On Travel Suppression and Heal Decay
By
Antigonus,
Posted on: 2011-10-13 12:12 in Everything about PvP
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If they can't be significantly re-worked they should be removed along with most of the I13 PvP "improvements" like the diminishing returns system.
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Originally Posted by hemmingway3
The question was recently brought up in Freedom Arena Chat (I know.) of how the community would feel about removing Heal Decay and Travel Suppression. I feel as though it is blindingly obvious that the vast majority of the PvP community hates TS and HD.
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Thorizdin
Lords of the Dead
Old School Legends
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YOU sir are smarter than I. This is exactly what I would have liked to say. Perfect.
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Originally Posted by Fiery-Enforcer
It's a valid statement when the argument he commented on doesn't make much sense.
Some people actually think TS is beneficial when it's really not. All it helps is unsuppressed targets to catch up to suppressed targets to land at least one attack. You see this doesn't help melee characters in the way people think. Once you're both suppressed, you're moving at the same speed, which is just annoyingly slow. In the end all TS does it make it very easy for a group of players to kill another player. HD is just as much an idiotic idea as TS. I've never heard a good argument for this feature, besides from players fears of other players getting healed by emps. Guess what? It's pretty simple actually, kill the emp! I assume most of the people who "like" the current system are all the bad KM Scrappers that think they will suck if anything is changed. |
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Luckily, you can only hold a limited number of inspirations before you need to leave the zone to refill your tray. If you're constantly leaving to buy greens you aren't contributing to the PvP going on and you're missing changes at PvP IO drops.|
Originally Posted by Zahyl
It has a desirable effect on players that spam greens consecutively
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| But how much damage should a spike target be allowed to survive with emp heals? |
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| Without HD it's extremely difficult to kill your spike target if the enemy emp is focused on him. |
@macskull, @Not Mac | XBL: macskull | Steam: macskull | Skype: macskull
"One day we all may see each other elsewhere. In Tyria, in Azeroth. We may pass each other and never know it. And that's sad. But if nothing else, we'll still have Rhode Island."
"One day we all may see each other elsewhere. In Tyria, in Azeroth. We may pass each other and never know it. And that's sad. But if nothing else, we'll still have Rhode Island."
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because whats the point in continuously supporting ideas with facts over and over and over again if they never get listened to?|
Originally Posted by Zahyl
Maybe the devs don't take you guys seriously on the forum because all you guys ever do is attack eachother? I'm only new to the forum, not the game. I thought it would be fun to hop on here and debate, yet all I see are a bunch of arrogant, bitter players whose main points have been simply that it is a bad mechanic, with no facts or ideas supporting their idea.
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eventually even the most staunch players, get bored and tired. it's easier just to say its a bad mechanic as short hand for explaining why, because the why has been said, literally thousands of times that no one old feels that it needs to be said anymore. hell the "why" is sticky'd at the top of the entire section.
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| How can the devs take you guys seriously when all you can do is scream and call people names? |
this thread has no point because it's main idea is never going to happen.
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| Hopefully Zwillinger will be able to talk some sense into them. He's legitimately our only chance at change. |
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| Dude just ignore Dahjee. He's arguably the most successful troll in PVP history. |
it even beat je saist's spine/shield scrap. i've never been able to do that
Positron's i13 letter: We are trying to make PvP more accessible to new players, while giving experienced PvP'ers the advantage that comes with formulating tactics around the new systems we're putting in place. PvP from now on will be on our priority list. If something isn't working out, we'll be in there tweaking it and making it work, for the entire future of the product, not just Issue 13.
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I can't stress enough how true this. IF CoX ever wants to develop a PvP following the game has to optimize for team v team play. HD, DR, and TS all diminish the value of support so you get what we have in the zones today which is mainly solo capable characters rather than teams. That's not healthy for growing a PvP community.
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Originally Posted by macskull
That's the point. That's how it should be. Part of PvPing intelligently is prioritizing your targets, and that almost always means eliminating the support first.
