It's time to improve Broadsword
I don't really like your idea, because it just adds damage. If all I'm going to add is damage, then I would prefer AoE damage because really that's what matters.
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If there was an obvious concept for Broadsword that suggested an alternate avenue of powerset focus, I'd probably do that instead.
As to AoE being the only thing that matters, right now I believe its a worthy goal to not succumb to that notion. When I decide its no longer a worthy goal I'm going to flip to the opposite side and demand massive AoE for *everything* with a commensurate evisceration in rewards. A part of me really doesn't care which way that goes anymore. All I know is the silly inchworm ratcheting of AoE is the most intellectually dishonest approach to the issue which I will never be a party to.
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If there was an obvious concept for Broadsword that suggested an alternate avenue of powerset focus, I'd probably do that instead.
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...to mez effects and debuffs (speed/rcgh/-def)
"Every brutal blow of that huge sword messes with your head, making it harder and harder to cope with everything that comes your way (but damage, 'cos thats would be broken)"
As to AoE being the only thing that matters, right now I believe its a worthy goal to not succumb to that notion. When I decide its no longer a worthy goal I'm going to flip to the opposite side and demand massive AoE for *everything* with a commensurate evisceration in rewards. A part of me really doesn't care which way that goes anymore. All I know is the silly inchworm ratcheting of AoE is the most intellectually dishonest approach to the issue which I will never be a party to. |
If there was an obvious concept for Broadsword that suggested an alternate avenue of power set focus, I'd probably do that instead.
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Split the damage type 70/30 Lethal/Smashing, add a Demoralizing Mechanic, and provide a more unique "Build Up" (Berserk) to overall give the set a very defined and unique appeal that will interest people to move away from other sets without shoving it into the "Best Set Ever".
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
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That's why I suggested the below, in order to (fundamentally) keep the set where it is, but give it a more obvious purpose.
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The primary difference between giving broadsword -res instead of adding direct damage in terms of broad effect is that more damage means the broadsword wielder deals more damage, while -res means everyone on the team deals more damage. There's no clear justification given for why broadsword should have that effect. In this game, very hard smashing damage doesn't equate to becoming more vulnerable to more damage: if it did, that same conceptual justification should apply even more to Martial Arts, which in this game is all about smashing impacts far more than broadsword. It would apply even more to something like War Mace. And I think there should be some conceptual consistency between the powerset definitions, or they are just ad hoc excuses.
I like the idea of replacing Build Up with something unique: the whole idea of unique build up is actually something I've advocated for a very long time. It was a short cut to give most powersets a copy-paste build up, but things like Follow Up and Soul Drain provide better diversity. But rather than suggest a more fury-like effect you mentioned something related to Rage, which is not so much a totally different power as just a longer duration (and fundamentally because of that, almost always better) build up with a crash. A short duration rage that can stack is more of a follow up-like effect. Something *totally* unique would be something I would be more inclined to like. Like suppose we replace Build Up with a power with 30 second duration and 180 second recharge, and while it was up it offered a damage bonus that quickly ramped up from zero to a maximum (say, 125%) in ten seconds, then slowly decayed to zero over the next 20 seconds. More like a go berserk mode that slowly wears off.
It would still be "just more damage" as EG says but this wouldn't be here to explicitly add a radical new feature to Broadsword, and more to simply qualitatively distinguish it from Katana. Its "unique purpose" would still have to come from something it could do better than katana (and presumably most other sets).
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More like a go berserk mode that slowly wears off.
It would still be "just more damage" as EG says but this wouldn't be here to explicitly add a radical new feature to Broadsword, and more to simply qualitatively distinguish it from Katana. Its "unique purpose" would still have to come from something it could do better than katana (and presumably most other sets). |
As far as a unique purpose, how about expanding on the -def mechanic already in place?
In many movies and stories, a powerful strike from a broadsword leaves the opponent unable to defend themselves: they have been disarmed, their shield is broken, their armor is cloven open, etc.
What if there were a chance for a 'critical' -Def effect, that drastically reduced Defense for a very short time? The niche here is that Broadsword could be a 'go to' for foes that have high Defense (sort of 'compressing' the steady drain on defense that other sets like Katana manifest). Burst Damage by way of (team) Burst Accuracy, as it were?
