I read it all....I'm not happy either now >:|
Having spent a good month getting my stalker up to scratch and now finding out he's going to be nerfed...not good
[Union Chat]Sebaddon: If you want to, we will, if you think it's weird, no, that's damz, not us.
[Union Chat]Damz: hey cyber, i am your naked pope for the evening, please confess to me my child
I hate the nerf to IO Procs and even more so SBE procs but to be fair some of that wall of text seems to be working off the first propstion that proc hurt rates based off global recharge like SB, hasten and io set bonuses but that is no longer the case
Quote:
It doesn't, I realize global recharge has no effect on the proc rate.|
Originally Posted by Cheetatron
I hate the nerf to IO Procs and even more so SBE procs but to be fair some of that wall of text seems to be working off the first propstion that proc hurt rates based off global recharge like SB, hasten and io set bonuses but that is no longer the case
|
The problem is that the procs go off of the Rech slotted in the power before DR is factored. If every has 0 global recharge, it's possible they could put the PPM rates based on the DRed total of recharge, but every in PvP has global recharge.
I'm done trying to explain this in words I can't find. Instead I'll just post some numbers.
@Sentry4 @Sentry 4
PvP Redux is discontinued, for obvious reasons. Thanks to everyone who helped and joined.
So... you're making a new thread to complain about something that isn't even being beta tested yet and already has an official discussion thread?
Clearly this must be the best way to communicate your displeasure to the developers.
Main Hero: Chad Gulzow-Man (Victory) 50, 1396 Badges
Main Villain: Evil Gulzow-Man (Victory) 50, 1193 Badges
Mission Architect arcs: Doctor Brainstorm's An Experiment Gone Awry, Arc ID 2093
-----
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Nethergoat
it's NEVER too late to pad your /ignore list!
|
Quote:
Or I realize that any major news regarding PvP should be posted in the PvP forums. If something is going to affect the PvP player base on a huge scale, it seems like a good decision to post it where they will see it.|
Originally Posted by Chad Gulzow-Man
So... you're making a new thread to complain about something that isn't even being beta tested yet and already has an official discussion thread?
Clearly this must be the best way to communicate your displeasure to the developers. |
If you've read everything I've stated, it doesn't matter how they decide to tweak the PPM rates or the equation.
It -cannot- work with DR.
Unless they scrap the PPM idea all together, PvP is going to get hit.
If they instead actually scrap the idea all together, maybe these posts and threads helped.
And you really thought I was trying to communicate with the developers from the PvP forums? That's worth a good laugh
@Sentry4 @Sentry 4
PvP Redux is discontinued, for obvious reasons. Thanks to everyone who helped and joined.
I've posted the evidence of how PPM will always be underpreforming in PvP on the official thread.
This thread was to alert the playerbase that only reads the PvP forums.
Here's the post.
http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showp...&postcount=686
@Sentry4 @Sentry 4
PvP Redux is discontinued, for obvious reasons. Thanks to everyone who helped and joined.
This post probably fits better in here for the discussion at hand:
Quote:
I just think that you'd end up doing less damage with your suggestion as listed than with the proc nerf, but if I'm missing something please let me know.
|
Originally Posted by Siolfir
Quote:
The settings I've seen almost universally disabled were heal decay and travel suppression, and the answer when I asked about DR was that "it made it almost impossible to get a kill against someone who was halfway competent" because there wasn't a way to disable the base resistances. While I admittedly am not an expert and haven't done any calculations to figure out how the effects would change, the reasoning behind your suggestion of disabling DR seems to be the same, and I don't see how the suggestion puts you in a better place. |
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle
it has gone from unconscionable to downright appalling that we have no way of measuring our characters' wetness.
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Brillig
It's hard to beat the entertainment value of Whackjob Wednesdays.
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Siolfir
Off-topic to the PPM question, but relevant to the suggested solution - don't most arena matches leave DR on because the base resistances granted for the PvP environment end up causing you to do far less damage overall, even with a better chain and unresisted procs firing more often?
