It's time to improve Broadsword


Arcanaville

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by EvilGeko View Post
That's easy, increased Fury generation from the attacks is all you need for Brutes. For tankers you could create a state where Slash's Bruising is increased.
Poor forgotten tankers. I forgot to even mention them :x


 

Posted

Thoughts:

Brutes: Increased Fury generation from attacks.

Scrappers: Increased *damage* from criticals, as opposed to increased critical chance.

Tanks: Bruising effect increased.


Moonlighter

50s include MA/SD, MA/SR, DP/Elec, Claw/Inv, Kat/Dark, Kat/Fire, Spine/Regen, Dark/SD

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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Moonlighter View Post
Scrappers: Increased *damage* from criticals, as opposed to increased critical chance.
You know that by itself would fix a lot while giving Broadsword something unique.


The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.

 

Posted

Personally I'd rather simply change the damage type from all lethal (which is heavily resisted) to a combination of lethal and smashing (that is less so). From a concept perspective it works due to the heavy weight/impact of the weapon compared to Katana which is very quick, light and slicey.
The addition of the smashing damage should allow BS to excel against a greater number of mob types.


L50s: Tanks: Cryofission - Ice/EM - Dr Celsius - Fire/Ice - Saint George - SD/SS | Controllers: Psichosis - Ill/Kin - Major Chaos - Ill/Stm | Scrappers - Neutron Crusader - DM/SR

Currently Levelling: Angelic Blade - BS/WP Scrapper | Seeds of Destruction - Plant/Kin Controller

 

Posted

How about adding the concept that because the broadsword is such a massive weapon that the sheer force of the blow "weakens" the enemy until they have a chance to recover?

You can add an illusionary damage component on top of the existing damage to all of broadswords attacks to simulate this effect.


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-Nethergoat

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vauluur View Post
Of the list you made, which did not include the more recently popular topic of a Build Up replacement, this is the most attractive option to me. It's also in keeping with the original idea behind the set, as I believe the description used to say (maybe still does) that Broadsword hit harder than Katana but was heavier and slower. Plus, I like big orange numbers.

Well...not to quibble, but the very first option I listed was a build up based boost.


****

Premise: BS is the best melee weapon set for alpha striking, but correspondingly is less sustainable than other melee weapon sets.

To make that true, BS build up has its bonus doubled, but also its END cost and recharge increased commensurately (though not necessarily equally)

****


But that aside, glad you liked one of the other options anyway.


 

Posted

What I'd like to see is a build-up that would max the damage of the next attack, or drastically increase it if maxing is too much. Would make the set by far the best burst damage, but with a long enough recharge it wouldn't DPS considerably. I'm thinking a 2k non-critical Headsplitter.


TW/Elec Optimization

 

Posted

I was thinking about the topic of revamping Broadsword recently, but I was thinking of just giving it the Katana treatment, i.e., entirely unique animations. With Titan Weapons coming out (possibly) sometime this year, Broadsword needs something to make it stand out other than just mechanics.


@Demobot

Also on Steam

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Demobot View Post
I was thinking about the topic of revamping Broadsword recently, but I was thinking of just giving it the Katana treatment, i.e., entirely unique animations. With Titan Weapons coming out (possibly) sometime this year, Broadsword needs something to make it stand out other than just mechanics.
The problem is that new animations require help from the art department. And, not that everyone else isn't busy, but the art department has always been swamped when new updates were coming. Seeing as they are probably working on a hundred things we don't even know about yet, it's important for the Broadsword change to be "quick and dirty". Otherwise, it probably won't be implemented.


@Rorn ---- Blue Baron ---- Guardian

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by EvilGeko View Post
You know that by itself would fix a lot while giving Broadsword something unique.
I'm not exactly sure it fixes a lot, but it does have the advantage of focusing any damage increase benefit into larger visible numbers. Psychologically, that sort of buff will look even better than it is to most people.

For example, if I say "increase crit damage to 150%" that's going to look *huge*. Its not. Its equivalent to about a three percent increase in damage across the board. But its occasional burst damage will increase dramatically.


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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Moonlighter View Post
Thoughts:

Brutes: Increased Fury generation from attacks.

Scrappers: Increased *damage* from criticals, as opposed to increased critical chance.

Tanks: Bruising effect increased.
Of course Stalker is always left out. :P

A lot of melee set discussions always leave out Stalker's existence....


PS: But I agree Broadsword is quite boring. Ninja Blade has better animations and the mechanism works better. Broadsword is just another copy of Ninja Blade but slower. It really has next to no advantage or uniqueness. And I would think you need two-hand for a large sword? One-hand sword and mace just look very weak.