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Thorizdin
Lords of the Dead
Old School Legends
First of all, I shouldn't have to explain why TS and HD are terrible mechanics. It has absolutely nothing to do with competition or giving an edge to good or bad players. Bad players are bad, nothing will ever change that.
The reason this game was fun for a lot of people who played to PvP was because of the speed. You add TS, you remove the speed. You remove the speed, you greatly diminish the fun. What part of that is so hard to understand? No sane person takes zone PvP seriously enough to really care much about balance, so people should be more worried about fun. TS doesn't give an advantage to any particular playstyle (ranged vs. melee) all it does is slow down the game to the point where it often becomes frustrating to play. Games should not be frustrating, they should be fun. TS is not a fun mechanic.
Heal Decay is a different beast. I understand why HD is a somewhat warranted mechanic. Optimally, HD should only be on in zone, and should only affect outside heals and Respites (this is more my personal opinion.) But should leave aura heals or any method of self healing alone. However, if you had to either remove it or keep it in it's current form, I say remove it.
In short: I absolutely don't understand why anybody would want TS to stay. I can understand why some people might like HD, but TS is the single most terrible mechanic implemented in this game, ever. There's no real reason to not remove it. I would like to see HD go too or have it reworked to the way I stated above, but I wouldn't lose sleep if TS was removed and HD was not.
Let me clarify that no incarnation of TS or HD should ever be allowed in arena PvP, imo.
Sincerely yours,
Critical Katalyst
@TheKatalyst
My **** is bleeding.
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No, see, *you* have an argument, with points and reasons for why you hold your opinion. The other guy is just making a quick insult with no actual reason behind it. No reason to listen to him. |
Originally Posted by Fiery-Enforcer
It's a valid statement when the argument he commented on doesn't make much sense.
Some people actually think TS is beneficial when it's really not. All it helps is unsuppressed targets to catch up to suppressed targets to land at least one attack. You see this doesn't help melee characters in the way people think. Once you're both suppressed, you're moving at the same speed, which is just annoyingly slow. In the end all TS does it make it very easy for a group of players to kill another player. HD is just as much an idiotic idea as TS. I've never heard a good argument for this feature, besides from players fears of other players getting healed by emps. Guess what? It's pretty simple actually, kill the emp! I assume most of the people who "like" the current system are all the bad KM Scrappers that think they will suck if anything is changed. |
TS slows you down because you're supposed to, you know, fight each other in a PVP zone. If all you wanted to do was play 'tag' in pvp, then you might as well just go back to Atlas Park and do that.
If you're getting ganked by a group of players in PVP then you need to join up with a group of players and fight back.
Because PVP is about fighting.
I'd rather both of them stay and just be adjusted. No win for those who hate everything and no win for those who think they should stay.
Travel Suppression can be made only to effect you while being damaged, debuffed, or healed by an ally. Remove the supression from buffs, -regen, and inspiration popping.
Heal Decay should made to effect all non healing powersets, the heals from an ally, and inspirations.
-X2-
@x2crunner and @x2crunner2
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You don't need TS to be turned on in order for fights to happen.
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Originally Posted by Warkupo
TS slows you down because you're supposed to, you know, fight each other in a PVP zone.
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No, but my experience in PVP shows me that you need it turned on in order for fights to finish. When it was off, everyone just ran away before they actually died. You could launch another attack, and maybe even kill them if their health was low enough. Most of the time, however, trying to attack a fleeing enemy just meant that you were giving them extra distance to escape. You're only real option was to spend the next two minutes chasing this guy around the zone, hoping that he got caught on a tree or something, or just wait around until he heals up and tries to attack you again. Which ultimately brings me back to repeating myself: If you just wanted to play tag, you can do that in Atlas Park. I prefer PVP to be about killing each other, not chasing each other. |
Originally Posted by Xanatos
You don't need TS to be turned on in order for fights to happen.