The settings I've seen almost universally disabled were heal decay and travel suppression, and the answer when I asked about DR was that "it made it almost impossible to get a kill against someone who was halfway competent" because there wasn't a way to disable the base resistances. While I admittedly am not an expert and haven't done any calculations to figure out how the effects would change, the reasoning behind your suggestion of disabling DR seems to be the same, and I don't see how the suggestion puts you in a better place. Edit: posted this in the thread in the PvP section discussing the upcoming changes - replies on this tangent should probably go there. |
Very true.
The squishy resistances being so high (40%) were implemented knowing DR would make them a lot less. That's why people don't turn off DR in the arena, without an option to turn off base resistances, we've got the big buff without the big debuff to put it in place.
With a solution of getting rid of DR, I would also mean getting rid of everything in place that -depends- on DR, such as squishy resistances.
I realize that's a pretty big request that most likely won't go through, so I've changed my solution to just getting DR to not affect recharge. Setting the parameters of A=1 and B=0 for recharge would make it unaffected by DR. This would mean that the procs work the exact same in PvE as PvP.
Thanks for the reponse, I almost posted it in the other thread.
@Sentry4 @Sentry 4
PvP Redux is discontinued, for obvious reasons. Thanks to everyone who helped and joined.
Quote:
Pertinent news for the PVP community being posted in the one place they all converge and thereby increasing exposure of the issue? Rather than some obscure thread on the beta forums that barely anyone reads?|
Originally Posted by Chad Gulzow-Man
So... you're making a new thread to complain about something that isn't even being beta tested yet and already has an official discussion thread?
Clearly this must be the best way to communicate your displeasure to the developers. |
Yeah I'd say it's a good idea.
Here's a tip for you: stop clicking "new posts". That's the first sign of forum addiction.
Quote:
Xanatos already beat me to it but Sentry is one of the only people I see posting who actually know what they're talking about and he deserves recognition for this; I would rather read the numbers and theories he posts than any crap the devs post, at least Sentry backs his stuff up with numbers. I would have never picked up on this change to procs if it wasn't for the pvp section of the forums.|
Originally Posted by Chad Gulzow-Man
So... you're making a new thread to complain about something that isn't even being beta tested yet and already has an official discussion thread?
Clearly this must be the best way to communicate your displeasure to the developers. |
It seems 'complaining' is the only thing the pvp community can do to get heard and the devs still disregard anything we say, I mean look at i13...
It still amazes me how the devs seem to find ways to change things that affect pvp for the worse instead of changing what really needs it.
"You wrote that the world doesn't need a saviour, but everyday I hear people cry for one"
Mortilance - Elec/WP Stalker
Quote:
The thread is in the Developer's Corner, not the Beta forums, and is therefore accessible to anyone whether subscribed or not, and at 23K+ views I'd hardly call that a thread with barely anyone reading it.|
Originally Posted by Xanatos
Pertinent news for the PVP community being posted in the one place they all converge and thereby increasing exposure of the issue? Rather than some obscure thread on the beta forums that barely anyone reads?
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Mortilance
Xanatos already beat me to it but Sentry is one of the only people I see posting who actually know what they're talking about and he deserves recognition for this; I would rather read the numbers and theories he posts than any crap the devs post, at least Sentry backs his stuff up with numbers. I would have never picked up on this change to procs if it wasn't for the pvp section of the forums.
|
It's perfectly fine that Sentry came and posted pertinent information here, but it's turned into a discussion thread when it should have been a "Hey guys, come to this official thread and let your voices be heard" message.
The thread is also titled specifically to fear-monger. It is NOT a global damage nerf. Players that don't use Procs aren't going to see any difference in their damage output, and Synapse has already said that some of the lower activation rate (10-15%) procs are going to be brought up in line with existing procs and that he foresees procs across the board firing off more often after he's done than they do currently... even if that means that high-end builds might not get as much benefit from the change as a lower-end build might.
