On Travel Suppression and Heal Decay

IVe been playing melee's since i10 and TS does not help melee's at all, you do a move you slow just as much as the target and its frustrating. You made a good point, but the that is the devs fault, they should remove TS and just fix the damn slows, i remember when slows worked, a cold would slow you till it looked like you was about to DC and your toggles and powers after you used them took a bit to come back. This was how it should be, now you can super speed over things while slowed, and the FAIL is TS slows you more than any cold could hope to. PVP was fun for those of us that actually did it, it was things you just had to know, that no longer exist. If i pvp in a zone i need BF's, i need blues, i need greens, now i just run blues and the occasional big green. This actually all started in a thread years ago, someone had a good idea that was perverted into this nightmare, it went along the lines of suggesting melee upon a successful melee attack get granted a slight bit of TS on the target to help keep them around and we begged for taunt to do something in pvp. So the taunt fix was a great step in helping melee compete, so i guess they figured the hell with anything else and slapped on TS as im sure that was a way easier implementation than to rework melee's and give them a slight TS on there targets.

I disagree that Arena and Zone should follow a different rule-set. They should and do have the same default rules, only Arena is more customizable. This is as it should be; only, the default includes the poorly developed mechanics that are Diminishing Returns, Inherent Resistances, Travel Suppression, and Heal Decay. It is true that arena is much more structured, and zone is more impromptu. It is possible to survive a spike in zone, sure. Yet, if you are in no-phase and/or the spiking enemies have 2 or more targeting you, it is needlessly difficult to escape. Even one or two ranged enemies can permanently keep you in Travel Suppression. TS is surely not a requirement to stop hit-and-run game-play. Movement slows, holds, and immobilizes are just 3 mechanics that stop the running part of that. The problem with that is, those mechanics were nerfed into the ground to make room for the clunky beast that is Travel Suppression.

This next thing that you said, I want to isolate: "It forces you to stay in an engagement." You're right. It does force you to stay in an engagement. That just sucks. Do you mean to tell me that the developers can not think of a reason you should want to stay in an engagement? That is certainly the case, however sad it is. There is not much point to stay in an engagement where one risks their own death in this game. The only ones that come to mind are the thrill of defeating your opponent just before you are defeated.... or trolling. As a team and class-based game, should there not be an objective that opposing sides fight for? One should think so. Yet, what we get is pillboxes in Recluse's Victory. What's the point in capturing them? Certainly you can role-play the fight to control the future of Paragon City, but what happens when you win? Nothing. You can get some prestige or some reputation, or maybe a crappy summon temp-power. Who really cares about those rewards? None of them have much worth. Granted, the developers could give them worth, but that would be an entirely different endeavor. What I mean to say with this paragraph is that if the developers want us to commit to engagements in PvP rather than simply run from a loss, they need to provide a reason to do so, not force it upon us because: "We said so!"

You say that "TS give you the chance to retaliate." and "it supports the solo player." Yet, this is not always the case. A ranged can still kite a melee. Only, it happens at a much slower pace. Why should a melee be slowed by a ranged attack that does not have a slowing effect? Similarly, why should a ranged player be slowed by a melee's APP ranged attack? It doesn't make sense. It used to be: If you invest into speed, then you are fast. Now it is: If you invest into speed and then do (almost) anything, you are very slow. It makes sense that if you arrange your build to be a fast moving character that you are a fast moving character. With the introduction of Diminishing Returns, making a build to be very fast became a somewhat difficult goal. On top of that, Travel Suppression means that all of that travel speed is nullified by things that are not even remotely meant to slow you. I am fine with the idea that building for the travel cap is a difficult goal; however, I am not fine with the idea that you put all the work into a build only for it to be nullified by the nonsensical game mechanic of Travel Suppression. Nor should I be okay with that. It is contradictory to the nature of this game, and it is offensive to the players that like the nature of this game. I and many others along with me love the fast game-play afforded by the basis of this game and the travel powers that do much to make one's character feel "super."

Now, one should not have to be a super-fast, ranged character to feel "super." One should be able to make a monolith of a character, a metaphorical mountain, who is immovable, unable to be defeated by physical assault. This kind of character does exist. I have seen many tankers in RV who can literally stand still and take the assault of 10 or more villains without appearing to take any harm. Yet, what does one do with such a character? Surely they must be able to be defeated; a team full of blasters and debuffers can bring such a tank down. This kind of role has no purpose in CoH PvP, as it stands. There is nothing for them to defend, no ground for them to stand, no line of defenders for them to break. Instead, all we have is Death Match. Arena is all about kill counts. Zone typically becomes all about pushing to one side of the zone and spawn camping. That is the problem that needs to be addressed. We don't need the pace of game-play to be slowed down; we need a reason to not always be doing one of two: running or blasting.