What's left is to normalize all Assassin Strikes and improve Stalker's old sets (Claw, MA and EM)! You don't need to bring back the missing PbAoE attack. You just need to make the existing ones better! For example, make Slice a WIDER and LONGER cone.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arcanaville View Post

For example, if I say "increase crit damage to 150%" that's going to look *huge*. Its not. Its equivalent to about a three percent increase in damage across the board. But its occasional burst damage will increase dramatically.
One advantage of Increased Critical Damage is that when it happens, it may be good enough to one-shot or two-shot a minion, which provides more safety. Ninja Blade, on the other hand, may need 3-4 fast hits to kill a minion but does more dps in the long run due to much faster animation.

By the way, Increased Critical Damage could be a good idea for Stalkers. :P

Broadsword just needs something more unique.


What's left is to normalize all Assassin Strikes and improve Stalker's old sets (Claw, MA and EM)! You don't need to bring back the missing PbAoE attack. You just need to make the existing ones better! For example, make Slice a WIDER and LONGER cone.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arcanaville View Post
I'm not exactly sure it fixes a lot, but it does have the advantage of focusing any damage increase benefit into larger visible numbers. Psychologically, that sort of buff will look even better than it is to most people.

For example, if I say "increase crit damage to 150%" that's going to look *huge*. Its not. Its equivalent to about a three percent increase in damage across the board. But its occasional burst damage will increase dramatically.
I was thinking 200% crits for just that reason.

Well, Titan Weapons makes Broadsword (and other sets) into a bad joke. This buff is needed more than ever.


The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jibikao View Post
Of course Stalker is always left out. :P
Not my OP. I like Stalkers!


The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by EvilGeko View Post
I was thinking 200% crits for just that reason.

Well, Titan Weapons makes Broadsword (and other sets) into a bad joke. This buff is needed more than ever.
Well, let's see what it looks like live.


 

Posted

I had a idea.. Maybe change Build up to Break Armour recharge 2 mins last 30 secs all Broadsword attacks cause -res like 7.5% for most and Hack, Disembowl and Headsplitter 10%
or replace Parry with it so Katana is a defence sword set and Broadsword a damage dealing sword set.
Or replace Parry with Shatter Armour attack but more like 20% -res for 10 secs like Clobber rech 16 secs base damage 182.


 

Posted

I bugs me that so many people are into proposing set buffs that come with some sort of downside while active. That's either not a buff (aiming for some sort of zero-sum change) or it's a very small one.

The whole point of the OP was to suggest the set needs improvement. Obviously, asking for radically overpowered changes is not going to get anywhere, but I don't want the set's character changed for some 3% DPS increase. Adding things like a self-debuff on Build Up is going to change how my characters play and how I would want them built, and frankly, I'm not very interested in having to deal with that for tiny improvements.

I would either like a simple, no-cost improvement or the set left alone. Anything else is annoying. The goal in the OP is supposed to be to make the set perform better compared to its peers, not be new, different, or more interesting for its own sake than people think it is now.


Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA

 

Posted

While I can't argue with a revision to Broadsword, I think we'd have to consider Katana, Mace and Axe in the spectrum to ensure we didn't wind up with two sets with vaguely different animations yet the same effects.

I'd be super thrilled if Broadsword got some slightly different animations and maybe more emphasis on the defense debuff. As it is, it feels like the middle-child to Axe and Katana.


Life is pleasant. Death is peaceful. It's the transition that's troublesome.
Isaac Asimov

 

Posted

Just because a power set don't match what you want, Doesn't mean people think the same thing. I Have a Broadsword toon and they play just well, So yeah they don't need to be change.


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Posted

I think Broadsword is perfectly functional, but as something I play among many other melee sets, I do think it has fallen behind in performance. Its closest functional peer, Katana, does pretty much everything Broadsword does but with better DPS. At this point, I'm pretty sure all other powersets can out DPS Broadsword. So when deciding what to play if you come down to wanting the things Katana and Broadsword do, the only reasons (in PvE) to pick Broadsword over Katana are concept and burst damage.

I think that Broadsword is in this position because, over the years, other original powersets with which it was a peer were buffed. Katana, Dark Melee and Martial Arts have all undergone some significant changes. Katana hasn't changed significantly in a long time, but back when it was changed, its animation changes made it's DPA (and thus DPS) much improved. Broadsword, though, has stood still.

I think that means its at least worth asking if there's something that could improve it, to help keep it on par. I just want it to be something basic, not a complicated reworking of the core powers of the set.


Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by EvilGeko View Post
I was thinking 200% crits for just that reason.