Main Hero: Chad Gulzow-Man (Victory) 50, 1396 Badges
Main Villain: Evil Gulzow-Man (Victory) 50, 1193 Badges
Mission Architect arcs: Doctor Brainstorm's An Experiment Gone Awry, Arc ID 2093
-----
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Nethergoat
it's NEVER too late to pad your /ignore list!
|
Quote:
You're underestimating the value of procs in PvP. The third time I've had to post this.|
Originally Posted by Chad Gulzow-Man
The thread is also titled specifically to fear-monger. It is NOT a global damage nerf. Players that don't use Procs aren't going to see any difference in their damage output, and Synapse has already said that some of the lower activation rate (10-15%) procs are going to be brought up in line with existing procs and that he foresees procs across the board firing off more often after he's done than they do currently... even if that means that high-end builds might not get as much benefit from the change as a lower-end build might.
|
+Dmg is DRed, resistance is typically 40%-50%. The fact that procs are -unresisted- and unaffected by DR means they have a huge role in PvP. Anywhere from 30%-50% of damage can come from procs alone.
When you're fighting an electric armor or invul melee in a t9, around 80% of your damage is coming from procs. Depending on how many you have, that can get them down. I had a Claw/regen that used 4 procs in Swipe/Strike/Slash/Follow up. I can tell you the majority of my damage was from procs alone.
When I started to do some PvE calculations, I thought it was odd people weren't 4 Procing their attacks. That's because in PvE, +dmg means a lot, and procs are resisted.
Procs are a huge deal in PvP. Every single PvP build you see will have multiple procs. There is no question that a change to procs is a change to PvP.
You're right about one thing. It's very possible that the procs will be doing more damage on average than now. That's not the point.
The point is that if the procs are balanced in PvE, they will be -underpreforming- in PvP.
If you've read all my posts, you'd understand that. If they give +1000 HP to every AT except for Blasters, I am calling that a Blaster surivability nerf. The reason being that all the new content, new powers, and anything ever adjusted will be adjusted assuming every AT has that +1000HP.
This is what's happening to PvP. PvE and PvP have similar procs right now, but if -any- PPM system is introduced that calculates recharge and has the procs performance based off of that, the procs will not preform as well in PvP.
This means that our procs in PvP will not be as good as in PvE. It's impossible to balance.
The proc sees that my power recharges in 10 seconds and gives me a percentage based on that, except with DR it actually recharged in 15 seconds.
It's evaluating my powers incorrectly. If someone didn't know the mechanics of why it was happened, this would be classified as a bug. To be honest, it pretty much is a bug. An unforeseen, unintended consequence of a change. A change that means certain circumstances will result in less damage given.
I understand they are still in the testing phase, but that's why I need to bring attention to it now. There aren't any solutions to making PPM and DR work together. They could spend a lot of time trying to tweak it, but it will never work. It could be in the earliest stages or coming out next week, the idea itself is flawed in regards to PvP.
My thread title is accurate. I've shown with Fire blast, that it's damage chain will be reduced.
If they change it where as Fire Blast chains will do more, it's still a nerf compared to the proc chances it has in PvE.
@Sentry4 @Sentry 4
PvP Redux is discontinued, for obvious reasons. Thanks to everyone who helped and joined.
Well, any change in the way procs work is going to affect PvP one way or another. Whether it's a net-nerf or net-buff it's going to affect PvP immensely, as most high-end PvP builds rely heavily on proc-damage to be effective, because procs have been the best way to achieve high damage in PvP for a very, very long time. If this turns out the way you say, Sentry, this will be a fairly big deal in regard to PvP builds.
I'm not sure what you have against discussing the PvP-specific factors of this issue in the PvP forums, Chad. It's not keeping people from then going onto the beta discussion boards to chip in if they want. All this is really doing is raising the awareness of it in the PvP community. Most people don't lurk the forums all day, and a lot of PvPers don't like venturing outside of the PvP forums.
