On Travel Suppression and Heal Decay

All TS does is enforce the mob mentality, you have enough people damage spamming the same target, they will go down because you are all moving at the same speed. Actual co-ordination or organization is non-existant in most zone PvP groups. Organized arena groups come into RV all the time and wipe the zone base to base in minutes because they actually understand the concept behind exploiting TS to it's fullest, and also are just generally better than most strictly zone PvPers.

These are the same people that want the system abolished, not neccesarily the zone PvPers. Also, it's a little frustrating in a situation where normally a good player would be able to evade out of harms way but under the restrictions of TS can't because they are slowed for both defending themselves as well as getting attacked or debuffed. Evading under TS is extremely counter intuitive, and really throws any skill out the window.

Heal Decay is just frustrating for any type of healer to play with. I'm sorry, but if you're in a zone and you are QQing about someone not dieing because of their healer, attack their healer. Force them to AP or something and then kill the healer. There's lots of easy solutions to beat strong support in zone without HD. With HD, a spot on a team that might be good for a support toon is often better fit for another mindless damage spamming Blaster instead. HD greatly diminishes a Healer's ability to make a real difference in zone.

The people you are arguing with are some of the best PvPers left in this game. Both the best PvPers and the worst PvPers and all inbetween generally dislike Heal Decay and TS. The argument for why TS and HD are bad mechanics is pretty solid, it's logical, and comes from actual experience from both the pre-i13, post i13, and post i13 minus HD/TS systems, arena and zone alike. The people who dislike TS and HD rarely have any real valid or logical argument.

Like I keep saying, the majority of the outcry to remove these 2 FRUSTRATING mechanics is because they are FRUSTRATING to play with and reduce the FUN for a lot of people that are forced to play with them in zone PvP. There is a component of skill and lack thereof contributing to both sides of the argument. However, the bottom line is that it makes PvPing LESS ENJOYABLE for most people. I play video games to have fun, the competition is just an extra bonus.

Also, on the subject of why PvE'ers don't PvP: It has nothing to do with the elitist attitudes of certain PvPers. That's a copout excuse, all games with PvP have cocky PvPers who think they are better than everyone else. The reason is that in order to PvP you have to relearn how you play the game if you have only PvE'd in this game, and also the way you build toons for PvE vs. PvP is radically different. It's always kind of been this way, but the PvP/PvE portions of this game are entirely seperate, both by community and game mechanics. Most PvE'ers bring their pimped out PvE build into a PvP zone thinking "This build wrecks face in PvE, should do decent in PvP" only to find that their awesome PvE toon is useless in PvP, and promptly give up, rightly so.

Believe it or not, there were a lot of really good PvPers back before i13 who could bring PvE builds into a duel or zone and destroy less skilled players. It just doesn't happen anymore post i13, no matter how good or bad the player is.

You can't blame the player base for the mistakes of bad developing that has never been corrected.

I'm really tired of people making excuses for poor skill and that being a justification of bad developing and terrible game mechanics. The developers know that TS/HD are the least liked mechanic in the current PvP system, by a large majority of PvPers, it should have been removed a long time ago, and it should still be removed if it is being planned.

Bad players are bad, and always will be, but i13 gives bad players the ability to compete with the best. Why should anyone be rewarded for being bad far more than those who take the time to actually become good?

/rant

He only got aggressive because your theory that you strongly believe in apparently of why people want TS/HD removed is incredibly wrong and makes no real logical sense.

I said it in my above post, and I'll say it again; People shying away from PvP has very little to do with elitist PvPer attitudes. It's a copout excuse, all games with PvP have just as much elitist attitudes both within the PvP/Competitive community and PvE community alike. I've never played a game that didn't have these people, nor ever played a game where this group of people was small.

PvPers being a group of trolls, ********, and elitists is extremely exaggerated. People don't like this game's PvP because it forces you to COMPLETELY relearn the game in order to participate in it. This game's PvP is not only counter-intuitive in many ways, it requires you to play very different from how you would play in the rest of this game's content. Obviously, there's no way to create complete parody between PvE and PvP of any game, but this game, especially after i13, has the biggest seperation of PvE vs. PvP builds, skillsets, and community of almost any game I have ever played. The seperation of community is largely a product of the first 2 things I mentioned as well as the developers complete dismissal of any issue related to PvP.

