Suppose instead of having a sleep effect that applied when the attacks missed, you gave every attack a small chance of causing terrify on the target. The idea is similar in that it is a soft control, since terrified foes still attack you if they are being attacked. It also goes with the concept of Broadsword since the opponent would be terrified of your powerful attacks.
The sleep idea is interesting, but I agree with EG that it would be working against the existing traits of the set - and I like those.
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Quote:
The sleep effect is a 'saving throw': you never want to see it, but if you do, it's because you needed it and the alternative was having no effect at all.
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Originally Posted by Vauluur
The sleep idea is interesting, but I agree with EG that it would be working against the existing traits of the set - and I like those.
|
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That's just not enough of a change then. It might as well not change anything. How different would it be that the one target you miss falls asleep? Especially since sleep would get broken on your next attack.
@Rorn ---- Blue Baron ---- Guardian
Quote:
No matter what, there's always a chance to miss. This effect, whatever it was, would happen during some of those occasions. And I should point out that no amount of -defense or accuracy can reduce that chance to miss lower than 5%.
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Originally Posted by EvilGeko
The only concern I would have with that is that assuming the set kept its -defense and accuracy bonus they would always be working against that effect.
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1. Sleep means they cannot attack.|
Originally Posted by Vauluur
That's just not enough of a change then. It might as well not change anything. How different would it be that the one target you miss falls asleep? Especially since sleep would get broken on your next attack.
|
2. Unlike terrorize, sleep detoggles.
3. Broadsword has AoEs.
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That's true, but I don't believe that a 5% chance of something happening is the change Broadsword needs. It needs more. An interesting idea, but it needs something else with it.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
No matter what, there's always a chance to miss. This effect, whatever it was, would happen during some of those occasions. And I should point out that no amount of -defense or accuracy can reduce that chance to miss lower than 5%.
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@Rorn ---- Blue Baron ---- Guardian
Quote:
That's the intent. I tossed in the sleep because that's what I thought of first, and it works, but the crux of the suggestion is not "add sleep" but rather "add glancing blow mechanics." The effect itself is negotiable. It could have been knockdown, or disorient, or anything else consistent with a glancing blow. I picked something reasonable that would not be too overpowered given the fact the mechanic itself allows Broadsword to hit things that normally it would have missed: a specifically unique and potentially very valuable mechanic.
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Originally Posted by Kitsune9tails
The sleep effect is a 'saving throw': you never want to see it, but if you do, it's because you needed it and the alternative was having no effect at all.
|
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Yes, I'm aware that it has Slice and Whirling Sword. I've been playing my BS/Invuln almost exclusively for 6 years. I almost never miss more than one or two targets when I use an AoE. The detoggling would be a valid point in my mind if PVP was the main thing under discussion. I find that it's a non-issue in PVE. Most enemies that have toggles die quickly, and AVs are usually under extreme debuffs from the team anyway. And yes, things can't attack when they are asleep. But you would be negating one, maybe two attacks before you or a teammate woke the target up.|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
1. Sleep means they cannot attack.
2. Unlike terrorize, sleep detoggles. 3. Broadsword has AoEs. |
I'm under the impression that we want something that makes Broadsword have a unique effect that also gets it to be on par with other Scrapper sets. A 5% chance to negate one or two attacks will not do that.
@Rorn ---- Blue Baron ---- Guardian
Quote:
I agree that this could be very valuable sometimes. I don't look at it as 5% chance of sleep, but very high % chance of temporarily incapacitating a mob with annoyingly high defense or to-hit debuffs. Particularly when those are toggle effects, that's very powerful. I'm actually not a fan, perhaps BECAUSE it could be so very powerful. Definitely situational, though, so maybe it's not THAT bad, and you could certainly tune the % chance of the extra effect.|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
That's the intent. I tossed in the sleep because that's what I thought of first, and it works, but the crux of the suggestion is not "add sleep" but rather "add glancing blow mechanics." The effect itself is negotiable. It could have been knockdown, or disorient, or anything else consistent with a glancing blow. I picked something reasonable that would not be too overpowered given the fact the mechanic itself allows Broadsword to hit things that normally it would have missed: a specifically unique and potentially very valuable mechanic.
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I'm still for burst damage, though.
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Quote:
I tossed in the idea a ten percent chance for this effect to occur. The 5% is the minimum chance for you to miss, even if you are at the tohit cap, and therefore the minimum opportunity for this effect to go off even under the circumstances EG alluded to where Broadsword made missing itself unlikely.|
Originally Posted by Vauluur
That's true, but I don't believe that a 5% chance of something happening is the change Broadsword needs. It needs more. An interesting idea, but it needs something else with it.