I'm also not sure what makes you feel you have the authority to tell others where they should and should not discuss things. (@Chad)
@TheKatalyst
My **** is bleeding.
Quote:
Like I said, it was mostly the fear-mongering and spreading of incomplete information as if it were already set in stone. Because the first part is ridiculous and the second part is foolish.|
Originally Posted by The Katalyst
I'm also not sure what makes you feel you have the authority to tell others where they should and should not discuss things. (@Chad)
|
But now that I've had a crappy day and a few drinks in me (which, if you know me at all, you'll know is highly irregular bordering on sign-of-the-apocalypse), I can say with pancakish confidence: it sounds like procs needed a PVP nerf for a while. If they're being heavily used specifically to get around damage caps the way you guys are saying, then it sounds like the exploit of a loophole in the system and you're just begging to be grandfathered in because they're only now trying to untangle that loop.
But rest assured, I've said my peace and am no longer visiting this thread, so you can all roll your eyes at this post and ignore it. I'm too out of alcohol to give any more damn.
Main Hero: Chad Gulzow-Man (Victory) 50, 1396 Badges
Main Villain: Evil Gulzow-Man (Victory) 50, 1193 Badges
Mission Architect arcs: Doctor Brainstorm's An Experiment Gone Awry, Arc ID 2093
-----
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Nethergoat
it's NEVER too late to pad your /ignore list!
|
Quote:
Yeah, the best way to fix something that's really broken is to break it further, right? The only reason procs are relied on is because the system is a complete joke, and there is literally no physical way to kill most players without them. The solution is to fix the system, not to break another part of it.|
Originally Posted by Chad Gulzow-Man
it sounds like procs needed a PVP nerf for a while.
|
But in the end it doesn't matter, because they devs will do whatever they've already decided to do. The 50 total PvP'ers that are left aren't going to sway them one way or the other.
"The point is that if the procs are balanced in PvE, they will be -underperforming- in PvP."
A CoH dev would look at that statement and say: "Awesome, the procs are balanced!....wait, what's that second part of the sentence about? Ah whatever, time to work on some more animated tails."
Quote:
Wow getting drunk and then posting on an MMO's forum. I'm jealous of your life! Please come back again and give us your 2 cents about PvP as if you have the slightest of clue what you're talking about.
|
Originally Posted by Chad Gulzow-Man
Like I said, it was mostly the fear-mongering and spreading of incomplete information as if it were already set in stone. Because the first part is ridiculous and the second part is foolish.
But now that I've had a crappy day and a few drinks in me (which, if you know me at all, you'll know is highly irregular bordering on sign-of-the-apocalypse), I can say with pancakish confidence: it sounds like procs needed a PVP nerf for a while. If they're being heavily used specifically to get around damage caps the way you guys are saying, then it sounds like the exploit of a loophole in the system and you're just begging to be grandfathered in because they're only now trying to untangle that loop. But rest assured, I've said my peace and am no longer visiting this thread, so you can all roll your eyes at this post and ignore it. I'm too out of alcohol to give any more damn. |
@Psycho Jas
You seem to think that they care about PvP when then implement things. They don't. Just look at burnout... or incarnates. PvP is on the bottom of the food chain. It isn't worth the time or money in a game that has a almost non existent PvP crowd.
But I guess if you haven't realized this after so many YEARS of pvp neglect, you never will.
Quote:
I don't think that was the point of the thread anyways. More then anything, it was just to put the info out there.
|
Originally Posted by SmegHead
You seem to think that they care about PvP when then implement things. They don't. Just look at burnout... or incarnates. PvP is on the bottom of the food chain. It isn't worth the time or money in a game that has a almost non existent PvP crowd.
But I guess if you haven't realized this after so many YEARS of pvp neglect, you never will. |
@TheKatalyst
My **** is bleeding.