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Long and short of it is simply that I don't like chasing people. I don't consider that PVP. That's not my build against yours, my powers used strategically against yours. That's just us jumping around a bunch of buildings for awhile until you feel all better and decide to fight me again. I don't like chasing people around, so TS is always going to be a good idea to me.
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Lemme guess. You're Km/regen with tough and no SJ |
Originally Posted by Warkupo
No, but my experience in PVP shows me that you need it turned on in order for fights to finish. When it was off, everyone just ran away before they actually died. You could launch another attack, and maybe even kill them if their health was low enough. Most of the time, however, trying to attack a fleeing enemy just meant that you were giving them extra distance to escape. You're only real option was to spend the next two minutes chasing this guy around the zone, hoping that he got caught on a tree or something, or just wait around until he heals up and tries to attack you again. Which ultimately brings me back to repeating myself: If you just wanted to play tag, you can do that in Atlas Park. I prefer PVP to be about killing each other, not chasing each other.
Long and short of it is simply that I don't like chasing people. I don't consider that PVP. That's not my build against yours, my powers used strategically against yours. That's just us jumping around a bunch of buildings for awhile until you feel all better and decide to fight me again. I don't like chasing people around, so TS is always going to be a good idea to me. |
But in all seriousness there is this thing called "evading" it is just as much a part of PVP as attacking. Bob and weave.
OH! How about this. DEVS! FIX SLOWS. problem solved.
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Which is what SHOULD happen if the one winning doesn't have a tool to slow or mez the person running away. Keeping people from evading is part of the strategy in PvP that's been completely lost today. Either individual builds or team building should address running away instead of a built in mechanic that doesn't work well. Your entire argument seems to revolve around 1v1 and builds that don't have any control or slows.
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Originally Posted by Warkupo
No, but my experience in PVP shows me that you need it turned on in order for fights to finish. When it was off, everyone just ran away before they actually died.
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Thorizdin
Lords of the Dead
Old School Legends
Heal Decay is fine, immortals in pvp are no fun. If we were allowed immortality, we would all have it and pvp would no longer exist.
About travel suppression, I am for removing it but only with one caveat: all travel powers are greyed out in zone pvp. That would be a positive change.
I don't like the I13 changes.
Although I don't consider myself a hardcore PvPer, I used to go into Siren's, Warburg, RV and the arena periodically and had fun. The zones had groups of players on both sides and we would frequently push back and forth between the villain and hero bases.
I even used to sponsor "Monday Night Arena" on Justice where I would set up random matches using different settings. Last man standing, squishies only was awesome! The melee one was fun at the beginning but then it was down to to a regen scrapper and stone armor tanker. That was going nowhere fast until the tanker suggested they fight without toggles. The scrapper agreed, thinking that he would out damage the tank out of granite, but the tanker held him and knocked him out. Classic!
I used to play pvp on an inv/ss tanker, emp, ice/kin, grav/ff controller, sonic/rad corrupter and anything else that I made. Even though they weren't made for pvp, I had fun. I got kills, I died, I contributed.
If my sonic/rad was a target, I could evade and heal. I could hit my opponent with rad toggles and try to mez them or out damage them. If I planned ahead and popped a breakfree, I wouldn't get my toggles dropped easily. Now his toggles drop if someone shoots a taser dart. Hell, my tanker gets held by a taser dart through unyielding AND unstoppable. My ice/kin could slow opponents and speed up teammates. Now he can't do either. My grav/ff could slow people too. Bubbles offered little help to my team then and now but at least dispersion bubble worked and personal force field actually protected me from death. Today, not so much.
Now I go to the zones on Justice and rarely see another player at all. And if there are other players it's because they are looking for badges, shivans, or nukes. The times I have gone post I13 have been nothing but frustration to me and apparently a lot of other people. The zones everywhere but Freedom are dead.