Well, Titan Weapons makes Broadsword (and other sets) into a bad joke. This buff is needed more than ever.
The problem with the 200% crits is that it wouldn't necessarily help out brutes, or potentially tankers.

This has probably been suggested elsewhere, but how about a totally independent flat 10% chance of a crit on brutes (potentially tankers) and about 12% on stalkers and scrappers?

You're far more likely to get some kind of crit on a scrapper, and you could potentially double crit. (3X damage would be very nice)

I'm not sure what kind of damage shortfall we're looking at here, but with the exception of single hard targets, this would probably grant a fair bit less than 10% in actual play... just because of the wasted overkill damage. EDIT: waiting around to see if an attack crit before executing the next attack is not likely to increase dps on average... extra time queuing is likely to more than kill any gains you'd make in efficiency


With regards to TW, I think they're probably better (parry is still the better defensive power) but significantly more player consideration is needed to make the set perform.

I don't think it's wrong to have more capacity if you have to work for it

I'd say a bigger problem would be DB. You do extra work and still fall short.


The cake is a lie! The cake is a lie!

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Spiritchaser View Post
The problem with the 200% crits is that it wouldn't necessarily help out brutes, or potentially tankers.

This has probably been suggested elsewhere, but how about a totally independent flat 10% chance of a crit on brutes (potentially tankers) and about 12% on stalkers and scrappers?
The "Fiery Embrace" like behavior I proposed earlier would sidestep this. Everyone would get it, and I proposed it being independent of critical hits on ATs that do get them.


Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by UberGuy View Post
The "Fiery Embrace" like behavior I proposed earlier would sidestep this. Everyone would get it, and I proposed it being independent of critical hits on ATs that do get them.
I'm tellin' ya, re-name Broadsword Buildup as 'Mordstreich' and have it identical to fiery embrace, except with smashing damage.

Bif-bam, yer done here. It's even balanced, as the loss of the +to-hit would help even out the extra damages.

I like this plan. Somebody call a Dev!


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by mauk2 View Post
I'm tellin' ya, re-name Broadsword Buildup as 'Mordstreich' and have it identical to fiery embrace, except with smashing damage.
I wouldn't want it identical to Fiery Embrace.

First of all, there's no reason why wielding a broadsword would make my damage aura or pool attacks or other non-sword attacks should do any extra smashing damage. Any FE-like behavior of the set should be restricted to the sword attacks themselves. But if that's the case, then all our other powers lose the benefit of +damage that Build Up gives today. That's why I propose that a (small) amount of bonus smashing damage be added with Build Up that affects Broadsword attacks only, while leaving the existing +damage in place.

But we want the bonus damage to benefit from damage buffs, otherwise it doesn't scale with slotting or things like AAO or Fulcrum Shift, so that means the bonus damage also benefits from Build Up (unless they play games with timing, which I wouldn't like for such powers due to the potential for latency-augmented race conditions with activating other powers). That means the bonus damage scale needs to be chosen with the knowledge that it will basically always at least start with Build Up's benefit. (The two effects don't have to have the same durations, but the bonus damage probably shouldn't be much longer, if longer at all.)

This would, by the way, make BS/FA hit like a truck. Which I don't see as a problem, I just thought I'd mention it.


Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by UberGuy View Post
I wouldn't want it identical to Fiery Embrace.

First of all, there's no reason why wielding a broadsword would make my damage aura or pool attacks or other non-sword attacks should do any extra smashing damage. Any FE-like behavior of the set should be restricted to the sword attacks themselves. But if that's the case, then all our other powers lose the benefit of +damage that Build Up gives today. That's why I propose that a (small) amount of bonus smashing damage be added with Build Up that affects Broadsword attacks only, while leaving the existing +damage in place.

But we want the bonus damage to benefit from damage buffs, otherwise it doesn't scale with slotting or things like AAO or Fulcrum Shift, so that means the bonus damage also benefits from Build Up (unless they play games with timing, which I wouldn't like for such powers due to the potential for latency-augmented race conditions with activating other powers). That means the bonus damage scale needs to be chosen with the knowledge that it will basically always at least start with Build Up's benefit. (The two effects don't have to have the same durations, but the bonus damage probably shouldn't be much longer, if longer at all.)

Yeah, I see your point, but that's WAY complicated. Just make it a Fiery Embrace clone, swap damage types, and call it a day. You get 95 percent of the verisimilitude you want for 5 percent of the coding effort.

But maybe I'm just lazy.


Quote:
This would, by the way, make BS/FA hit like a truck. Which I don't see as a problem, I just thought I'd mention it.
BS/FA ALREADY hits like a truck. This would make it hit like a freakin' asteroid.

And that is how it should be, the combo needs some help in my opinion.