On Travel Suppression and Heal Decay
By
Antigonus,
Posted on: 2011-10-13 12:12 in Everything about PvP
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People joust less now, as far as I've witnessed. |
Originally Posted by Fiery-Enforcer
Because having a self debuff that doesn't accomplish its purpose is stupid.
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Although, people plain as hell PLAY less now, so maybe that estimate is skewed.
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See my post on page 4...
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Originally Posted by Warkupo
People joust less now, as far as I've witnessed.
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Please ring for whoever we play in our next practice.
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Originally Posted by Giant2005
we aren't going to die ever
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i've explained it twice and it really does seem that you're either ignoring me, ignoring the other people in the thread that have also explained it too you, or you're just hardcore trollin or some combination of the three.|
Originally Posted by Warkupo
What is it about PVP that people automatically assume everyone who doesn't like to play it the way they do is automatically an inferior player? I didn't say I *can't* chase people around with a travel power, or that I don't know how to use a temp power from a vendor (I'm not sure how using web grenade would be hard for anyone, really), I'm merely stating that I don't *like* to do these things. They are not enjoyable for me.
I do appreciate you trying to meet me half-way, but I really want to know *why* it's so important that TS is removed if it doesn't, as is being claimed in this thread, change game-play in any reasonable fashion? If it's simply because you find it more fun, that'd be fine, we could just disagree on what is fun and that'd be the end of it. |
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| Unfortunately, I just can't buy that as the only reason people want TS removed, because that's not the emotion I am reading in this forum. |
Positron's i13 letter: We are trying to make PvP more accessible to new players, while giving experienced PvP'ers the advantage that comes with formulating tactics around the new systems we're putting in place. PvP from now on will be on our priority list. If something isn't working out, we'll be in there tweaking it and making it work, for the entire future of the product, not just Issue 13.
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You say it takes 5 people to kill you, and that is with HD on. You claim that with HD off, nobody could kill you. Want to go in arena and test that theory?|
Originally Posted by Giant2005
we aren't going to die ever.
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Btw, if you want people to take you seriously, I'd recommend you have a clue what youre talking about. Go look at your combat attributes in game and tell me if allt hose statistics are true.....
I'm just curious what your thoughts on this are. Since pains are obviously so difficult to kill according to you, why is WARE.gov putting up 44 kills in a 10 minute match against teams with 2 emps, which have even higher heal mods? (That's a kill every 13 seconds by the way)
Let me sum up this thread:
Bunch of reasonable people explain why both TS and HD are really bad mechanics
A few idiots derail the thread and turn the reasonable people into idiot bashers, thus completely de-railing the purpose of this thread.
IM SO MAD THAT PEOPLE DONT AGREE WITH MY OPINION EVEN THOUGH I AM COMPLETELY RIGHT AND THEY ARE STUPID PEOPLE WHO DONT UNDERSTAND GAME MECHANICS.
Okay, now that that's been covered, please put this thread back on topic.
Thanks,
Critical Katalyst
@TheKatalyst
My **** is bleeding.
The point of this thread is to answer the question: How would you, as a PvP community, feel about the out-right removal of Heal Decay and Travel Suppression.
I argue that the vast majority of the PvP community (that has any understanding of this game) would agree to removing BOTH HD and TS. The people that have argued for the retention of HD and TS have not provided any valid logical reasons to keep these mechanics. They have attempted to justify their emotions on the topic with flawed logic and incomplete arguments. Even so, I would love to hear more VALID arguments for both sides of this issue.
I would also LOVE for the community team, part of whose job it is to represent OUR interests to the development team, to be a part of this discussion.
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Originally Posted by hemmingway3
The point of this thread is to answer the question: How would you, as a PvP community, feel about the out-right removal of Heal Decay and Travel Suppression.
I would also LOVE for the community team, part of whose job it is to represent OUR interests to the development team, to be a part of this discussion. |
neither of which will happen.
Positron's i13 letter: We are trying to make PvP more accessible to new players, while giving experienced PvP'ers the advantage that comes with formulating tactics around the new systems we're putting in place. PvP from now on will be on our priority list. If something isn't working out, we'll be in there tweaking it and making it work, for the entire future of the product, not just Issue 13.
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Originally Posted by hemmingway3
The point of this thread is to answer the question: How would you, as a PvP community, feel about the out-right removal of Heal Decay and Travel Suppression.
I argue that the vast majority of the PvP community (that has any understanding of this game) would agree to removing BOTH HD and TS. The people that have argued for the retention of HD and TS have not provided any valid logical reasons to keep these mechanics. They have attempted to justify their emotions on the topic with flawed logic and incomplete arguments. Even so, I would love to hear more VALID arguments for both sides of this issue. I would also LOVE for the community team, part of whose job it is to represent OUR interests to the development team, to be a part of this discussion. |
Hey I made some pretty valid points on the matter without trying much, but it seems that what the OP really wants is basically everyone to agree that the removal of TS and HD would be great in order to support the claim that the "vast majority" all feel the same... but truth is the vast majority doesn't.