I think he had a right to be aggressive with you because it seems like you are speaking about a subject you don't know much about but are acting like you have any right to be an authority on.

Also yes, I double posted, do something about it.

This I'll comment on, in my experience (and really my experience could be an abberation and far from the norm but that isn't likely) the opposite of what you said is true.
I love pvp and my background is more dominated by other purely pvp games, with that said, I have spent a considerable amount of time trying to get my friends in this game to join me in pvp. I won't deny that some cite i13 as their reason for refusing to join me but the significant majority of my friends have never tried pvp and refuse to ever give it an attempt. The latter group all state the same reaosn "The Epeen factor" (well actually they don't refer to it quite like that, they usually refer to those who have mastered the art of epeen with terms the rules won't allow me to repeat).

As to the rest of the post, I am having trouble commenting because my own "epeen" factor is getting involved and I don't want to be a hipocrit. I will say this, in those other games that are purely pvp focused that I am more experienced with, they quickly discovered that unlimited healing + mobility destroys balance.
If you want HD or TS removed, pick one to champion. Removing both makes survival far too easy.

When you begin any sentence with "I think he had a right to be aggressive" you immediately become wrong.
About the latter half, I don't know you. So I have to assume you don't know me, so don't make assumptions about what I do or don't know and I most certainly don't pretend to be an authority on anything. After re-reading the thread, I seem to be the only person to have made any considerations to the opinion of the opposing argument.

The conclusion I came to on the last page:

Is the only of it's kind in this thread. Everyone else seems to be stuck on the "I am right, you are wrong" sentiment. Strictly speaking, it all comes down to personal preference. How can anyone's preference be wrong? I am amazed how people think they have the right to tell others otherwise.

PvP is, by it's very nature, aggressive. People do not avoid PvP because of aggresive players. They avoid PvP because they do not like aggression in general. Do not confuse causality with commonality.

You think that because someone understands something, they are happy with it. I understand this game quite well, and I am not happy with it. I do not seek to change it to better my fortune when it comes to fighting others. Similarly, American politicians understand the American political system, but many of them hate it. Just because one is willing to do what it takes to succeed does not mean they like doing such things.

The people in this thread that have argued for the removal of HD and TS are generally those that understand the system best and are the most capable of abusing it. That sentence alone is a contradiction to your hypothesis.

It's not about challenge though. As that's not the chief motivator of either of the groups you mentioned. The motivation here is for the improvement of the system itself, rather than personal performance within said system.

You also forgot group 3 - people who can't work the system, think they can work the system, and are completely happy with how things are. (Dahjee, etc.)

Your two posts also slightly contradict each other but that's not overly important. It does suggest that you're not familiar enough with the different demographics that PVP though.

You'd be surprised at how much stuff gets lost in the shuffle at Paragon Studios. I remember lobbying for PVP changes about a year and a half ago by asking a bunch of PVPers to spam bug threads & a Q&A session on formspring with lists of powers bugged in PVP.

It surprisingly worked...to an extent. One of the QA team got in touch and I passed on a list of PVP bugs. Some of the bugs got changed. (Fiery Embrace, etc. Nothing major sadly.) Most didn't.

All of the bugs I told them about had been active in the game for a while, had been documented, and had been written about on the forums. The dev team simply aren't watching this place, and aren't listening to PVPers. Issue 13 BETA suggested it, and the way they've behaved since has absolutely proved it.

Unlimited healing and mobility didn't destroy any balance when it was implemented in this game for the three years after PvP was introduced, and it still doesn't destroy any balance when the options are enabled in arena matches. The major "imbalance" with pre-I13 PvP was that people refused to team in a class-based and team-based MMO, then complained that a team of a few people would always roll them. Now PvP just comes down to who can spam damage, and that's one-dimensional and boring.

It's certainly frustrating to get your target down to a few percent of their HP left only to have them get away, but that's far less frustrating than basically having to walk away from your computer because your character's being attacked and you have no way of stopping your own death. Given the choice between the two, I think most reasonable people would take the first option.

Here's an interesting observation: the complaints from people experienced with the PvP system tend to revolve around mechanics rather than individual powers or powersets (unless those powers are actually bugged), while complaints from those who do not understand, or are not good at, the PvP system tend to revolve around adjustments to individual powers or powersets (nerf this, nerf that). This was true before the I13 changes and it's still true now.

