The Katalyst
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Posts
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Joined
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I've assumed this was the case for quite a while. It was basically a business decision. The amount of resources that would have been required to make any significant improvement to PvP would not have been lucrative. I think that's understandable. I never liked it, but it is what it is. I don't blame them for making that decision; CoH quite clearly thrived much better as a PvE-focused game.
I'm sure they didn't really like it either, if we're being totally honest. Being unable to improve your product the way you want because you lack resources is frustrating, but that's the way it goes, although I'm sure that frustration pales in comparison to your game being shut down for similar reasons.
One thing is for sure: NCSoft is a terrible publisher. If a game doesn't sustain 500k+ subs, they think it's a failure. Tabula Rasa is another great example of this same dilemma. It wasn't a dead game by any stretch of the imagination, but it had limited appeal. NCSoft shut it down.
I almost feel dirty for buying GW2 now, but I'm pretty sure ArenaNet is afforded more independence at this point then most other NCSoft subsidiaries. At least that's what I tell myself to justify it. :/ -
Quote:Artic finally coming out of the closet.Originally Posted by Artic_Chill_44
With Love-
Teh Artic -
Also, you definitely need to clean up the rules if you can Evo. It looks like some of that stuff is outdated/changed as well. Figure out a cleaner way to format things.
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Quote:As much as I wish it weren't true, I have to agree with you. While a rule against account sharing sounds good in practice, it's difficult to police. I'm not a fan of forcing people to give out their vent/mumble info for stuff like that, and that is the only way to effectively police it to any degree. It might work, but it's an obnoxious thing to HAVE to do in order to remain qualified.Originally Posted by Newland
How is this a factor to wether or not the rule should be lifted? No one cares if you're not giving your account info to people. Its a fact that many rosters will be account sharing and its pretty stupid to say you can't have more than one global active in a match if its people on your roster playing it. It makes no sense and its annoying for my team especially when we each have more than one account listed and will be needing to use some at the same time.
I mean, you can keep it in there if you want, but I don't think it's going to make a difference. I had it in my league, and I don't think we ever actually worried about it to be completely honest. There were times where we knew it was happening, but didn't bother to mess with it regardless. Too much of a hassle. Personally, it doesn't bother me. I just want to play with my team, that's really all I care about. What everybody else does within their own ranks is their business.
Sorry, I'm not trying to run the show or anything like that, just trying to add my opinion where it may be relevant. -
I noticed you said 12 week league based on 6 teams. I just want to point out that long, drawn out leagues tend to be a bad experience. People get burnt out and the experience gets soured. 12 weeks is a long time to be committed to something like this.
I would try to limit it to 6 weeks or something around there. If this means we need to do multiple matches a weekend or something, then you can figure it out once schedules are more well known (and an expanded roster cap would probably help people be more flexible for this specifically).
But yeah, a slightly bigger roster cap is probably a good idea, I just mostly wanted to point out that little detail. Long leagues tend to be bad just because of the natural tendency for people to get bored or burnt out, or otherwise lose interest. Also gives a much larger window of time for various RL issues to become a problem. That is all fairly obvious of course, but in any event. Try and keep them as short as possible. -
Quote:It's a nice thought.Originally Posted by Pareto
Where is this being held anyway? Test?
Hahahaha, jk. -
Quote:You're welcome.Originally Posted by Heater
thank god
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Quote:QFT.Originally Posted by Psyrene
Grav/TA...so much fun to just be soooooo annoying.
/10char -
Quote:I would imagine a 5v5 league would have lower kill counts to begin with (assuming comparison to 8v8, since we haven't done 5v5s post-incarnates) so having people die faster then usual isn't neccesarily a bad thing. I guess what I'm saying is that people like big numbers. If matches are averaging 10-20 kills per team instead of 5-10, they might feel a bit more exciting (I made those numbers up, but you get the point).Originally Posted by PiP3R
Yea Frozen Viper and I were talking the other night about a team captain vote. I understand the points made, which are good points, but still have strong feelings countering those points.
For example. There's the argument that to many incans will generate heals almost impossible to break through. But on the other had to much interface and judgement will bring to much dmg to the table. So I guess the way I saw it was don't they sorta balance each other out on a larger scale? I mean, yes everything would be more extreme, but it would be in both directions. And since there hasn't been a league with anything other than alpha only, we thought it would be a new fun thing to try.