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As to AoE being the only thing that matters, right now I believe its a worthy goal to not succumb to that notion. When I decide its no longer a worthy goal I'm going to flip to the opposite side and demand massive AoE for *everything* with a commensurate evisceration in rewards. A part of me really doesn't care which way that goes anymore. All I know is the silly inchworm ratcheting of AoE is the most intellectually dishonest approach to the issue which I will never be a party to.
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I absolutely agree with you that AoE is far to overvalued. But it's the devs that created that condition and they did it intentionally. It's why no one wants to play Stalkers. You could change this slavish focus on AoE just by making changes to the reward system.
But until they do that, I'm not going to shy away from asking for AoE because the devs' actions suggest that they intend for AoE to be preeminent.
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It would still be "just more damage" as EG says but this wouldn't be here to explicitly add a radical new feature to Broadsword, and more to simply qualitatively distinguish it from Katana. Its "unique purpose" would still have to come from something it could do better than katana (and presumably most other sets).
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The devs probably aren't going to give -res as a secondary effect (on all powers) to any melee set. Which is fine. Most other debuffs are already taken. I just want something interesting. Because more damage is just going to create the illusion of difference.
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But what is that obvious purpose? I did read your suggestion, but there wasn't an obvious unifying concept being directly implemented. Explaining the reason for adding the effect is not exactly the same thing as having a unifying concept or purpose.
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The primary difference between giving broadsword -res instead of adding direct damage in terms of broad effect is that more damage means the broadsword wielder deals more damage, while -res means everyone on the team deals more damage. There's no clear justification given for why broadsword should have that effect. In this game, very hard smashing damage doesn't equate to becoming more vulnerable to more damage: if it did, that same conceptual justification should apply even more to Martial Arts, which in this game is all about smashing impacts far more than broadsword. It would apply even more to something like War Mace. And I think there should be some conceptual consistency between the powerset definitions, or they are just ad hoc excuses.
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Over the years I've noticed that -res seems thematically appropriate for everything. By my recollection, its been thematically suggested for Martial Arts, Dark Melee, War Mace, Spines, Radiation Blast, and Brawl.
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The -Res, as you pointed out, is also opening not just "more damage" to Broadsword, but also to the team they may or may not be on as well. This same claim could be said about the -Def component in all of the attacks right now. I also never pinned that Smashing damage should roll with a -Res component, but that there is thematic and real world comparable evidence to say that when you pound on something, each additional hit does more damage. Say someone punches you and you get a bruise, then they hit you again in the same spot, the bruise gets worse, and worse, and worse inflicting more and more damage. That is where the "Demoralize" idea came from. Each subsequent hit hurts more, and is morally crushing, let alone physically painful. Do other sets deserve something similar? Yes, I think they do. In fact, to compare to another preexisting mechanic: Tanker Bruising. Repeatedly pounding on something to build -Resistance. Not all the sets deserve or need this kind of review, but much older sets that thematically could use it, and currently have no clear unique mechanics could easily benefit from them. War Mace functions a lot like Broadsword, so much that they both deserve a Demoralizing aspect.
I like the idea of replacing Build Up with something unique: the whole idea of unique build up is actually something I've advocated for a very long time. It was a short cut to give most power sets a copy-paste build up, but things like Follow Up and Soul Drain provide better diversity. But rather than suggest a more fury-like effect you mentioned something related to Rage, which is not so much a totally different power as just a longer duration (and fundamentally because of that, almost always better) build up with a crash. A short duration rage that can stack is more of a follow up-like effect. Something *totally* unique would be something I would be more inclined to like. Like suppose we replace Build Up with a power with 30 second duration and 180 second recharge, and while it was up it offered a damage bonus that quickly ramped up from zero to a maximum (say, 125%) in ten seconds, then slowly decayed to zero over the next 20 seconds. More like a go berserk mode that slowly wears off.