I don't PvP, so maybe I am missing something... but if its a global Nerf... won't everyone be on the same footing still, since it will hit everyone?
Quote:
Procs work a bit differently in PvP then they do in PvE.
|
Originally Posted by Thirty-Seven
I don't PvP, so maybe I am missing something... but if its a global Nerf... won't everyone be on the same footing still, since it will hit everyone?
|
@TheKatalyst
My **** is bleeding.
Ummm, okay. So you must be saying that if all Procs are decreased in Damage... somehow individuals using them will somehow still not be equal?
My point was that if all of them decrease in effectiveness, it won't matter since no -one- PvPer will be at a disadvantage. You didn't seem to speak to that.
Quote:
It was addressed somewhat, but not outright explicitly stated, here:|
Originally Posted by Thirty-Seven
Ummm, okay. So you must be saying that if all Procs are decreased in Damage... somehow individuals using them will somehow still not be equal?
My point was that if all of them decrease in effectiveness, it won't matter since no -one- PvPer will be at a disadvantage. You didn't seem to speak to that. |
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Sentry4
You're underestimating the value of procs in PvP. The third time I've had to post this.
+Dmg is DRed, resistance is typically 40%-50%. The fact that procs are -unresisted- and unaffected by DR means they have a huge role in PvP. Anywhere from 30%-50% of damage can come from procs alone. When you're fighting an electric armor or invul melee in a t9, around 80% of your damage is coming from procs. Depending on how many you have, that can get them down. I had a Claw/regen that used 4 procs in Swipe/Strike/Slash/Follow up. I can tell you the majority of my damage was from procs alone. |
I'm not sure how much reduction would cause that but since the only way to determine a winner is based on defeating the other team, how many 0-0 ties would you want to participate in?
Thus, the concern.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle
it has gone from unconscionable to downright appalling that we have no way of measuring our characters' wetness.
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Brillig
It's hard to beat the entertainment value of Whackjob Wednesdays.
|
Quote:
They listened plenty, actually implemented changes that were wanted, but was pushed out the door in the worst way possible.|
Originally Posted by Mortilance
It seems 'complaining' is the only thing the pvp community can do to get heard and the devs still disregard anything we say, I mean look at i13...
|
http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthread.php?t=288179
I think they listened to the wrong people. It seems like they cherry picked the ones that hated pvp because they got stomped the second they entered a zone over the people that took the time to learn the system and enjoyed it.
Yes yes, it's a huge wall of text.
TL;DR It's a long explanation of why your damage is going to be less after they change the current procs. This is because the procs are set up as if DR doesn't exist. Unless these procs are changed to consider PvP, or PvP is changed to consider the procs, -you- are going to be doing less damage.
It's indirectly nerfing all of our damage, as procs will go off more often, but in attacks not used as much, and the balance is tilted to lowering your damage.
Here it is.
That means that being in a PvP zone will lower my proc rate. They specifically ignored global recharge because they didn't want other player buffs affecting the individual. Except now a zone buff is affecting my recharge, meaning an outside source meant to buff me is debuffing me.
I doubt they will look into this, because not enough people realize this or the mechanics in PvP to understand it and have a voice about it. Maybe someone with some influence can make this case to the devs, because people still PvP.
The solution would be to cut off the little linear +rech bonus to powers in a PvP zone. This means if someone intentionally wants to leave +rech out of their power for a higher proc rate, they can do so in Peace.
The PPM does not factor DR.
PPM goes off the recharge slotted in the power, but DR only affects the total of my recharge.
That means that if I have 100% slotting in my power, PPM mechanics treat it like the power recharges 100% faster, when in truth that 100% recharge is DRed to 83%.
Whatever you decide the balance to be in PvE, it will be -underpreforming- in PvP because of this. That is not good, that means either PvP is balanced with procs or PvE is.
It is completely impossible to balance both the PvP and PvE procs because they're based on a number we have -before- DR hits us. Meaning PPM is treating us as if we're at full power when we're not.