Such a claim would lead one to think that arena is more popular than zones because it does not require TS and HD... that the vast majority of PvPers spend all their time doing KBs and avoid zone due to zone mechanics.... but this is far from the case. Why is that?
Also...as I've pointed out a few times now, we're talking about almost 3 year old mechanics! You're actually requesting people to give "valid logical reasons" to keep them in the game? I believe removal of these mechanics is what needs reason and valid proof... especially since you have the option to PvP without them, and sorry to say but I seriously doubt that basing all reason behind your defintion of "fun" is enough.
"Situational power? Sure. Although in a sense... all powers are situational. It's just that some situations occur more than others." Understand the situation needed in order for the power to be most effective... and make that situation happen.
I stated that I wanted opinions and arguments relevant to the initial question. I stated my argument. You stated your argument as a fact that you cannot know to be true. You also state that no valid reasons for the removal of HD and TS have been made. They have been made in many different ways in this thread alone. You also have trouble forming sentences in the English language, making your arguments even weaker since they don't usually make sense to the reader. You then point out that we are talking about 3 year old mechanics. For 3 years these mechanics have been horrible and they still are. Alongside that, this topic was brought up by Zwillinger. You think it was inappropriate of him to do so?
Before you make posts with so many logical fallacies, how about you learn to read proper English sentences and go back over all the constructive posts in this thread.
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This line stands out to me above all others in this thread.|
Originally Posted by macskull
I don't want to be handed kills by the system, I want to earn them. Likewise, I don't want to die because the system thinks I should, but rather because I've been outsmarted or outplayed.
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I think I finally understand the argument between the pro TS and HD crowd and the anti TS and HC crowd.
It is simply a fundamental difference of mentality, it is the difference of an agressive player and a defensive player.
Currently with TS and HD implemented, you think getting a kill is too easy. I think that with them removed, staying alive would be too easy.
After reading your post, I now understand that no-one is wrong.
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I'm not sure why you're having a hard time understanding what I type. I'm certain however, that this issue lies with you and not me. You seem to dodge my arguement at all costs, and use Zwillinger's question to you and others as an excuse. Did he tell you to make a forum post about it too?|
Originally Posted by hemmingway3
I stated that I wanted opinions and arguments relevant to the initial question. I stated my argument. You stated your argument as a fact that you cannot know to be true. You also state that no valid reasons for the removal of HD and TS have been made. They have been made in many different ways in this thread alone. You also have trouble forming sentences in the English language, making your arguments even weaker since they don't usually make sense to the reader. You then point out that we are talking about 3 year old mechanics. For 3 years these mechanics have been horrible and they still are. Alongside that, this topic was brought up by Zwillinger. You think it was inappropriate of him to do so?
Before you make posts with so many logical fallacies, how about you learn to read proper English sentences and go back over all the constructive posts in this thread. |
The mechanics have been horrible to you for three years... not me. I'm quite content tyvm. Trying to prove why you should be enjoying them as I do is as silly as you trying to prove why I shoudn't be. It is you claiming that your argument is factual when such is not the case. Every single claim and reason given for the removal of TS and HD so far in this thread have been simple opinions based of a person's definition of fun basically, and the closest argument to the contrary are those that point out the obvious fact that so many left and quit PvPing after I13.
This topic is old. It's very old. It was not brought up by Zwillinger. You happen to be in a conversation where he he asked a hypothetical question on the matter, and you should calm down about it really.
"Situational power? Sure. Although in a sense... all powers are situational. It's just that some situations occur more than others." Understand the situation needed in order for the power to be most effective... and make that situation happen.
You just lied several times.
In just staying on topic, and not replying to anyones comments, because it always turns into a pissing match.
Always here, certain folks don't agree, and ends up making the whole PvP community, past and present, look bad because it gets off topic.
My answer to the question is yes, i am whole heartedly in favor of TS, and HD being removed completly, but.. that would just be a start in the right direction.
I'm not exactly a PVPer. I've poked my nose into PVP zones a few times (and usually gotten myself thoroughly trounced!), but still, I hate travel suppression and diminishing returns.
As a PVEer poking my nose into a PVP zone, I hate the fact that powers work differently. My mez protection doesn't work. My perma dom isn't. If I feel overwhelmed, I can't (or at least it's harder to) run away. Sure I could learn to deal with these things and build accordingly, but without the emotional investment in PVP to begin with that isn't going to happen. I'm not I'm not the only PVEer-occasionally-interested-in-PVP who feels this way.
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The reason for the rage is because the devs have an inferiority complex against experienced PVPers, and often listen to the clueless players instead when soliciting feedback. (Hence the I13 changes - an attempt to stop "runners", "pocket emps" and "fotm builds" - these are all things that the devs no doubt think are exploits / run counter to the "spirit of the game".)|
Originally Posted by _Velociteh_
Let me sum up this thread:
Bunch of reasonable people explain why both TS and HD are really bad mechanics A few idiots derail the thread and turn the reasonable people into idiot bashers, thus completely de-railing the purpose of this thread. IM SO MAD THAT PEOPLE DONT AGREE WITH MY OPINION EVEN THOUGH I AM COMPLETELY RIGHT AND THEY ARE STUPID PEOPLE WHO DONT UNDERSTAND GAME MECHANICS. Okay, now that that's been covered, please put this thread back on topic. Thanks, Critical Katalyst |
Any feedback that is of the "please remove HD/TS because it makes PVP boring" variety is lumped into the "1337 PVPer" category and is summarily ignored by the devs. After all, to the devs, we just want HD/TS off so that we're better in PVP. It has nothing to do with wanting the game to be better, we're just dirty PVP exploiters. We just want to farm casual players to feel good about ourselves.