Moving right on down the line... You are correct, removing TS and HD will not fix the problem. It would only serve to remove one of the many problems from which this game's PvP suffers. Heal Decay only makes a healer feel bored of the tedium of counting down the HD timer or helpless in that they cannot save their teammates. TS only slows down the pace of the game as a whole. It does not give an advantage to those who need it. As has been said, the biggest advantage TS gives is to full teams of ranged characters preying on individual enemies. I do not agree that their removal would "only complicate things;" I think it would help bring the game's pace back up to the level many wish that it were on. It will also make healers feel like they are fulfilling their role again. I do think that heals are exploitable, but Heal Decay is even more exploitable. We do need a wholesome fix, but all this development team gives are band-aid fixes. Removing HD and TS would be the simplest and largest positive-impacting change that could be made with the amount of time they are willing to give to PvP. Lastly, I think more people want to see HD and TS gone than you think. They are just not fun. They add more complexity and confusion than they are worth. They don't even solve the problems they were meant to solve. They need to go.


/essay

And that right there illustrates the problem. The mechanics were not fully tested before they were implemented, and the devs didn't listen to the feedback they did get from the little bit of testing that was done. It should have been a big clue that the people who were the supposed target of the changes didn't even bother to come out and test it. They figured they knew better and it was going in regardless of what the player base had to say on the matter.

You just don't get it. We were asked what we want. We said "We want HD and TS gone. Here's why." The "here's why" part contained sound logic and reasoning. If you cannot see that, you just don't know what those things are. Of course I am personally campaigning to have HD and TS removed. When I initially encountered them, I hated them. The more I thought about it, the more I understood precisely why that was so. I have individually constructed my own opinions based upon fact, and I have seen, agreed, disagreed, and commented on the opinions and arguments of others. There are many reasons HD and TS should be removed. Some are personal preference, some are simple logical contradictions they present when implemented into CoH. These ideas have been articulated several times in this thread and many more times in other ways and other threads. Some people would prefer to have HD and TS remain in the game for various reasons: some because they do not want to see more change in this game (maybe it makes them uncomfortable, maybe they don't want to respec), some because they honestly believe that HD and TS are sensible mechanics that are healthy to this game's PvP. There have been many convincing arguments given to disprove either thesis that HD and TS are sensible or healthy to this game. The fact that you refuse to see the logic in these arguments only implies that you are stubborn or trolling. It does not imply the the logic is not there or that it is flawed.

Lastly, if this is not a two-sided debate, why are you posting in my thread? I mean.. really.. Players that want HD and TS to remain don't have any reason to post here, yet you continually post here to oppose the removal of HD and TS? You need to actually understand logic before you can use it to be persuasive. I don't know whom you think you are convincing with your posts, but in reality they are only serving to clutter this thread.

Loading up Hypercam as we speak.

I accept your proposal, but fully expect that someone else will do most of the work.

Unfortunately none of the matches I have saved have both TS and HD on. I think there's like one or two with TS, but they don't really demonstrate much.

@macskull, @Not Mac | XBL: macskull | Steam: macskull | Skype: macskull
"One day we all may see each other elsewhere. In Tyria, in Azeroth. We may pass each other and never know it. And that's sad. But if nothing else, we'll still have Rhode Island."

Myth: It's too hard to get kills with TS and HD off if there are healers!

Fact: See below.

<3 lol

@macskull, @Not Mac | XBL: macskull | Steam: macskull | Skype: macskull
"One day we all may see each other elsewhere. In Tyria, in Azeroth. We may pass each other and never know it. And that's sad. But if nothing else, we'll still have Rhode Island."

Don't bother arguing with Dahjee. You're better off just ignoring his posts completely and responding to other people. It saves time.

TS is not perma unless they have some sort of toggle on you or you are placing it on yourself. People get away in RV all the time. If it were a scrapper, tank, or brute vs these two ranged adversaries, while they "pew pew" away at him giving him and them TS, they give the melee time to attack while they are caught in TS AND their animations. A melee can fight 2 ranged adversaries and put up quite a fight. Without TS it would just be them hopping over his head over and over again, completely removing his ability to fight back. This scenario is without web nades obviously, because if he webbed even one of them they would hightail it out of there.