I understand that the devs felt that there were too many players that could avoid death by heals, inspirations, phase, hiber, and just plain running. They wanted pvp encounters to end in someone dying. Fair enough as a design goal but they went too far. Now, not only do pvp encounters end in death more frequently, they also killed my desire to engage in it at all.
If they hoped that these changes would attract more casual players they should realize by now that it did the opposite. It chased away vets AND casuals. The zone populations are proof enough.
50s: Inv/SS PB Emp/Dark Grav/FF DM/Regen TA/A Sonic/Elec MA/Regen Fire/Kin Sonic/Rad Ice/Kin Crab Fire/Cold NW Merc/Dark Emp/Sonic Rad/Psy Emp/Ice WP/DB FA/SM
Overlord of Dream Team and Nightmare Squad
For all of the people who for some reason think removing TS hurts melee toons: No. Unless you just throw on auto-follow and target an attack on someone, then wait til it goes off... then again, that's what like 99% of players do.
As someone who played a melee character against test players/teams more than anyone else still playing, I can say without a doubt that melee was infinitely more effective pre-travel-suppression.
I'm not saying it was balanced, but it was still way better.
I think Hiberlogging is more of an issue than anything presented in this thread.
If the devs want pvp to end in combat, they would make you unable to log while phased. As soon as the 30s countdown begins, phase should end.
Hiberlogging is becoming too prevalent.
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Originally Posted by Silit
For all of the people who for some reason think removing TS hurts melee toons: No. Unless you just throw on auto-follow and target an attack on someone, then wait til it goes off... then again, that's what like 99% of players do.
As someone who played a melee character against test players/teams more than anyone else still playing, I can say without a doubt that melee was infinitely more effective pre-travel-suppression. I'm not saying it was balanced, but it was still way better. |
1000% agreed. TS hurts melee just as much, if not more, than ranged.
It might be interesting to see TS only applied in certain very specific situations, such as the target of a successful melee attack. It might prove to be too abusive in that limited context however, so probably better to just get rid of it all together.
I can almost see a thematic (pssht RP) reason for TS, but HD makes absolutely no sense in any way. It's a bandaid mechanic designed to fix a problem that never really existed and the game as a whole is worse off for having it.
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So no-one finished a fight before I13?|
Originally Posted by Warkupo
No, but my experience in PVP shows me that you need it turned on in order for fights to finish.
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What about people who took powers that made it harder for people to run away? Web grenades, slows, holds, etc? You know...things that useful players took. (Aka the guys who didn't show up on melee characters with no travel powers and whine about PVP being unbalanced.)
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Originally Posted by Warkupo
When it was off, everyone just ran away before they actually died..
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Originally Posted by Warkupo
I prefer PVP to be about killing each other, not chasing each other.
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Originally Posted by Warkupo
Long and short of it is simply that I don't like chasing people. I don't consider that PVP.
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Originally Posted by Warkupo
That's not my build against yours, my powers used strategically against yours.
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Originally Posted by Warkupo
That's just us jumping around a bunch of buildings for awhile until you feel all better and decide to fight me again. I don't like chasing people around, so TS is always going to be a good idea to me.
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I don't think you have a lot of experience in PVP. Your argument in favour of TS doesn't actually mention what TS ACTUALLY does...it just mentions what it was INTENDED to do. It doesn't make it easier to catch runners, it doesn't make it easier for melee character versus ranged ones. (If anything it makes it harder!)
All TS does is slow down the gameplay and make it even easier to gank people.
Travel suppression had one significant change for zone PvP, besides making it suck. It forced almost everyone to take either phase or hibernate if they want to compete. If making phase damn near mandatory for zone PvP was the goal of TS, it was a success. Now if I want to escape I just pop phase and run rather than use my head and figure out a way to escape using the terrain to my advantage. Much more boring, less options for the player and very annoying. TS is fail all over.
I can see why they added HD because a skilled emp or therm were damn near invincible without a good team on your side. But then again you have to think, people had to use team work to get the job done in a team based MMO? Go figure...