Right? Right?
If we want change. I suggest writing posts from a newbie perspective complaining about how PVP makes it harder to chase runners because of TS and harder to stay alive verses 1337 spikers due to heal decay. This is the sort of bottom-up feedback that the devs listen to. (Although I can envision this feedback just causing them to nerf more ****.)
Regardless; When it comes to PVP, the devs will always cater to the clueless whiners that don't know how to play the system. This is because the devs themselves fall into this category. Thus any feedback has to come from the perspective of clueless whiners in order for the dev team to understand it.
Giving feedback from a position of PVP experience, suggesting ways to improve the system to make the game better for everyone, and referencing how the system ACTUALLY works, with numbers and examples to prove it...?
...forget it. Developer ego / inferiority complex will get in the way. No game designer likes accepting that the players know better. In this case we absolutely do.
I would welcome any member of the development team to prove me wrong. (An open statement. In general. And not calling out the devs.)
How to fix PVP?
Have Zwillinger practice with WARE.gov. Let them educate him. (In exchange for Glad Javs.) Hopefully some of that will trickle back to the dev team.
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Logic dictates those who know how to play the system are those that are happy with the system. If they didn't know how to play it, they would be screaming for changes to make it better suit what they are capable of. Kind of like this thread...
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Originally Posted by Xanatos
Regardless; When it comes to PVP, the devs will always cater to the clueless whiners that don't know how to play the system. This is because the devs themselves fall into this category. Thus any feedback has to come from the perspective of clueless whiners in order for the dev team to understand it.
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Please elaborate on this.
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Originally Posted by Giant2005
Logic dictates those who know how to play the system are those that are happy with the system.
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If the devs ever actually got serious about fixing stuff in PvP, thatd be a great idea. If they spent an hour or two talking to Silit and Vinnie on a vent server or something, I think they could get a lot of really great information about what is good in the current system, what's bad, and the same for pre i13.|
Originally Posted by Xanatos
How to fix PVP?
Have Zwillinger practice with WARE.gov. Let them educate him. (In exchange for Glad Javs.) Hopefully some of that will trickle back to the dev team. |
At this point though, it's pretty well documented what needs to be changed. I don't think a lack of information is what's keeping the developers from making changes to PvP. I would be extremely surprised if they did anything major before all the incarnate stuff is finished. Hopefully when the incarnate stuff is all out, if they dont have any other major plans, they'll revisit PvP.
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Originally Posted by Giant2005
Logic dictates those who know how to play the system are those that are happy with the system. If they didn't know how to play it, they would be screaming for changes to make it better suit what they are capable of. Kind of like this thread...
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This needs to be in a signature.
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By the way, if you think that you think that people who want TS and HD removed, please show us. If this is the case, it sounds like you, Warkupo, and Dahjee would easily be able to handle a 3v3 against members of WARE.gov !!
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Originally Posted by Giant2005
Logic dictates those who know how to play the system are those that are happy with the system. If they didn't know how to play it, they would be screaming for changes to make it better suit what they are capable of. Kind of like this thread...
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What I mean to say is that there are two reasons someone could want change:|
Originally Posted by Xanatos
Please elaborate on this.
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1) People can't play the system and make the rules don't work in their favour and they get destroyed.
2) People can play the system and make the rules work in their favour and they do the destroying but seek a greater challenge.
Logically, those in group num1 one have to out-number those in group two. If everyone were working the system efficiently, then we would all already be challenged.
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I'm not sure what you are trying to say with that first sentence exactly so I cannot respond to it. It simply isn't good english.|
Originally Posted by DaveMebs
By the way, if you think that you think that people who want TS and HD removed, please show us. If this is the case, it sounds like you, Warkupo, and Dahjee would easily be able to handle a 3v3 against members of WARE.gov !!
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The second part is more important.
The main deterrent to participating in pvp from the pve community is the "Epeen" factor. They know nothing of the mechanics and know not what to hate, all they know is they want nothing to do with the "Epeen" factor that you seem to have mastered. This isn't the first time you have chosen to turn this thread into your own personal challenge finder.
This thread is intended to discuss the pros and cons of TS and HD intelligently. Instead of choosing to treat this thread with the intelligence and respect it deserves, you have chosen the path of aggression.
People that choose that path are exactly the reason a majority of the playerbase refuse to give pvp a genuine try.
Please keep your epeen out of this thread, you make us all look bad and perpetuate the biggest deterrent from pvp that this game has.
Be respectful.
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