On Travel Suppression and Heal Decay

You are mistaken. I invite you to try it. No gap is closed

As I said, the gap isn't closed: it is narrowed.

So what your basic argument is, using your terms of course, is that the 'casual' is far more important then the 'premade' and therefore the PvP in this game should be catered for the 'casual' PvPer's? I can assure you that TS and HD does not provide any sort of advantage to the 'casual' zoners against a group of organised PvPer's, if anything the 'casuals' are at a DISADVANTAGE because their heals are going to **** and so is their ability to evade.
Where you even around pre i13 PvP? You're over glorifying the fairness between the two sides in zone's post i13... If you've ever actually PvP'd in a zone before you'd know that all that ever happens is blue side camping red side or vice versa. I'm going to go ahead and assume that you never even PvP'd pre i13 which is why you fail to even slightly understand why some of us are so desperate for TS and HD to be removed.

All of the teams in the above screenshots were "premades" - each with at least two Empathy controllers/defenders. If any one of those teams (winning or losing in the posted screenshots) entered a PvP zone, they'd be camping the other side's base pretty quickly.

Less builds are viable. The importance of heavily IOd builds is increased. Players require second builds for PvP - as most powers work completely differently under "PvP rules".

How exactly is it more accessible?

So you're saying a bunch of random uncoordinated players who have little to no idea what they are doing should be able to hold their own against a coordinated practiced team?

i13 doesn't do that. It certainly attempts to, which is why we despise it, but it fails completely at even its intended purpose.

You should read this:

I'm sure you don't think so, but you're arguing for a system that works against the very people you're trying to represent. Those of us citing examples and sharing what we've seen and learned since I4 have spent plenty of time in both the Arena AND the zones. We know how it works. How it doesn't. Why. And we've thrown this information out there many many many many many times.

We're not arguing for change to further dominate the casual player base. And I've seen vet PvP'ers spend countless hours mentoring and generally helping those new to this part of the game, so it's not like we're closed off and elitist.

We don't like TS and HD. We've explained the reasoning. Provided numbers. Examples. Screen shots for the love of Mike. Offered to show people IN GAME what we mean. It gets old being answered with 'Nuh uh!'.


People like you are the biggest part of the problem. You're an enabler. And ignorant of how these things work. So you spew your misinformation and try to make it sound like you know what you're talking about. All you're doing is making it more difficult for those that don't know any better. So, since it's past your bedtime, why don't you run off to bed and let Mom and Dad talk ok?

Going against my own advice.. oh well.

Ninja I wrote that.

Lol my thoughts exactly.

This is just nonsense man.

It has nothing to do with premades or randoms. The PVP community does kickballs all the time and stuff dies. Are you familiar with kick balls? No TS/HD. Usually two emp or PDs on either team and stuff STILL dies...incarnates and all.

Also i13 DID NOT make PVP accessible to the more casual player. Ask just about any PVEer who tried PVP post i13. They will pretty much tell you it is confusing because their powers work drastically different from the way they do in PVE. Aye aye aye *headache*

I guarantee that if you put a premade and a random team together and ran a match with TS and HD off and then with TS and HD on, the premade team would rack up a much higher score in the second match.

@macskull, @Not Mac | XBL: macskull | Steam: macskull | Skype: macskull
"One day we all may see each other elsewhere. In Tyria, in Azeroth. We may pass each other and never know it. And that's sad. But if nothing else, we'll still have Rhode Island."

I agree with everything you posted, but I wanted to talk about the first paragraph in particular.

Yes, a lot of veteran PvPers have on many occassions tried to help new players, teach them what they know about PvP, tactics, builds. It happens quite often, and a lot of the people you are arguing with in this thread are those very people that are the most giving PvPers in the game. Most PvPers are not elitist or anything like that, I would say that hardcore elitist d-bag portion of the PvP community is actually much smaller than their counterpart. PvPers are competitive, so that may come off that way, but many of us would be more than happy to help new people if they asked for it.

Also, as stated above, we posted screenshots, and I even posted a video. All the screenshots are premade vs. premade, none of them are premade vs. random. That just goes to show you that even good arena teams get plenty of kills and yes, even die themselves. Many of those times are when both teams are playing at the top of their game and are trying to win. Most of these types of PvPers don't play that way in zone, I don't think that domination would ever translate directly over to zone just because most arena PvPers don't PvP seriously in zone.

Also, we do have random vs. random team matches, they are called Kickballs. Those teams are as random as arena gets in this game, and they still include plenty of kills, even in matches where both teams are running 2 emps/healers.