@macskull, @Not Mac | XBL: macskull | Steam: macskull | Skype: macskull
"One day we all may see each other elsewhere. In Tyria, in Azeroth. We may pass each other and never know it. And that's sad. But if nothing else, we'll still have Rhode Island."

My preference is to educate ignorant people. HOW CAN YOU TELL ME THAT I SHOULDNT HELP EDUCATE PEOPLE????? I AM AMAZED THAT PEOPLE THINK THEY HAVE THE RIGHT TO TELL OTHERS OTHERWISE.

And somehow you still have 2000% regen and 75% resists? Those numbers are absurd.

Your group of friends is a pretty small sample, and is probably a pretty flawed sample to base any facts of the PvP system off of.

Before i13 there was no HD/TS and skilled players managed to get plenty of kills, even though in i13 there was suppression for attacking other players. In arena after i13, with HD/TS disabled, there's literally zero suppression for both attackers and evaders, and there's teams that can rack up 30+ kills on worse teams in 10 minutes. Even when the top contenders in PvP Leagues face off, you get matches where both teams trade kills up to 10-15 kills for both teams. If you think removing HD/TS makes killing people hard, than you obviously have no experience playing with it off.

You are claiming that your opinion has validity because you have played other games. This game's PvP is very, very different from the status quo PvP MMO, it's pretty insane to think that this game's PvP mechanics should be anything like other game's PvP mechanics, and thinking that also points to inexperience with the current PvP system.

You are welcome to your opinion, I just think that your conclusions are based in flawed logic, and a lack of understanding for the PvP system in this game and it's history, and the reasons why it's so bad now.

People are continuously telling you why your opinion is wrong, has no factual base, and even have offered to prove it to you in-game, yet you stand by it. You would make a good politician.

Not sure why I'm even going to bother responding to this, but your arguments are completely flawed.

You say the vast majority are against this change because more people play in zones. Flawed logic! Do I really have to tell you why? Of course I do. Zone PvP is not the same as arena PvP. Zone PvP is a lot easier to get into because all you litterally have to do is go into any PvP zone to start PvP'ing. Most casual players don't want to setup an arena match and find people for it, it'll most likely be unbalanced even though zones are like that 100% of the time. Arena is more competitive based where people usually setup duels or matches with even teams. Not everyone likes that kind of PvP, however you must be a fool if you think that has anything to do with the actual game mechanics.

You also say it shouldn't be changed because it's already been in place for so long. That's a terrible reason and makes no logical sense. Bad mechanics are bad no longer how long they've been around. It's not like the devs have changed things that have been in the game for years. Oh wait they have, on multiple occassions. What do you think that whole i13 thing was that got us here in the first place was? With your logic, PvP shouldn't have been changed because it was around for so long before that. But we all know that you're fully supportive of this system without ever saying why.

@macskull, @Not Mac | XBL: macskull | Steam: macskull | Skype: macskull
"One day we all may see each other elsewhere. In Tyria, in Azeroth. We may pass each other and never know it. And that's sad. But if nothing else, we'll still have Rhode Island."

My argument is not flawed. Your reading comprehension is lacking is all.

First of all I did not make an argument stating that a majority of PvPers are against the removal of TS and HD. This alone makes the rest of that paragraph dumb sorry to say. Read my post carfully and you'll find that my point was that it is difficult to prove that the vast majority are for the change simply becasue the vast majority do not play with those settings.

Second of all I did not state that HD and TS should not be changed because they've been in place for so long. Again you are simply failing to comprehend. My point here was that these mechanics are old enough that the only side that really has to provde valid, sound, and logical reason is the side that wants it to be removed. Unfortunately, opinions based on personal preferences don't provde this.

Lastly, I could care less if the system changed. It was changed before by a bunch of whiners, and if change occurs again... it will be for the same reason and very likely lead to the same result. I'll be enjoying myself regardless simply because I do not depend on a ruleset to enjoy PvP. I understand these mechanics as well as anyone here and made my peace with them about 2 weeks after I13 was released.

