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Originally Posted by Siolfir
While I'm at it, since I didn't include it before:
AS from Placate (all scale 7.25 to include the 10% "double critical" chance): 3 sec animation: scale 1.484/sec 2.67 sec (KM): scale 1.570/sec 3.17 sec (StJ): scale 1.408/sec 3.67 sec (DB, shorter Placate): scale 1.337/sec 3.67 sec (BS, NB): scale 1.308/sec |
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| 3.67 sec (DB, shorter Placate): scale 1.337/sec |
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| scale 1.337/sec |
50s:
Grimmloch, Tactically Delicious, Ugly Frankie, Operative Tracker, CryoFurnace, Professional Help, Silver Sphinx, Aries Knight, Tachyon Aegis, Jade Sphinx
Currently building:
Any one of half a dozen alts!
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Yes, but soon it will be changed - those are only how it comes out with a 10% double-critical chance with the current scale and animation time.|
Originally Posted by Telperion
Ladies and gentlemen, the code has been cracked. Siolfir has discovered DB's hidden power.
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Alas, it will no longer be 1337 in i22. (or when teamed)
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Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle
it has gone from unconscionable to downright appalling that we have no way of measuring our characters' wetness.
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Originally Posted by Brillig
It's hard to beat the entertainment value of Whackjob Wednesdays.
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I'd rather lose Thunder Kick for MA
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Originally Posted by Death_Adder
I'd really like to see MA lose Crane Kick and EM lose Stun to put Dragons Tail and Whirling Hands back in. There is really no reason for these sets to have no aoe at all.
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BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection
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Originally Posted by Leo_G
Basically, you're practically penalized every time you try to use them as a pair...not trying to cradle the Placate > AS combo, but for mid-combat Demoralize, you shouldn't need to sacrifice so much...especially if they're just handing out free-crit AS >_>
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Originally Posted by Leo_G
Okay, now step back and stop looking at it from a selfish perspective.
What about other players' stalkers? What about the primaries that aren't Street Justice or Kinetic Melee? What about the stalkers without high-end IO builds? What about the Stalkers under level 13 or 26 or 32? How you use your characters isn't always how others use theirs so singling out your perspective purposely ignores other variables and that's not something we should be doing when making fundamental changes like what is about to occur. |
The proposed changes allowing AS to be used mid-fight without having to use placate is a win for all powersets in the AT. It allows for a dramatically increased single target damage, the ability to use AS outside of hide which will make AS viable on teams as well. For those sets that do have AoE, it will allow them, in a team environment, to just open up with their AoE attacks like the rest and then AS a boss with full effect in the middle of the fight. This will allow them to function as well as a scrapper or a brute in a team (although without the damage aura from the secondary) while still enjoying the benefits of being a stalker on a team (increased crits, ability to crit from hide, the ability to ghost missions).
Where is the downside for any powerset in the AT? All that is required is a revision in how you use placate.
Placate + Assassin Strike as it is currently is still one of the best DPS options to a Stalker.
Unslotted that's 82.55 DPS (using Energy Melee's AS as a basis).
MA best attack for DPS is Storm Kick at 76.46 DPS with Eagle's Claw coming in at 64.43, CK/CS coming in at 64.88 and CAK coming in at 70.18.
Crushing Impact attack for DPS is 81.86 (no combo), 85.6 (lvl 1), 90.78 (lvl 2), 100.46 (lvl 3)
Energy Transfere is 87.32
Smite is 67.97 while Midnight Grasp is 75.22
So generally, Placate + Assassin Strike has always been AWESOME for DPS.
The problem with Placate + Assassin Strike has always been (in my experience)...
1) Teaming. Just not enough time to use it. Never has been in my experience, even before the first changes. If it wasn't herd and AOE it's been steamroll with AOE. Only on a ST focused team, has Placate + Assassin Strike been worth it.
I've been on a ST focused team, it's a rarity in my experience.
2) Solo vs AVs. In my experience with AV soloing my KM/WP has been Placate + Assassin Strike had a tendency to have hide seen through, Placate interrupted right as you hit it, Placate ignored, or some last ditch attack of some sort would interrupt Assassin Strike during it's animation.
This is with using a softcapped to S/L/E/N KM/WP Stalker.
This also doesn't include how using Placate + Assassin Strike can be ruined by a bit of movement.
Now, I don't consider myself some top of the line player, but I am a player who likes to do such things as Solo AVs.