@macskull, @Not Mac | XBL: macskull | Steam: macskull | Skype: macskull
"One day we all may see each other elsewhere. In Tyria, in Azeroth. We may pass each other and never know it. And that's sad. But if nothing else, we'll still have Rhode Island."

Progress.

It's to show you that even without TS and HD, teams can consistantly rack up large amounts of kills in 10 minutes. This would translate over to zone in a lot of ways. Most of the kills in those matches happened quick enough that most zoners wouldn't have time to run 10 feet let alone go back to base. Getting kills without TS and HD is still very viable, I would say even more so in zone than in arena because zone is so much bigger.

This is true for a premade.
when you can call a target and all focus fire it, no amount of healing is going to keep it alive.
What about the casual players who aren't on vent or aren't even teamed and most certainly not calling targets. How do you think they would fare?

That's how it should be. I advocate travel suppression equal to the animation time of the power used. That way it prevents players from skipping rooting (which is easy with many powers). This way travel suppression functions to reduce unintended free movement but does not slow down the pace of combat or remove evasion as a skill.

If I thought the rest of the community would go for it, I would advocate a return to the old pre-i13 travel suppresion, which as Mac said made Kins incredibly useful if played well, and also forced people to switch between SJ and CJ a lot of times, which made combat somewhat more active in some cases. In order for this to work, I think slows would probably need to have a bigger effect than they do now, because that would give people an option to still keep people in range even if the attackers get suppressed. That was how the old system worked, things fell into place in such a way that more stuff was useful besides just straight damage. Even if TS was removed it wouldn't change the heavy focus on damage in post i13, unless slows were buffed a little. I just feel like completely removing TS for both attackers and evaders would be the easiest route to go.

Also, I really wish they would remove global resistance so sonics and therms had a reason to take their shield buffs again, and would actually be viable in team PvP again.

If all we're looking at is removing TS and HD and not tweaking the system in any other way, than I would lean more towards removing TS and HD but still offering HD (only in zone) in the form of respites still being affected. I think aura heals and outside heals should have their HD component removed. I would be fine with just removing both TS and HD in zone completely, but I think with the /auctionhouse command we would see a lot of people just buying greens in zone so they would never die unless they were actually hit by a good spike, which doesn't happen in zone by most PUG zone teams.

This game is balanced around teaming, even in PvE it was originally balanced around teams (You would know this if you played before IOs came out.) Balancing the game for solo players is a bad decision, it's part of what i13 tried to do and look at the mess it put PvP in.

i13 tried to cater to casual players, and, let's face it, bad players who wanted handouts that made them better without having to do any of the work themselves. It should also be noted that it didn't accomplish that.

i13 tried to widen the scope of viable tactics as well as viable powers/powersets/ATs. It made less things viable in general in PvP.

i13 tried to make 1v1 encounters more uniform, which it did well, far too well. Before i13, what inspirations you took to a 1v1 and how you managed them took far more thought than it does now. You bring a tray of greens most of the time, maybe blues if you're fighting draining toons, MAYBE a row of reds occasionally. This is all part of the simplification of PvP down to it being completely about who can do more damage to the other person.

Basically, all of the mechanics i13 introduced put together contributed to the state the PvP is in now. The only reason competitive arena still exists is because of the ability to remove HD and TS from arena, which I want to remind you was done by a developer in his spare time that he was not paid for doing.

Overall, i13 simplified most PvP encounters down to who can do the most damage fastest. There are a few i13 mechanics that could be removed and it would do wonders for this problem: Remove TS, Remove HD, and Remove Global Resists. I'm among the many players who had to shelve toons that were rendered useless in most i13 scenarios.

tl;dr removing TS and HD would be an easy first step that would be accepted by a majority of the PvP playerbase that would mend some of the issues with zone, and would also show the PvP community that all our whining about the two mechanics for 3 years now was not in vain.

removing TS and HD wouldn't fix PvP, not even close, but it's a clearcut solution that most of the playerbase can get onboard with. If you really think that the call to not remove it is anywhere near as big as the support to remove it, and that removing it would cause another i13esque exodus, than you must not talk to many PvPers.

/rant

Also, you do realize most zoners just spam target binds in team chat right? Yeah you don't have a spike countdown or anything like that, but you are still focus firing, and that will yield a similar result in zone even with TS/HD off as spiking does in arena, allbeit less effectively. People willing to go the extra mile and co-ordinate beyond spamming target binds shouldn't be punished, they should be rewarded.