It would still be "just more damage" as EG says but this wouldn't be here to explicitly add a radical new feature to Broadsword, and more to simply qualitatively distinguish it from Katana. Its "unique purpose" would still have to come from something it could do better than katana (and presumably most other sets). |
Such changes solidify the "Medieval/Knight" mentality that comes with Broadsword, and would give it an identity that puts it in league with Katana (the lithe, quick and lethal) and Dual Blades (stacking precision moves).
But, I'm also fighting the flu right now so who knows if anything I just said makes sense, so I'm going back to bed
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
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The obvious purpose is the one standing in the open. To be Broadsword.
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Not a sub-par Katana clone, or just a lame-duck set that has sword animations and doesn't provide much of anything else. Broadsword should do exactly as anyone would expect it to and I gave real-world comparisons to iterate that. |
In many cases for very good game design reasons powers in-game don't work in a way perfectly consistent with real world physics, or even close analogs to real world physics. But if your concept is for broadsword to gain inspiration from actual broadswords in real life, then -resistance is almost certainly not a justifiable effect. Broadsword attacks do not, in general, increase the vulnerability of the target to take more damage from an attack that lands than they otherwise would.
Few things really actually do that, so relying on real world effects to justify that kind of game mechanical effect is hazardous. In the real world, cold doesn't always slow. But cold doesn't rely on real world physics to connect to that effect. Rather, the game specifically makes the cold/slow metaphor connection by fiat.
That's the sort of thing that's much better when done generally, and globally, rather than in an ad hoc manner.
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All MMOs generate more rewards for killing X number of weaker things rather than one stronger thing, for sufficiently large X. That doesn't mean the game is supposed to let you do it all the time.
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Note: yes I'm aware only Hami "drops" hamios, and only 47+ give purples and only players give PvP recipes, and there is a split between arcane and tech salvage. But its not like you have to hunt robots to get end mod sets, or only the nightwolves in striga drop triage and no other mobs anywhere else in the game world. Many other MMOs do that sort of thing.
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The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
Note: yes I'm aware only Hami "drops" hamios, and only 47+ give purples and only players give PvP recipes, and there is a split between arcane and tech salvage. But its not like you have to hunt robots to get end mod sets, or only the nightwolves in striga drop triage and no other mobs anywhere else in the game world. Many other MMOs do that sort of thing.
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The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
"Hmm, I guess I'm not as omniscient as I thought" -Gavin Runeblade.
I can be found, outside of paragon city here.
Thank you everyone at Paragon and on Virtue. When the lights go out in November, you'll find me on Razor Bunny.
I dunno guys...
I can think of a number of things that could stand a review before Broadsword... (Energy melee, Entire Stalker AT design, Gravity Control). The set plays pretty damn well as it is, and Parry is the bee's knees. |
'Fixing' broadsword is a matter of an afternoon's work to balance it, particularly because its brethren sets include a balanced, stable brother that is so very similar.
Despite my almost overwhelming prejudice for PnP DnD weapons, I've always thought that Broadsword should have a higher crit chance than any other Scrapper Primary, with the exception of Axe. Perhaps an increase of crit chance with it's attacks could set it apart. Obviously this doesn't address those classes that don't have a crit chance. And of course I could be a complete tool for such a suggestion.
The problem lies in making the increased crit rate apply differently for Brutes and Tanks. It's easy for Brutes by saying, add Fury gain. Tanks not so much (well, looking into the future for Tanks at any rate).
I like Arcana's idea, but perhaps with a tweak.
Broadsword Build-Up changed to Beserk. Once activated, each successful attacks adds additional damage (like Blaster attacks do). Once the Beserk effect wears off, the user is tired, and can not gain endurance for a short while and also suffers a -damage penalty.
If the + damage numbers were right Broadsword could do some incredible burst damage in a short period of time. Like Arcane mentioned, 30 seconds. If the down time between recharge were at the appropriate amount as to not allow the effect to be sustained, it would keep Broadsword seperate from Katana, except perhaps at that peak moment of performance where it would pull ahead. The damage pentalty would even this out so that over a period of time, the two sets could perhaps be identical, whereas Katana was sustained damage, Broadsword would wax and wane as it were.