I am a player who tends to team (I TF a lot) and even if I didn't, the end game is about a lot of teaming.
Now, I'm not saying have Assassin Strike in the hidden state lose to AS in the unhidden state in terms of DPS, but if they did make it that way, I would say that yes, it is still themetic to Stalkers.
You're using an attack on the enemy for the best damage to get the fight over with ASAP which is themetic to Stalkers imo.
Of course, that theme pretty much goes for how everyone plays 
What I like the idea of with this change, is Stalkers having an attack that changes up their best DPS chains for the better with an attack that does such awesome DPS, that Assassin Strike will be to Stalkers what Gloom is to non weapon set Brutes.
Stalkers will have a reason to always throw in Assassin Strike into their DPS attacks.
I like the idea of opening with AS (which would be 127.27 DPS attack) for the burst/best DPS, and then slugging it out while still being able to make use of AS versus what Stalkers have to go through now.
One thing to possibly do to help the Placate + Assassin Strike option is to lower Placate's animation time.
A 1 second animation time on Placate would up the DPS damage of Placate + Assassin Strike to 92.56 (unslotted) a change of 10 whole DPS and makes Placate + Assassin Strike the best DPS option to a Stalker, lowers the chance of the combo being ruined, and likely beats out Assassin Strike from an unhidden state in DPS with the changes as I don't think unhidden state AS will be over 92.56 in DPS.
BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection
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Nope - on DPA the 0% critical chance of unhidden AS is higher than hidden AS, without Placate at all. I edited my post a bit ago due to finally reading Synapse's comments about it; they're not just shaving the full 2 second interruption but also increasing the base damage out of hide from 2.5 to 2.76.|
Originally Posted by BrandX
One thing to possibly do to help the Placate + Assassin Strike option is to lower Placate's animation time.
A 1 second animation time on Placate would up the DPS damage of Placate + Assassin Strike to 92.56 (unslotted) a change of 10 whole DPS and makes Placate + Assassin Strike the best DPS option to a Stalker, lowers the chance of the combo being ruined, and likely beats out Assassin Strike from an unhidden state in DPS with the changes as I don't think unhidden state AS will be over 92.56 in DPS. |
A 1 second animation would make Placate work better offensively for almost every other attack, though; right now it's of marginal use for anything other than Assassin's Strike as far as improving your DPS, and as people keep telling me even that isn't great due to interruption. Part of that is due to the overhead that it adds, since it only increases DPA for powers that have a longer animation that it has, a 100% critical chance while hidden that do a 100% damage critical, and you're in a situation where you're not taking damage and it won't be broken. While I haven't done the calculations for each set I can already just glance and tell that after the changes it always hurts some sets - EM, for instance, cannot offensively benefit from Placate now except for AS since none of the long-animation attacks have a full critical, and after the changes AS's DPA will go down compared to being unhidden.
Based on the description it's almost like the change simply gives you a second power for free that increases your sustained DPS; you can use hidden status or Placate to switch from "DPS mode" to "burst damage mode". Since single-target burst damage is often (not always, but usually) irrelevant in team play I forsee a lot of people deciding to never use Placate offensively.
Edit: started another thread showing the effects of Placate on the primary powers; currently Assassin's Strike is helped but after the changes it won't be (math earlier in this thread for that). Responses about Placate's use for damage could/should probably go there.
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Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle
it has gone from unconscionable to downright appalling that we have no way of measuring our characters' wetness.
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Originally Posted by Brillig
It's hard to beat the entertainment value of Whackjob Wednesdays.
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Awesome....I finally suggested something that was used... Yay!!| -Stalker Buffed Max HP will be increased by about 400. This should allow them to fully benefit from powers like dull pain, hoarfrost, etc. |
http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showp...8&postcount=23
P.S. I know a lot of people suggested it too. I am just happy it's being done.
Proton Sentry Peacebringer:lvl 50+++ - Human Build / Triform Build
Quasar Sentry Warshade:lvl 50+- Human Build / Triform Build
Red Katipo Arachnos Soldier:lvl 50+++ - Crab Build / Bane Build
Black Katipo Arachnos Widowlvl 50+++ - Fortunata Build / Night Widow Build
I don't know how exactly you gain Assassin Focus but I am hoping aoe attacks don't gain Focus. I say this only because that will give AoE-oriented set too much advantage. Throw Spine, Spine Burst, Shockwave, Burst... those already do good burst aoe damage. If they build Focus too, then they have the best of both worlds, while EM and MA are still hitting only one target.