Having said that, if a vote for alpha only brings more participation, then, in the spirit of having a bigger league and making everyone more happy, I wouldn't be opposed to that!!
So we DO have an open mind about how things should go, buts lets discuss a little more and get a few more opinions to weigh in =)
@PiP3R
Conversely, if nobody is dieing (as would definitely be the case with destiny) the matches would probably be pretty boring.
I guess that's mostly just my opinion based on past experience, but I definitely feel like most people would get frustrated and bored with everybody being *that* survivable.
Again, ideally I would definitely advise Alpha only, but interface/judgement would be another decent option. I think out of all the incarnates, they have the most potential to shake up the dynamic a bit in a good way, while I think Hybrid/Lore/Destiny would just make the matches more frustrating and less fun, as well as just straight up breaking the game essentially.
Of course, if you just go the route of captains deciding on rules every match, the problem would probably take care of itself, and this whole discussion kind of becomes moot, as I'm willing to bet most teams would stick with Alpha only given the choice. -
I guarantee you limiting incarnate powers to Alpha would increase your attendance. I don't see anybody coming back for this league with almost all of them allowed (as in, people who have quit but might consider it otherwise).
Barring that, I think the next best thing would be to only allow Alpha/Judgement/Interface. Judgement and Interface wouldn't break the game the same way Destiny and Lore would, and it would probably reduce the TTK on average. That means the matches would be much higher scoring on average, which isn't a bad thing imo. 5v5s are probably going to be lower scoring then 8v8s. Inflating the kill counts might make them a bit more exciting.
Also no, this isn't me saying I would join if this were the case. Just my personal opinion. -
Quote:I'm speaking more in terms of the present then the past. There have always been those willing to go the extra mile to try and get things done, but that type of player is not that common in CoH anymore.Originally Posted by vindizzLe
I'm not sure I can agree with this. Events were being run across servers regularly after the arena hit in i4. PvP has existed for a majority of this game's lifespan, test server was active for years, even after i13 changed up the rules for how we PvPed.
A lot of players have fretted on the forums, argued and complained, but we've also put a lot of work into analyzing many of the problems that we were having in order to fix them.
Do you not remember the constant posts we were making concerning arena crashes per Ex Libris' request so that we could alleviate that problem? What about the PvP leagues held on Infinity, Champion and Freedom? Lethal Lotteries? Lethal Lottery 2v2s? Iron Man Tourneys?
Maybe you don't remember that stuff, but I certainly do. If that isn't the playerbase getting active and making the most of a system that honestly feels like it was cast aside from the get-go, I don't know what is.
Not that I blame people for giving up. It's been fairly clear for a long time that nothing is likely to change. Giving up is the rational/logical thing to do at this point, and it has been for a long time.
Also, I think the things you are talking about were far more common pre-i13. The interest level in PvP obviously went down after i13. The flaws in the system are a fault of the developers, I'm not disputing that.
What I was talking about more then anything were the types of people who sit around in RV/AC all day and QQ about how bad CoH PvP is (it is, but that's not the point) but are unwilling to get in on casual arena events and that type of thing. CoH PvP can be fun to some degree, but you have to be willing to do more then base-sit in RV all day.
In any event, it's a moot point. I'm just rambling now. You either accept the game is what it is at this point, and try and make the best out of it, or quit. -
There were some leaks recently (People linking unimplemented powers in beta, basically). It looks like they are adding quite a few new powersets at some point in the near future.
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How are you determining maps? Will it just be random, or will you decide somehow which team will pick? Also, will any maps not be allowed (IE, Eden/Industrial)?
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Quote:It's a stupid rule, nobody follows it anyways. Just like speed limits.Originally Posted by Wolf_Reign
When the amount of hoes surpasses the amount of bro's, you kind of forget that rule.
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Quote:Bros before hoes dawg.Originally Posted by Wolf_Reign
unfortunately I need to drop out due to a pool party a friend is forcing me to go to.
I somehow cannot ever say no to her. It's almost dumb.