You're going to need to be a bit more specific than that.
But you didn't explain why those things actually make sense. As I said, for example mentioning that you personally think broadsword attacks in the real world make you more vulnerable to more damage which is simulated by resistance debuffs implies that's obvious. I not only think its not obvious, I don't think its even true. |
Going off the animations of just Broadsword, they would imply a more Longsword like technique or use that I was erroneously connecting to "Broadswords" when the definition between the two is (apparently) significant. There's also the likelihood that you really couldn't use the term "******* Sword"* for a verging Super-Hero MMO. In regards to the aspects of Broadsword causing -Res based on Smash-Effects, this is relative, but more on the pretense of War Mace than on Broadsword and really only works on Broadsword if its defined more as a Longsword. In terms of a Longsword coming with a -Res concept, this would have more meaning in relation to the largest use of the weapon from the 12th to the 16th century, in particular the time when armor plating was a major part of warfare. While it wasn't a practice part of codified techniques, using the weapon to bash plating both assisted in damaging the armor as well as using concussive energy to potentially damage the wearer (ala bruising). Repeated strikes in this matter breaking an opponents resistances down and opening to further harm. That could easily be taken as a -Def or -Res if you really argue it.
"Armor Bashing" translates better into the use of Maces or Flanges, though, as this is their intended use: to create a large force of impact to either weaken or hopefully penetrate armor to literally beat their opponent to death. So a "Demoralize" mechanic works more accurately with War Mace than it did with Broadsword, but that does not discourage my belief that Broadsword would be justified with some kind of -Res component. Most specifically in terms with this description:
Bloßfechten (blosz fechten) or "bare fighting" is the technique of fighting without significant protective armour such as plate, mail
The lack of significant torso and limb protection leads to the use of a large amount of cutting and slicing techniques in addition to thrusts. These techniques could be nearly instantly fatal or incapacitating, as a thrust to the skull, heart, or major blood vessel would cause massive trauma. Similarly, strong strikes could cut through skin and bone, effectively amputating limbs. The hands and forearms are a frequent target of some cuts and slices in a defensive or offensive maneuver, serving both to disable an opponent and align the swordsman and his weapon for the next attack.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Backsword
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Broadsword
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Longsword
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mace_(club)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Katana
*Edit: See, it even gets blipped off the forums despite the fact I'm referring to a literal term for a specific weapon.
Also, I thought I should add: I cannot entirely argue that translating real-world physics into the game is not always a capable practice, but is this game, or any other, not trying to in-fact emulate the real world given a certain set of parameters?
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
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I would do something along the lines of a long duration (15s to 30s) max stacks 1 per player bleed effect (~8 dps @ Lvl 50, unresistable, unehanceable) on both AoEs. The unresistable part making it darn useful, especially on +4 Minions, or anything with a T9. Can't kill em, fine, make em bleed. You'd have a new and potentially interesting niche.
Unresistable damage in PvE was at a time an oft requested ability for quite a few ATs. It primarily popped up in the Blaster forum. Unless something has changed, the last word we have on it is that unresisted damage in PvE breaks things to the point where it can't be done.
It appears that I'm in the minority of the posters, but I don't like the idea of -resist or -defense or DoT or a berserk fury that builds or anything else that builds up over time. I think what distinguishes Broad Sword right now, and only barely, is that it had good burst damage. I don't mean good damage AFTER five or ten or fifteen seconds, I mean hit Build Up, hit someone with Head Splitter and Disembowel, and see some huge orange numbers. Replacing Build Up with an effect that actually has to build up over time makes Broad Sword LESS of a burst damage set, not more, even if its damage peaks higher than Katana's before dropping back down again. Now it seems to have NO advantage. Its slowly building build up keeps it from doing as much damage as Katana in short fights, and Katana's superior DPS keeps it ahead in long fights. Perhaps there's some tail end of medium-length fights where Broad Sword might be slightly ahead, but *yawn*, boring. I mean woo, I get to do slightly better damage during the clean up phase of a fight, when the Tanker has already decided everyone is OK and is running to get control of the next group.