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We were talking about ways to differentiate Broadsword from Katana. Differentiation is not really a quantity thing, its a qualitative thing. More different than having unique mechanics that exist nowhere else in the game doesn't really exist: there is nothing more differentiating than that. Whether Broadsword quantitatively underperforms Katana is a separate issue, and one that can be addressed separately and numerically.
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Well, let's back up a moment, and ask that question:|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Whether Broadsword quantitatively underperforms Katana is a separate issue, and one that can be addressed separately and numerically.
|
How would you balance Katana and Broadsword numerically, without adding/swapping mechanics, if the mandate was that Katana should continue to be faster with higher DPS, and that broadsword should have higher burst and/or higher DPA?
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The thread title is "It's time to improve Broadsword" not "It's time to make Broadsword different". Differentiation is important, but the set will still be unappealing if it quantitatively underperforms every other weapon set, which it does. I'm not saying that the mechanic is in itself a bad idea. It is a very good one. I'm just saying it won't do much to fix the issues the set has. Something needs to be done to increase and emphasize the strengths of Broadsword. If you told me this mechanic was being implemented AND a unique Build Up replacement was coming with it, I'd be on board.
On a side note, I understand that 5% is the minimum chance to miss, a.k.a. streak breaker. If what I'm reading about your idea is correct, there's a 10% chance for this effect (whatever it is) to occur IF you miss to begin with. So if I miss 10 targets, I would (on paper) hit one with this extra effect. I see how that is different, and I see how it could sometimes be useful. What I don't see is how that improves Broadsword enough to justify choosing it over Katana, or say, Titan Weapons. Keep in mind Titan Weapons has a new mechanic all it's own to draw in new players.
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Quote:
That's an excellent idea. That's the question that needs answered. The most appealing (and simplest) option so far has been a unique replacement for Build Up such as a modified Rage or Inner Light.|
Originally Posted by Kitsune9tails
Well, let's back up a moment, and ask that question:
How would you balance Katana and Broadsword numerically, without adding/swapping mechanics, if the mandate was that Katana should continue to be faster with higher DPS, and that broadsword should have higher burst and/or higher DPA? |
I can figure out the exact details of the differences tomorrow, as it's getting late. Once I have all the numbers written out, I'll type them here to show quantitatively how Broadsword needs adjusted.
@Rorn ---- Blue Baron ---- Guardian
Quote:
In this game, for sufficient recharge higher DPA is higher DPS, and any change that deals with the levels when that is not true will probably draw a lot of crap from people saying those levels don't matter.|
Originally Posted by Kitsune9tails
Well, let's back up a moment, and ask that question:
How would you balance Katana and Broadsword numerically, without adding/swapping mechanics, if the mandate was that Katana should continue to be faster with higher DPS, and that broadsword should have higher burst and/or higher DPA? |
There's really only one genuinely problematic Broadsword attack, and that is Slash. Its DPA is, factoring in arcanatime, 0.63 DS/sec (not counting crits). That's rather low. Its comparable power in Katana is Gambler, and its DPA is 0.91. That's actually higher than average. So the Broadsword attack is below average and the Katana comparable attack is above average. That alone accounts for a significant amount of the single target DPS differential for the two sets. I'd either speed up Slash somewhat, or alternatively and more likely increase its damage from 1.0 to 1.32 (recharge would increase from 4 to 6 seconds).
Beyond that, I would probably make some mechanical change that added some frontloading on damage and see where I was at.
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I'm directly responding to posts, not to the original title of the thread. I expect people likewise to respond to what I say in the context of when I said it. In this case, consider that the post you were referencing was a post I made to the OP of the thread, asking me explicitly and directly about the idea of adding confuse mez to the set.|
Originally Posted by Vauluur
The thread title is "It's time to improve Broadsword" not "It's time to make Broadsword different".
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Quote:
| What I don't see is how that improves Broadsword enough to justify choosing it over Katana, or say, Titan Weapons. |
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In terms of a Miss/Save-Roll... Doesn't really feel like a "unique" mechanic. It (in terms of how it happens) definitely is, but the broken-down action is really no different than tossing a 5/10/25% Chance to Stun/Sleep/KD/KU/KB a target when you do hit (although, granted, Broadsword does only have two powers with mitigation KU/KD). I partially agree with Werner that there may be scenarios where that's too powerful (1-20, despite the "Accuracy Boost", still plenty of misses in there, upping the ante on how often you'll probably see something mezzed).|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
I tossed in the idea a ten percent chance for this effect to occur. The 5% is the minimum chance for you to miss, even if you are at the tohit cap, and therefore the minimum opportunity for this effect to go off even under the circumstances EG alluded to where Broadsword made missing itself unlikely.