So, nobody will have a peacebringer on their team and that should make some people feel good. -
Eh, go ahead and sign me up. You know who I am.
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Quote:The dev team is certainly responsible for a lot of things wrong with PvP, but players simply unwilling to go the extra mile to make the most out of the game is not one of them. For as much ******** as PvPers tend to do, very few of them are willing to actually do anything besides derp around Freedom RV all day.Originally Posted by MrLiberty
The logic has been applied many times in the past as to "Why don't we just go to test to PvP" the last 4 ish leagues that have been run you had a small portion of the population who has used test before saying "Hey guys, lets go there, equal builds for everyone, cross server pvp, no need for transfers" Yet every time you see dozens of posts "I don't want too" with no real reason.
The last real attempt at a test league fielded 2 and a half teams/rosters, I say half because while 2 or 3 others attempted none ever really followed through. Yet the last few freedom leagues usually had upwards of 5 or 6 teams in them at the start.
I've seen people in the bast blame the development team for not wanting to pvp there, which they have a small case for (The dev team also has a case for using test to test stuff). Now though? We have test and beta. -
Quote:Well yeah, that goes without saying. pre13 was obviously more fun for a lot of people then post, but it certainly had plenty of balance issues and crappy mechanics. The 600 damage blaze is a good example of that.Originally Posted by SoulTouch
I agree under current circumstances reverting to i12 PvP would be daft, but the least LEAST they can do, thats going to take very little of their time is remove TS from zones. (And HD)
You say pre i13 PvP had plenty of issues but it was still a much much more fun version of what we have now.
I cannot believe people are crying about proc'd out flares... has no comparison to prei13 600dmg Blaze.
One thing I think people forget too is that there were plenty of PvPers back then supporting some major changes to PvP, but obviously that didn't turn out so hot. PvP was already on the down-trend back then, i13 just put a pre-mature nail in that coffin. They would have had to do something eventually, unfortunately their answer was not a good one. -
Quote:For one thing, unless you are a PvPer yourself it's unlikely you would be able to fully understand the reasons why a global change to the way procs work would affect PvP.Originally Posted by Thirty-Seven
Ummm, okay. So you must be saying that if all Procs are decreased in Damage... somehow individuals using them will somehow still not be equal?
My point was that if all of them decrease in effectiveness, it won't matter since no -one- PvPer will be at a disadvantage. You didn't seem to speak to that.
The obvious problem is most savvy PvPers build their damage at least partially around procs. If that was changed, PvP builds would also need to change significantly across the board. Just because a sweeping change makes everything "equal" (or attempts to) does not make it a good change. For example, i13.
Trust me, a change to the way procs work WOULD have a major impact on PvP. I'm not upset nor worried about the changes, as I really don't care about this game anymore, but that is there. -
Quote:Well, that's exactly what a test server is supposed to be for, so I can understand that to some degree. Testing on a test server is always going to take priority over actually "playing" the game.Originally Posted by Supermax
Just one - it has to do with PvP
But seriously, if you remember, pretty much all PvP used to be done in the test server. But the devs never supported it. They knew about it. In fact, they knew that it was known as pretty much the "official PvP server" among the community. But they refused to support it as such. In fact, on many occasions, they specifically released changes that took the server down on the exact same night as important PvP matches were scheduled (which they knew about).
I think they simply don't want people to PLAY on the test server. They want all playing to be done on live. So they will never support the idea of the test server being THE place to play. To them, it's purely for testing and finding bugs, nothing else.
I disagree that just reverting to pre-i13 mechanics is the answer, if they even ever get around to an answer at all (which is unlikely). Too many things have changed since then, for example, incarnates. Un-DR'd incarnates would be a nightmare for PvP balance. There are more examples, but it's not enough to retcon the entire system at this point.
That is of course, likely a hypothetical argument, which I have raised many times. Chances are it doesn't matter either way since nothing will be done either way, but that's how I feel about "just revert to i12." Lest we forget pre 13 PvP had plenty of issues as well. -
Quote:Procs work a bit differently in PvP then they do in PvE.Originally Posted by Thirty-Seven
I don't PvP, so maybe I am missing something... but if its a global Nerf... won't everyone be on the same footing still, since it will hit everyone?