PPM will -not- work in the current PvP setting. This is definitely a nerf to procs, or at least it will always underpreform to it's PvE countepart.
I "would" suggest that the devs make procs use the normal % method we've been using for years, but that won't solve the problem. It would make problems worse since people with PvE builds going into PvP will be even -further- from a PvP build. It would mean builds -must- be PvP spec'd, because yet another mechanic is changed from PvE to PvP. It would create more confusion and make PvP die more.
You can't return the procs to %s for that reason, and you can't implement the PPM system because it won't fit with DR.
Hell, this is really really reallllllllly going to hurt PvP. Procs are extremely important because they are unresisted damage, and with DR taking away a ton of +dmg, unresisted extra damage is the only way we can kill each other.
The only solution to this problem is to get rid of DR, so that PPM work in PvE and PvP exactly the same.
I don't expect this to happen though. More likely, PvP will get hit again.
I know the devs expressed how they needed to test a PvP environment without DR and TS and didn't want to just flip the switches, but it's either taking a chance or wrecking the current PvP system.
Turn off DR before the ship sinks.
While I can't give the full details or slotting (I'm a PvPer, and giving out my build is handing people my weakness and strengths on a piece of paper), the calculations were fairly simple.
The normal Apoc/Glad Jav Flares, Glad Jav in Fire Blast, and ATO proc/Glad Jav in Blaze on a Fire blaster gives +48 unresisted DPS. This was with the %s we have now.
Unforuntately, the ATO proc has a +rech component, meaning slotting it makes all the procs go off less often in that power. The next best DPS I could get was +41.4 DPS, that means it's a 7 DPS drop, which is a lot when you consider it's unresisted. For that reason, it's DPS drop is doubled (Typical resistance is 40% - 50%, and +dmg is DRed) compared to normal 200+ DPS builds. PvP numbers don't go that high. This DPS change is more like a 8% drop rather than the <4% drop if we were in DPS numbers of 200+.
Not only that, but like I stated up above, Blaze is close range and a player won't actually get it off that often. Using my more realistic chain above, the DPS goes from
41 DPS --> 30.5 DPS
All of the unresisted damage is stuck in Blaze, and even though it goes off more often in that power, the power itself is used -once- for every 3 flares in practice.
This is really bad. PvP is a lot different than PvE. Everyone survives by chaining powers, much like how regens do in PvE. If I drop 10% in damage, it means some people will be able to chain their Rebirth/Hiber/Hoarfrost + other powers that couldn't before. In a match with the current system, I could kill them 10 seconds before their Hiber was back and win. In the new system, that 10% drop in damage would mean they could make it into Hiber, and that's enough time for Rebirth, which stalls enough to make it to Hoarfost and the chain never ends. This is how all Ranged -and- Melee PvP is. Constant DPS to burn through everything the person has and kill them in the biggest space in their survivability chain. Nothing like PvE.
This is why Regen brutes with Recon/DP/IH/MoG/Barrier/Demonic/Burnout are near impossible to kill. The biggest pause they have in survivability comes after 20 minutes of full DPS, I've tested it against many brutes.
I don't believe Soul Touch was 100% sure the procs were getting nerfed, because even I wasn't, but he was correct about it. With PPM not factoring DR, with the biggest load of unresisted damage in a power you can't always use (limited range) and not even being able to use sets in the powers now (no more glad jav bonuses, they have +rech in 4/6 of their IOs), this is a massive nerf to procs for fire, which is very popular.
I don't expect any powersets will do more damage with the current formula for the PPM procs or the way they calculate their % chance. This is going to globally lower the damage of PvPers, unless the procs are buffed to the point where they're extremely overpowered in PvE and overcome the % procs used in PvP currently. I doubt that.
@Sentry4 @Sentry 4
PvP Redux is discontinued, for obvious reasons. Thanks to everyone who helped and joined.