If we're going to have a damage effect that changes over time, I'd want it going in the opposite direction, with monstrous damage from the first hit decaying over time. THAT would distinguish it from every other Build Up or Fury effect, and keep the set what it already is - a burst damage, smashy set. Basically, I want it to slap Katana around for ten seconds, and then for Katana's Superior DPS to pull ahead maybe around twenty seconds. For short fights or wiping out a critical target, you want Broad Sword. For long fights, you want Katana.
Now, given that the DPS is already fairly close, for them to pull even at around the 20 second mark doesn't leave much room for a super Build Up effect. I'm even OK with them nerfing attack DPA to give us something exceptional on the burst damage front.
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You're not alone, I'd rather keep BS as a burst damage set.
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Dark/Shield Build Thread
It appears that I'm in the minority of the posters, but I don't like the idea of -resist or -defense or DoT or a berserk fury that builds or anything else that builds up over time. I think what distinguishes Broad Sword right now, and only barely, is that it had good burst damage. I don't mean good damage AFTER five or ten or fifteen seconds, I mean hit Build Up, hit someone with Head Splitter and Disembowel, and see some huge orange numbers. Replacing Build Up with an effect that actually has to build up over time makes Broad Sword LESS of a burst damage set, not more, even if its damage peaks higher than Katana's before dropping back down again. Now it seems to have NO advantage. Its slowly building build up keeps it from doing as much damage as Katana in short fights, and Katana's superior DPS keeps it ahead in long fights. Perhaps there's some tail end of medium-length fights where Broad Sword might be slightly ahead, but *yawn*, boring. I mean woo, I get to do slightly better damage during the clean up phase of a fight, when the Tanker has already decided everyone is OK and is running to get control of the next group.
If we're going to have a damage effect that changes over time, I'd want it going in the opposite direction, with monstrous damage from the first hit decaying over time. THAT would distinguish it from every other Build Up or Fury effect, and keep the set what it already is - a burst damage, smashy set. Basically, I want it to slap Katana around for ten seconds, and then for Katana's Superior DPS to pull ahead maybe around twenty seconds. For short fights or wiping out a critical target, you want Broad Sword. For long fights, you want Katana. Now, given that the DPS is already fairly close, for them to pull even at around the 20 second mark doesn't leave much room for a super Build Up effect. I'm even OK with them nerfing attack DPA to give us something exceptional on the burst damage front. |
Change BS's build up to 30 second duration. Then break up the buffs like this (assuming Scrapper mods):
150% damage; Arcana's Smashing proc for ten seconds;
50% damage; Arcana's Smashing proc for ten seconds;
Arcana's Smashing proc for the remaining ten seconds.
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That makes sense. What if you did something like they did with Peacebringers.
Change BS's build up to 30 second duration. Then break up the buffs like this (assuming Scrapper mods): 150% damage; Arcana's Smashing proc for ten seconds; 50% damage; Arcana's Smashing proc for ten seconds; Arcana's Smashing proc for the remaining ten seconds. |
I'm not entirely opposed, but I'd personally prefer to do more damage more often, just for a shorter period of time, instead of chasing a perma Build Up build. It also probably makes it easier to balance against Katana if they have the same duration and recharge, even if their effects are different.
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In terms of how Broadsword differs from Katana in cinema and comics, Broadsword is a punishing, bone-crunching weapon that leaves grevious wounds, as opposed to Katana (whose victims tend not to realize they have been cleanly bifurcated until right before they fall over).
Hence; a "bleeding" DoT of lethal damage, and a small Chance to Knockdown on most powers.
If I could get away with it, I'd add a small Chance to +Recharge into their Build Up, although I'd really rather swap it out for a 'Berserker' style power that buffs Recharge and Damage and debuffs your own Defense...but that would probably break the Cottage Rule.
Story Arcs I created:
Every Rose: (#17702) Villainous vs Legacy Chain. Forget Arachnos, join the CoT!
Cosplay Madness!: (#3643) Neutral vs Custom Foes. Heroes at a pop culture convention!
Kiss Hello Goodbye: (#156389) Heroic vs Custom Foes. Film Noir/Hardboiled detective adventure!