What's left is to normalize all Assassin Strikes and improve Stalker's old sets (Claw, MA and EM)! You don't need to bring back the missing PbAoE attack. You just need to make the existing ones better! For example, make Slice a WIDER and LONGER cone.
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If they do gain focus, I would expect it to work only once per activation and not once per target; that somewhat preserves the balance since you're still using the higher endurance cost of an AoE.
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Originally Posted by Jibikao
I don't know how exactly you gain Assassin Focus but I am hoping aoe attacks don't gain Focus. I say this only because that will give AoE-oriented set too much advantage. Throw Spine, Spine Burst, Shockwave, Burst... those already do good burst aoe damage. If they build Focus too, then they have the best of both worlds, while EM and MA are still hitting only one target.
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Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle
it has gone from unconscionable to downright appalling that we have no way of measuring our characters' wetness.
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Originally Posted by Brillig
It's hard to beat the entertainment value of Whackjob Wednesdays.
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I just want to quote this as it really summarizes my thoughts.|
Originally Posted by Pyro_Beetle
I personally don't like to speak out of turn, which is the reason why I do not speak on any other sets other than KM or StJ as a primary. I have limited to no playing experience with any of the other sets. I would say from a general perspective though that using placate combined with a tier 9 (or 8 with ElM) attack mid-combat is going to probably be far more effective than using placate with AS mid-combat, even under that current model. I was merely pointing out that if you only wish to use placate in such a limited role, then it is you that are limiting its effectiveness, not that its effectiveness is limited.
The proposed changes allowing AS to be used mid-fight without having to use placate is a win for all powersets in the AT. It allows for a dramatically increased single target damage, the ability to use AS outside of hide which will make AS viable on teams as well. For those sets that do have AoE, it will allow them, in a team environment, to just open up with their AoE attacks like the rest and then AS a boss with full effect in the middle of the fight. This will allow them to function as well as a scrapper or a brute in a team (although without the damage aura from the secondary) while still enjoying the benefits of being a stalker on a team (increased crits, ability to crit from hide, the ability to ghost missions). Where is the downside for any powerset in the AT? All that is required is a revision in how you use placate. |
Well done.
When something good happens to me, I can never enjoy it....
I am always too busy looking for the inevitable punchline...
BEHOLD THE POWER OF CHEESE!
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I wouldn't even allow Once per activation for Throw Spine, Spine Burst, Shockwave, and Lightning Rod. I just don't want the disparity between certain sets to get even wider. |
Originally Posted by Siolfir
If they do gain focus, I would expect it to work only once per activation and not once per target; that somewhat preserves the balance since you're still using the higher endurance cost of an AoE.
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Spines can still build Focus by using impale, ripper (it's really a small cone) and the first two attacks. If we allow Spines to build with throw spines and spine burst, then it has the best of everything. What suddenly seems like Spine's biggest weakness (ST damage) becomes almost non-existent with the new AS.
If we only allow ST attacks and small melee cones to build Focus (Rippers and Jacobs Ladder), then Spines can make a choice to either go all out on aoe or build Focus for ST damage if it's just a boss left, but I don't think the set should have both advantages.
What's left is to normalize all Assassin Strikes and improve Stalker's old sets (Claw, MA and EM)! You don't need to bring back the missing PbAoE attack. You just need to make the existing ones better! For example, make Slice a WIDER and LONGER cone.
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I like the idea for it, just in the fact that it would turn Spines into a better option for ST damage over the Scrapper (and likely later Brute) counterpart (or so I would think).|
Originally Posted by Jibikao
I wouldn't even allow Once per activation. I just don't want the disparity between certain sets to get even wider.
Spines can still build Focus by using impale, ripper (it's really a small cone) and the first two attacks. If we allow Spines to build with throw spines and spine burst, then it has the best of everything. What suddenly seems like Spine's biggest weakness (ST damage) becomes almost non-existent with the new AS. If we only allow ST attacks and small melee cones to build Focus (Rippers and Jacobs Ladder), then Spines can make a choice to either go all out on aoe or build Focus for ST damage if it's just a boss left, but I don't think the set should have both advantages. |
And while it would increase Spine's ST DPS, the other sets would still be ahead of it for the fact that they'll just become better at ST DPS.
BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection
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Yeah and if they allow throw spine and spine burst to gain Focus, then Spines really has no weaknesses. |
Originally Posted by BrandX
I like the idea for it, just in the fact that it would turn Spines into a better option for ST damage over the Scrapper (and likely later Brute) counterpart (or so I would think).
And while it would increase Spine's ST DPS, the other sets would still be ahead of it for the fact that they'll just become better at ST DPS. |
(I like Spines. I have a 50 Spine/EA and 42 Spine/Nin)
What's left is to normalize all Assassin Strikes and improve Stalker's old sets (Claw, MA and EM)! You don't need to bring back the missing PbAoE attack. You just need to make the existing ones better! For example, make Slice a WIDER and LONGER cone.
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Sure it does. It deals lethal damage.|
Originally Posted by Jibikao
Yeah and if they allow throw spine and spine burst to gain Focus, then Spines really has no weaknesses.
(I like Spines. I have a 50 Spine/EA and 42 Spine/Nin) |
Feeling like I was just scraping the paint on robots, turrets, and longbow body armor is what shelved my Spines/Nin. My Elec/Nin has been 50 for a while. >.>
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Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle
it has gone from unconscionable to downright appalling that we have no way of measuring our characters' wetness.
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Originally Posted by Brillig
It's hard to beat the entertainment value of Whackjob Wednesdays.
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Sure it does. It still won't have the best ST DPS. There is such a thing as okay ST DPS and better ST DPS |
Originally Posted by Jibikao
Yeah and if they allow throw spine and spine burst to gain Focus, then Spines really has no weaknesses.
(I like Spines. I have a 50 Spine/EA and 42 Spine/Nin) |
BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection
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Oh God so this. I deleted my stalker b/c of the lethal damage. Fighting Council and Long bow drove me crazy.
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Originally Posted by Siolfir
Sure it does. It deals lethal damage.
Feeling like I was just scraping the paint on robots, turrets, and longbow body armor is what shelved my Spines/Nin. My Elec/Nin has been 50 for a while. >.> |
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In all probability, it'll probably work much like Titan Weapon's [Defensive Sweep], which is an AoE which grants Melee/Smashing Defense a la Divine Avalanche. You only get the defense if you hit the target you are targetting (a la, the one in the orange reticule), regardless of how many others you hit with it. So, for purposes of the Defense buff (read: gaining Assassin's Focus), the attack only checks against the single target.|
Originally Posted by Jibikao
I wouldn't even allow Once per activation for Throw Spine, Spine Burst, Shockwave, and Lightning Rod. I just don't want the disparity between certain sets to get even wider.
Spines can still build Focus by using impale, ripper (it's really a small cone) and the first two attacks. If we allow Spines to build with throw spines and spine burst, then it has the best of everything. What suddenly seems like Spine's biggest weakness (ST damage) becomes almost non-existent with the new AS. If we only allow ST attacks and small melee cones to build Focus (Rippers and Jacobs Ladder), then Spines can make a choice to either go all out on aoe or build Focus for ST damage if it's just a boss left, but I don't think the set should have both advantages. |
I'd hope and assume that since this tech is already in game, it would apply similarly to the garnering of Assassin's Focus, with whatever you're targeting being the determining factor for gaining a stack. This does bring up the curiosity of [Spine Burst] and [Burst], since both are non-targeted PBAoE's, they would have an inherent advantage in generation of Assassin's Focus...
Hrm...
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http://www.change.org/petitions/ncso...city-of-heroes
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I. want. NOW.|
Originally Posted by Supernumiphone
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Edit: Who still uses Placate + AS on a team anymore? That is so 2008.
I pulled my Kat/sr out of retirement when I heard about this. Hopefully she'll actually do sum decent dmg.
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I'm not seeing a problem with it, considering the AT its going to.|
Originally Posted by Siolfir
Essentially what the change says is, "We decided to up Stalker DPS by giving every primary something that can outperform old Energy Transfer over time using only 2 attacks in between, only it's on a shorter recharge and doesn't have self damage. Oh, and you get it at level 6. Enjoy!" |
Some things to keep in mind (feel free to correct me if I make a mistake here):
- Most Stalker builds will still be short on AoE output compared to Scrappers, Brutes & Tankers.
- Unlike those three ATs, Stalkers do not have damage auras to help boost their damage output (both ST & AoE).
- Stalkers have BU, which is good for burst damage but generally not as good as persistent damage buffs for ST DPS.