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Pleeease tell me you're joking. |
Originally Posted by Giant2005
Heal Decay is fine, immortals in pvp are no fun. If we were allowed immortality, we would all have it and pvp would no longer exist.
About travel suppression, I am for removing it but only with one caveat: all travel powers are greyed out in zone pvp. That would be a positive change. |
Dude not everyone plays a regen scrapper. No travel powers would make ranged toons useless.
Travel Suppression helps NO ONE. You are BOTH slowed. It just overall slows down PVP.
As for heal decay. You would just need more actual skill to take down a target as someone said, "target the emp" which is what i do constantly. Aye aye aye, some of you are giving me a headache.
City of Heroes has given us MULTIPLE solutions to deal with either of these without the need for HD or TS. Here are some examples.
TS - Trick Arrows, Webnades, Holds, Soul Storm, and if it was working properly, slows.
HD - Cold debuffs, Poison debuffs, oh and let's not forget, team damage spikes!
No single build should be able to deal with every single situation. So, find a team.
Ares, Xanatos, Silit. You all made great points.
Can we please just remove TS and HD now plzthx.
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Hiberlogging will cease to become an issue if TS and HD are removed, because those are the reasons it started happening in the first place - there's absolutely no reason to hiberlog if I can simply heal up from a damage spike or evade my attackers in the first place.
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Originally Posted by Giant2005
I think Hiberlogging is more of an issue than anything presented in this thread.
If the devs want pvp to end in combat, they would make you unable to log while phased. As soon as the 30s countdown begins, phase should end. Hiberlogging is becoming too prevalent. |
@macskull, @Not Mac | XBL: macskull | Steam: macskull | Skype: macskull
"One day we all may see each other elsewhere. In Tyria, in Azeroth. We may pass each other and never know it. And that's sad. But if nothing else, we'll still have Rhode Island."
"One day we all may see each other elsewhere. In Tyria, in Azeroth. We may pass each other and never know it. And that's sad. But if nothing else, we'll still have Rhode Island."
i do it because people feel entitled to kills and it makes people really mad when you do it.
Still mute points and repeated opinions... If a PvE'r complains about PvP... we simply tell them that it's not mandatory and to avoid it if they don't like it, but you tell a PvPer that TS/HD is not mandatory and to avoid it if they don't like it... well they go on about how everyone shouldn't have to deal with it based on their own definition of fun... Go figure?
The best argument you all stood to have would've happened back when they allowed the removal of TS and HD in arena (I15?). If every PvPer started and continued playing arena (and ignoring zones) because of the no TS/HD option there... it would be easy to say/prove that everyone, or most everyone prefers those mechanics. However, it's admitted/accepeted that arena/KB is inconsistent day to day while RV/zone (Freedom) is not.
Ironically, because I know of most of you all too well... is the fact that if the Devs hadn't added those options to arena until say... I21, most of you all (that stayed) would be the first to call out peeps for demanding those setting to PvP now... having had no choice but to accept the current system...call yourselves awesome, and condemn anyone who prefers to do it differently than you.
Going forward, you're best bet is to avoid silly attempts to campaign the removal of 2+ year old mechanics, and instead embrace them so you can suggest additions to the game that may make them bearable for you (i.e. proliferating /Posion and creating Time Manip. instead of nerfing /Regens and adding useful Incarnates instead of nerfing Psy/ Blasters' Damage spikes etc)
"Situational power? Sure. Although in a sense... all powers are situational. It's just that some situations occur more than others." Understand the situation needed in order for the power to be most effective... and make that situation happen.
How can the devs take you guys seriously when all you can do is scream and call people names?
An as for why "every one sounds angry" is cause time and time again PvP has been but on the back burner so the Devs and make more crap costume pieces and a Walk power (cause that a game changer).
FYI: I see you getting a bit of back lash for this comment.