Not all tankers are like Bruteshock and just stand there because they know they can't get kills. Your little team of 10 villains with blasters and debuffers can take him out sure, but are there any other heroes in this zone? What a sad little example you made. No line of defenders for a tank to break? You literally JUST said it is either basecamping or being basecamped. Let's ignore the huge push and battle in the middle of the zone childishly and focus on how that is exactly what a tank can break into. The ground for them to stand? Wherever the hell they want to stand.

You guys stick to your guns with the damage spam, but you disregard so many things and oversimplify it. There is much more to zone than you take for granted.

Such as...?

@macskull, @Not Mac | XBL: macskull | Steam: macskull | Skype: macskull
"One day we all may see each other elsewhere. In Tyria, in Azeroth. We may pass each other and never know it. And that's sad. But if nothing else, we'll still have Rhode Island."

This makes no sense. The screen shots are all of premades vs. premades; ie all the players have practiced together, know their tactics and their toons. If you want to see randoms vs randoms i'm sure that someone has a screenshot of kickballs laying around.

Do you really believe TS and HD would close the gap between a random team and a premade? Also, why would someone who PvPs want the game to have a ruleset that would remove the benefits of organized play?

First you said ( In your OP) that Zwill asked how you would feel if they were removed... Then you said he simply asked what you all wanted, as if to start a poll. Which one is it exactly? I wasn't there

You hated the system First... and began to understand why Second? That's not what most would call a good start to a logical reason. To clarify... this is because you obviously never overcame the change to began thinking objectively instead of subjectively based on your experience.

I agree there are many reasons given for the removal of HD and TS. What I'm trying to get across is the fact most of these reasons were based on personal PvP experience and perspectives similar to yours... So no. I'm not convinced and I'm just a player like you, while the devs are devlopers and ultimately resposible for making changes.

Finally Hemmingway3, You stated that this discussion IS a two sided debate earlier (missing my point in the process btw) and now you're saying that those against the removal do not belong in this thread... yet when my first response to you stated: You disageed? When this is indeed what your OP is aimed at right? No? Which one? Keep in mind this is my first appearance in a thread in 6 or so months... so no. I'm not trolling your thread. I have as great a desire in seeing PvP improve as anyone here I'm sure. My voice is simply to point the way in which too many are attempting bring about change and point out the fact if done a bit differently some might actually see that less change is needed as they may have origibnally thought. Simply put. You cannot prove a tool is ineffective when you express an open and obvious lack of desire to use it for it's inteneded prupose.

Lol Xan... I know this game and how to work it far better than you could ever hope too. There is no need for my name to appear every other thread you post simply because you're envious and/or bitter. Yes. It does show (In case you are wondering.)

This is a myth. Perpetuated by bad Melee toons that wouldn't know how to use LoS to counter range and close to melee if their... well I suppose there is no way for them to know that lol. Blame it on the Devs though... certainly not the super smart PvPers left among us.

Another example of poor tactics... At some point one has to consider whatever faulty attempt lead to the gangbang and stop trying to do it the same way.... over and over... under the current system and its mechanics.

Yet again... The skill is found in overcoming the difficulties and finding ways to overcome them... Refusing to do so simply leads to trying to make so many of the old combos work as well as before, being dissapointed in their efectiveness, or being handcuffed to scenarios where are just as effective. (See: TS/HD turned off)

Fix't


LOL Don't worry about it Mac... my post is Tl;DR already. Besides I'm sure you're happy where you are.

Keep the screenies and videos coming by the way. There is so much pruf in them it's not even funny! Actually though, it is to me considering being given names I recognize and remember from RV is priceless to see, and almost makes me want TS and HD removed from zones too! (Out of Pity that is)

If you truly think that ts and hd would help a random team, I invite you to be part of the random team

What! NO! Don't suggest that!

More robots please. Newbies must know that their way is "The Way". and I make all my moneys off of the bad psy/ems theyve been sending me!

lol seroiusly though (Like they would ever consider such sound advice)

As I said, whether TS and HD is on or not, premades will dominate.
The thing is, turning HD and TS off favours a premade far more than it does the casual. The power of healing is magnified a great deal when you can call for heals over vent/TS/whatever your chat program of choice is.
HD and TS remove one tiny advantage and give the casuals a chance - not much of a chance but at least a chance.
It doesn't make a great deal of difference against a premade but seriously, do the premades really feel the need to try and stack even more odds in their favour?