Scrappers in particular with their high Melee Scalar have excellent DPS potential when combined with persistent Damage buffs.
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Originally Posted by Siolfir
I have to agree with the comment that Stalkers will suddenly shoot up the charts for single target damage once you add this in to your attack chains.
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Stalkers being awesome at ST burst and ST DPS, I think this is perfect.
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Agreed. And I say this thinking the change won't likely have me rolling a Stalker at the beginning of i22 right now.|
Originally Posted by Deus_Otiosus
Stalkers being awesome at ST burst and ST DPS, I think this is perfect.
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<_< *beta has shown me I love Titan Weapons* >_>
BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection
I am so happy with these changes. I liked playing */WP scrappers, but always wished they had a self heal instead of RttC. Now I will be playing */WP stalkers just for that reason. Stalkers will never replace scrappers, but I can see them being more useful on teams.
Are they lowering the cast time for Assassin Strike as well?
lvl 50 - Elec/WP/Mu Mastery Stalker, lvl 50 - Dark/EA/Soul Mastery Stalker, lvl 50 - EM/Nin/Soul Mastery Stalker
New Toons
lvl 21 - StJ/WP Stalker
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OMG YES! Totally agree! I wish my WP Scrapper had Reconstruction over RTTC!
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Originally Posted by Aumakua
I am so happy with these changes. I liked playing */WP scrappers, but always wished they had a self heal instead of RttC. Now I will be playing */WP stalkers just for that reason. Stalkers will never replace scrappers, but I can see them being more useful on teams.
Are they lowering the cast time for Assassin Strike as well? |
BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection
I have 2 stalkers one created during the roll out of COV and one much later EM/EA and DB/WP.I have not done much with them for the incarnate as both have to go into "scrapper Mode" during the Itrials. Stalkers are by nature very similar to snipers, as the go in take out the target and leave, Like the one shot one kill. to go into scrapper mode is like going from a high powered scoped rifle to a grenade lobber.
one change i would like to see rolled back is as I access a glowie,to not surpress my hide.
and DB stalkers do have a small cone attack,not t a true aoe but it is something.
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Not sure about the +crit buff added by Assassin's Focus. Synapse never really clarified on that, but then I don't think anyone ever posted "So 10%+ 33%x3 stacks?" in the thread he's discussing in so the issue was never brought up. I didn't even begin to think those numbers were anything but a straight accumulative added chance vs a modified chance...But I specifically remember him saying Assassin's Focus only stacks 3 times and after you use Assassin's Strike (hit or miss) all the points are spent.
And the above numbers get worse when you add in Placate. Basically, you're practically penalized every time you try to use them as a pair...not trying to cradle the Placate > AS combo, but for mid-combat Demoralize, you shouldn't need to sacrifice so much...especially if they're just handing out free-crit AS >_>
Edit: given the information about the damage scale changing and my edits to the post earlier, these are incorrect (either too high due to no chance of a double crit, or too low because the damage scale used was wrong) but I'm not bothering to recalculate them - they won't even come close when compared to the out-of-hidden numbers; basically all of the conclusions here are irrelevant if they go through with their plan as listed by Synapse in the quotes above.
While I'm at it, since I didn't include it before:
AS from Placate (all scale 7.25 to include the 10% "double critical" chance):
3 sec animation: scale 1.484/sec
2.67 sec (KM): scale 1.570/sec
3.17 sec (StJ): scale 1.408/sec
3.67 sec (DB, shorter Placate): scale 1.337/sec
3.67 sec (BS, NB): scale 1.308/sec
A 1 second trim gives the out-of-hidden AS a 1.225 at 10% chance, so even the worst Placate+AS still slightly beats it at the cost of possibly being interrupted. The more I look at the numbers, the more I think they're simply going to trim one second out of the wind-up; anything else just doesn't make a lot of sense from a balance standpoint within the bounds of the AT itself. As for balance between the other melee ATs, maybe someone else can run some attack chains based on those assumptions and see what the numbers look like in a chain compared to mid-to-high-end Scrapper and Brute single-target chains? While I like this idea, I think that a one-second trim is a little short of pushing Stalkers past either of those two over time, so it would only be part of the solution.
What's funny is that until I just started doing these I didn't notice that Dual Blades has a shorter Placate animation (1.43 sec) than the others (1.5 sec), which makes it a full server tick (0.132 sec) less than all of the others at 1.584 arcanatime vs 1.716 for the others.