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Quote:If nothing else, I appreciate the straight-forwardness of the post. I mean, I think anybody with half a brain SHOULD be able to identify the reasons you stated just based on the circumstances, but you are probably one of the few devs/mods/community staff that I've seen say it so straightforward, and I will give you props just for that.Originally Posted by Zwillinger
It wasn't restricted to PVP, but rather to all questions.
We didn't really have a Q&A session as that was not the focus of the Player Summit. We instead focused on 2 workshops (design a power set, design a costume set) and a make your case workshop (zone revamp). The only Q&A sessions revolved around Lore and Story and the Paragon Market.
In short, PVP wasn't singled out. We didn't take questions about Powersets, AE, Bases, crafting, etc...It wasn't a topic open for discussion.
Will it be at further Summits? Who knows...it's possible.
We all know that PVP is not a priority for the development team. I've never blown smoke regarding that fact and will always be very up front with it. There's a multitude of reasons, but if I have to point at two:- Once we start opening the Pandora's Box of PVP we cannot close it. PVP is a constant battle requiring constant tuning, power balancing, nerfing, buffing, etc, etc...To be honest, that's not our focus. We have limited numbers of Systems Designers and their primary focus is on creating new Powersets, proliferation and revisiting older Powersets (when there is time.)
- PVP activity is not a priority for the vast majority of our Community. Yes, I agree that the argument could be made that it's a symptom of the cause rather than the cause itself, however it is what it is. For better or worse, City of Heroes is a PVE centric game where (many, *not* all) players would rather the challenge of designing an amazing costume than duking it out in the arena.
Go ahead, I'll wait.
Now that you've started reading again, here's the rest of the story:
We continue to plead the case of the remaining PVP Community to the development team. I continue to push for changes to PVP to be made and improvements to be considered (Keep in mind, improvements in recent memory such as the individual settings for Arena matches were done in one developers spare time, after hours.) There are ideas, and even devs who really want to do things with PVP, but *anything* we would consider requires code work, possibly animation work, and definitely a significant amount of systems designer work. The designers, engineers and artists are already tasked to the max, already working multiple hours of OT and already pushing extremely hard just to get the content we are working on out the door to the players.
There is no lack of desire to do something, anything, with PVP. There is a difficulty proving that it's better to work on PVP over a new Powerset.
And to answer the OP: Yes, I occasionally PVP on my personal account. No, I won't tell you what my global is and no, I will not 1v1.
I think one thing that has always been frustrating to the PvP community has been the lack of communication by the staff. It's kind of like adding insult to injury, so that's a start.
Anyways, I do appreciate the efforts, but I have to say after 5+ years of having the same exact PvP, no additions, no changes, I've certainly lost hope. I think most people have either just accepted that's the way it is and tried to make the best of it, or have decided it's not worth the effort and quit. -
Quote:I don't think that was the point of the thread anyways. More then anything, it was just to put the info out there.Originally Posted by SmegHead
You seem to think that they care about PvP when then implement things. They don't. Just look at burnout... or incarnates. PvP is on the bottom of the food chain. It isn't worth the time or money in a game that has a almost non existent PvP crowd.
But I guess if you haven't realized this after so many YEARS of pvp neglect, you never will. -
Well, any change in the way procs work is going to affect PvP one way or another. Whether it's a net-nerf or net-buff it's going to affect PvP immensely, as most high-end PvP builds rely heavily on proc-damage to be effective, because procs have been the best way to achieve high damage in PvP for a very, very long time. If this turns out the way you say, Sentry, this will be a fairly big deal in regard to PvP builds.
I'm not sure what you have against discussing the PvP-specific factors of this issue in the PvP forums, Chad. It's not keeping people from then going onto the beta discussion boards to chip in if they want. All this is really doing is raising the awareness of it in the PvP community. Most people don't lurk the forums all day, and a lot of PvPers don't like venturing outside of the PvP forums.
I'm also not sure what makes you feel you have the authority to tell others where they should and should not discuss things. (@Chad) -
Quote:I do like dinosaurs...Originally Posted by Brennivin
Street Justice is pretty good. Crushing Uppercut after a StJ buildup hits like a train full of dinosaurs.