We were talking about ways to differentiate Broadsword from Katana. Differentiation is not really a quantity thing, its a qualitative thing. More different than having unique mechanics that exist nowhere else in the game doesn't really exist: there is nothing more differentiating than that. Whether Broadsword quantitatively under performs Katana is a separate issue, and one that can be addressed separately and numerically. |
After taking a look at the in-game information for what's available (on live) for Titan/Staff Fighting, both have new unique mechanics; and Staff fighting actually looks a tad on the more complex side with the amount of variant options they're giving us in the new "Forms". Seeing Titan Weapon's "Momentum" plan does leave room for hope, but I'm personally starting to settle in the boat that (given how much new flair will be coming out with intricate and multiple moving pieces like Combo's, Forms, and Mechanics) maybe a simple and adequate change is best for now.
...Which reverts me back to the original agreement everyone had in sprucing up Broadsword's Build Up (and this is kind of generally directed to the whole threads thoughts). Inner Light (now that I've been made aware of it after missing the patch notes on PB improvements) doesn't seem like a bad path, and getting it "Perma" isn't too difficult (40% Global, Hasten, and Spiritual Alpha with ~59% Rech in IL), but it also looks like super-recharge builds will have an easy time of overlapping it by 5-10-15 seconds, which is less ideal but if we downside the power and make overlap dangerous, we could balance it for Broadsword.
So I'm thinking, we want to keep our campy Burst feel, but give it some good love at the same time. 90/s Rech, 30/s total power duration:
5/s 120% +Dam & +15% To-Hit
5/s 80% +Dam & 10% To-Hit
10/s 25% +Dam & 5% To-Hit
...and the latter 20/s (of a 30/s duration) would be -20% Recovery, -10% Spd with the last ten seconds including -10% To-Hit.
With this nature, if it starts to "Stack", the expense becomes greater, and the last ten second -10% To-Hit will cancel out part or all of the start for the new one, the -20% Recovery will potentially double, and the -Spd will start to double. It keeps its "Bursty" feel, averages out it's damage a little bit without giving it the capacity to jump ahead, and specifically penalizes super-charged builds to avoid it from gaining the potential to match or exceed its current limit while improve it's desired effect. The -Recov emphasizes exhaustion from suddenly pushing the "crazy" button, slowing you down (-Spd).
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Warning: crazy space limit reached. Please delete some crazy and try again. |
Quote:
Uh, whut?|
Originally Posted by John_Printemps
So I'm thinking, we want to keep our campy Burst feel, but give it some good love at the same time. 90/s Rech, 30/s total power duration:
5/s 120% +Dam & +15% To-Hit 5/s 80% +Dam & 10% To-Hit 10/s 25% +Dam & 5% To-Hit ...and the latter 20/s (of a 30/s duration) would be -20% Recovery, -10% Spd with the last ten seconds including -10% To-Hit. |
So, regular Buildup is +100% damages, +20% tohit, ten seconds, 90 sec rech.
This version always sucks worse at +to-hit. It gives 5 seconds of 20 percent more damage. Then 5 seconds of WORSE damage. Then 10 seconds of 25 percent better damage. So far it's slightly better. Very slightly.
But then it kills my end recovery for TWENTY seconds AND nukes my recharge.
How is this ANY better for burst damage than the standard buildup? Working like mad to boost your recharge PENALIZES you? Lolwut?!
Scrappers tend to have simple pleasures. If you want to make Buildup better on a BS toon, just double the duration and call it a wash.
I don't see why anybody would like this as written. Perhaps I misunderstand something?
