placate.

This. I got 2 stalkers that i like, Spines/Nrg and Ele/Nrg. I want to see the new AS looks like, i love how the Ele AS looks like so im want to see the new/short one.

Currently Placate+AS is the highest DPSA combo available to most primaries. So there's a valid reason to use Placate mid-fight if you can pull off the interruptible AS. Looking at the numbers for Broadsword, one of the sets that would benefit the least from these changes, I got better DPSA numbers for an unhidden AS than for the Placate+AS combo. Specifically:

So you're better off not using Placate with the proposed changes, which is not true currently.

I realize on paper Placate+AS is the highest DPSA available, sadly, it doesn't work out in practice in my experience (and that's with a tricked out, softcapped /WP Stalker).

If it did, I may not have felt Stalkers lacking in DPS.

Elec/ Does have a really cool looking AS. I commend my fellow posters for acting civil. I for one am bouncing off the walls and can barely contain my excitement.

I know the feeling, the idea of 2 of my Favorite toons (aka on the front page of Chars) is getting a buff. Thumbs Up! Can't wait for the beta testing, hope the copy tool will be ready by then.

Placate will be a 100% defensive ability with the proposed changes unless they give it a secondary effect (like +dmg or -res)

True but i still want to see it.