This thread is about the specific mechanics of HD and TS, and as you know we have a choice to either Zone with then in place or go to Arena and turn them off. Many people in this very thread prefer to PvP without those settings and have a better PvP experience by doing Arena with HD/TS turned off... but you want me to think that most players aren't capable of choosing to do the same? If this is what you're saying then it actually places everyone who does prefer "no HD/TS Arena" over Zone PvP into an even smaller group...making it even harder for any of them to represent the wants of the entire community.


There are indeed a few trolls in this thread. I'm not one of them though so try harder peeps.

Valid, sound, and logical reasons have been provided for the past several years to support the removal of TS and HD. They were provided in i13 beta, after i13 release, and every time after that when someone saw fit to discuss the topic. That includes this thread. Further, in order to fully answer the question posed by Zwillinger, reasons why TS and HD should not be removed do have to be provided. If they are not provided but do exist, the community's interests may not be fully represented by the Community team. If they are not provided because they do not exist, then the only issue is that the Devs haven't removed those mechanics yet. It doesn't matter if opinions and personal preferences provide logical proof because arguments have been made based upon fact and sound reasoning already.

Savvy?

I made a couple points earlier in this thread against the removal of both of these. I stated that HD and TS can be removed from Arena too. Something that should be considered is that Arena and Zone shouldn't have the same rules and effects. It is a warzone, as opposed to a controlled map with controlled teams. Zone is unpredictable and merciless. It embraces both solo players as well as teams. Even with TS spike targets can escape. TS is required for such a huge area of play to lessen the effectiveness of hit and run. It forces you to stay in an engagement. When someone puts some distance between you and them in zone, they are gone. TS gives you a chance to retaliate. If TS supports coordinated teams that's great, but it also supports the solo player.

Another thing I want to bring up is I don't think removing these 2 features will balance everything out. Things like DR and mezzes would need an adjustment as well. A straightout removal would only complicate things. There needs to be a more wholesome solution.

I'm not sure exactly how many people have posted against TS and HD here on this thread, but I would suspect if you asked about it in RV on Freedom people wouldn't be so inclined for their removal. They have adjusted to it, with their builds and tactics. I've been playing since I11, I have adjusted easily to every change made.

Zone is generally very predictible given the way TS and HD play out. Go to RV on Freedom any night of the weak and the majority of the time you will see one side base camping the other. The reason for this is because the current system favors raw damage output and zerging.

All TS and HD favor is mindless damage spam. Solo players are actually at a severe disadvantage under TS and HD, because if enough people are pew pewing you with ranged attacks you will be perma TS'd until you die or phase. It dumbs down tactics in zone PvP, RV always had basecamping, but TS and HD makes it very hard for anything to prevail over greater numbers. Under the old system without them, an organized core group of players could easily take on a much larger group of mindless zergers.

There's no reason that mindless damage spam should be rewarded more than actual skill or more organized tactics.

Also, as stated above, zone is fairly predictable. You are typically base camping or being base camped, and it only shifts when one side gets greater numbers than the other side because the current system greatly favors what most know as "zerging" as Slan stated above. Also, I can go to RV at almost any time of the day and assume Heroes are being basecamped and am usually right. That seems to be fairly predictable to me.

Hi again OP.

You should accept the fact that just because you agree with something a poster types does not mean it is a valid, sound, and logical explanation. Based on your statements... you seem to be quite incapable of recognizing when a person is stating a pesonal preference.

What makes matters worse... is that the question posed by Zwilliger as you put is specifically asking for a personal preference. He did ask how it would make us feel right? Have you answered your own OP? Have you instead skipped the answer and used your personal preference to campaign to others to feel the same as you??

Also, the other point you're trying to make wasn't supposed to be that debatable... If the devs obviously and currently plan on keeping things as they are and have been, there isn't much reason for players to ask them to keep it that way is there?

I believe a more correct way to put this is that the players under the current system favor raw damage output and zerging. A big difference when you take the time to think about it.

Not if youre WARE.gov

I'm guessing you've never been tagged with Snow Storm or Rad toggles, ever.

EDIT: It seems worthwhile to point out that every single time I duel a melee with TS and HD off and win, they want a rematch with "their" rules (read: TS and HD on), and I end up winning the rematch by more than I won the original match.

@macskull, @Not Mac | XBL: macskull | Steam: macskull | Skype: macskull
"One day we all may see each other elsewhere. In Tyria, in Azeroth. We may pass each other and never know it. And that's sad. But if nothing else, we'll still have Rhode Island."