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While I agree that measures would have to be taken to prevent the power from making Broadsword OP, I'm not sure this is the way to go. I'm reading these numbers as they'd be listed in game, which would mean the first 5 seconds would be a boost of 225% damage and 30% to hit. Is that what you meant? If so, that's way too much. If not, then the numbers you gave add up to 40 seconds, not 30. It would be better to just increase the recharge and remove the penalty.|
Originally Posted by John_Printemps
So I'm thinking, we want to keep our campy Burst feel, but give it some good love at the same time. 90/s Rech, 30/s total power duration:
5/s 120% +Dam & +15% To-Hit 5/s 80% +Dam & 10% To-Hit 10/s 25% +Dam & 5% To-Hit ...and the latter 20/s (of a 30/s duration) would be -20% Recovery, -10% Spd with the last ten seconds including -10% To-Hit. With this nature, if it starts to "Stack", the expense becomes greater, and the last ten second -10% To-Hit will cancel out part or all of the start for the new one, the -20% Recovery will potentially double, and the -Spd will start to double. It keeps its "Bursty" feel, averages out it's damage a little bit without giving it the capacity to jump ahead, and specifically penalizes super-charged builds to avoid it from gaining the potential to match or exceed its current limit while improve it's desired effect. The -Recov emphasizes exhaustion from suddenly pushing the "crazy" button, slowing you down (-Spd). |
So it would work like this:
30 sec duration, 120 sec recharge (need 300% recharge boost to make it perma)
When you click the power it gives you the following buffs all at once:
30 sec buff of +25% to Damage, +5% To-Hit
15 sec buff of +50% to Damage, +15% To-Hit
5 sec buff of +45% to Damage, +10% To-Hit
Thus, for the first 5 seconds after activating the power you have a buff of +120% Damage and +30% To-Hit. It's more powerful than standard Build Up but only gives you time to fire off one or two attacks. For the next 10 seconds you have a buff of +75% to Damage and +20% To-Hit. That's still a pretty hefty buff to your attacks. The final 15 seconds have the steep drop to only +25% to Damage and +5% To-Hit.
The increased recharge makes it possible to get perma, but it's not easy. Part of me wants to say increase it to 150 sec recharge, but then you almost have to build for a massive recharge boost to get any use out of it. 120 seconds should be sufficiently long that only experienced/dedicated players will be running around with insane damage boosts all the time. Though, it could also be given an endurance crash like Hasten, where it takes like 20 endurance or something when it crashes. That would discourage stacking to avoid having the crash happen twice in a short period.
@Rorn ---- Blue Baron ---- Guardian
If Broadsword Build Up imposed say, a -20% Debuff to Defense while it was running, would there be any amount of +% Recharge, Damage and Accuracy that would make the power acceptable?
Just curious.
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That's a very big debuff. I think having it be so significant would remove the benefit of having Parry, which is probably the strongest power in the set at the moment. For a penalty like that, you would need to be gaining an enormous benefit.|
Originally Posted by Kitsune9tails
-20% Debuff to Defense
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Now, a debuff half that size would be much more acceptible. But I don't know that I like the idea to be honest. I'd rather see it stay normal Build Up than run the risk of dying when I used it.
It would be acceptible in the form of a Rage clone, but that runs the risk of being too powerful, and may be the reason why Super Strength hasn't been ported to Scrappers yet. Rage is simply Build Up with a 120s duration and 240s recharge. It is followed by a defense debuff that lasts 10s, a loss of 25 (I think) endurance, and a 10s debuff that basically makes you do no damage. I can see why Rage warrants that penalty at the end. But that's a key difference, it's at the end. Not the whole time it runs.
So basically, for -20% defense while running I would have to see really high numbers, something like +300% damage and +20% to-hit for 10s. I don't think that's going to happen, but it would be worth taking a few hits.
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I use to hate rage until they changed it to where the defense debuff could be elminated by reapplying rage.
I'm fully opposed against any ability that will penalize my survivabiltiy for using it in a set that already doesn't have such a mechanic.
Quote:
Personally, I'm not crazy about -defense self debuffs because they are usually too radically disproportionate in their effects on defensive and non-defensive mitigation sets. A -20% defense debuff would be enormous vs SR or EA, and far less so against Dark Armor or Regen, say.|
Originally Posted by Kitsune9tails
If Broadsword Build Up imposed say, a -20% Debuff to Defense while it was running, would there be any amount of +% Recharge, Damage and Accuracy that would make the power acceptable?
Just curious. |
I'd be more open to negotiation on a negative Elusivity debuff (which would affect everyone proportionately the same) but the devs seem reluctant to employ that feature. I think they want to compartmentalize Elusivity for PvP, which is ironic given its primary intended purpose was to solve PvE issues.
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I understand others are not as amused by the idea, but I personally like the idea of a Berserker version of Build Up for Broadsword that sidesteps the disparity between super-Recharge builds and less expensive builds by having a penalty while it is up.
In return, it could have a shorter Recharge from the get go, and be available essentially all the time.
In a way, it counters Parry...except that you would never use Berserk against a foe you needed to Parry.
An Elusivity penalty of say, 5% might warrant fairly huge bonuses, since it effectively doubles the amount of damage a very high Defense build takes while it is up...while penalizing lower Defense builds proportionately less.
I think you absolutely could tweak the numbers so that it is a net improvement for Broadsword.
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