On Travel Suppression and Heal Decay
By
Antigonus,
Posted on: 2011-10-13 12:12 in Everything about PvP
In my experience, most PvPers choose their ATS/powersets based on whether they play with or without HD/TS. I prefer to play by zone rules, that is to say with HS and TS on, so when I fight someone who insists on turning them off, I'm at a huge disadvantage because I'm 1.) not used to it, 2.) not specced for it, and 3.) don't always have ideal powers for those rules.
Yes, I will always prefer to play with HD and TS on, but what I want more than that is for PvP to have one set of rules, and one set only. I've had plenty of arguments with players who insist on their rules when I want to play by mine (I'm looking at you Xanatos 
) and, rather than having any semblance of fun, it's just drama that could have been avoided. Therefore, I am hoping that when PvP is finally addressed, everyone is forced to play by the same game mechanics so we lose this divide among the already small PvP community.
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A decent and much avoided point you hit on.|
Originally Posted by Ruby
In my experience, most PvPers choose their ATS/powersets based on whether they play with or without HD/TS. I prefer to play by zone rules, that is to say with HS and TS on, so when I fight someone who insists on turning them off, I'm at a huge disadvantage because I'm 1.) not used to it, 2.) not specced for it, and 3.) don't always have ideal powers for those rules.
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In my opinion dual builds was a either a bone thrown to PvP'ers or a coincedence (I think not) that it came in I13 as well.
Unfortunately, some will consider their build and playstyle to be so super good, that they should not have to switch either their playstyle or build to compete when put into a different setting or set of rules.
It works both ways. We only seem to hear of one though.
"Situational power? Sure. Although in a sense... all powers are situational. It's just that some situations occur more than others." Understand the situation needed in order for the power to be most effective... and make that situation happen.
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except thats not at all what he was arguing. |
Originally Posted by Warkupo
Again, this is a simple argument from my perspective, and not a stance I am going to change. Yes, people can and do still attempt to flee, but the fact of the matter is that using a travel power is only useful for running too an enemy, or running from an enemy. I do not like chasing people, and removing TS is only going to further aggravate my irritation with having to chase people around.
Arguing that you like chasing people around is fine and dandy. I can meet that with a simple "fine, but I don't like doing it." Neither one of us is 'right' at that point, and majority rules. I'm okay with that. Arguing that people won't be able to run away more effectively with a travel power, however, is simply absurd. We both know they will, so let's not pretend like they won't. |
he was saying that no TS kept the speed of the game fast, and that having it in there has significantly slowed down.
Not having TS adds another aspect to the game that you have to account for. for instance, before i13 everyone was bouncing around like jumping beans how do you get a kill if everyone is fleeing and actively trying to *not* die? you get someone on your team that has a slow, immob, hold, mez, ect. so that when whoever was calling a target calls the target, it's easier to kill. it added another element to pvp that your team had to account for and handle in order to be effective and ultimately added to team diversity because it was much more useful to have someone on your team to take care of that.
you don't have that now because of what happened to slows and mez.
now if you want to argue whether or not that is "better" is one thing, but atleast acknowledge that its more complicated than "i like chasing people, i don't like chasing people" because it is.
and even then, I think you should atleast acknowledge that if TS is left in place, that it atleast in it's current state is overkill and needs to be lighten'd up alot. suppressing when you when you pop an insp, buff, debuff, ect. is completely absurd.
Positron's i13 letter: We are trying to make PvP more accessible to new players, while giving experienced PvP'ers the advantage that comes with formulating tactics around the new systems we're putting in place. PvP from now on will be on our priority list. If something isn't working out, we'll be in there tweaking it and making it work, for the entire future of the product, not just Issue 13.
What's funny is that TS really just makes it even easier to gank the casual player.
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Glad everyone's willing to listen to other perspectives and make a logical decision.|
Originally Posted by Warkupo
Again, this is a simple argument from my perspective, and not a stance I am going to change.
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By the way if you just invite a couple others to your team and toss a hold, you don't have to chase the target.
It seems that people that like TS don't like the fact that who ever they are trying to take down can, would get away from them if it wasn't for TS... when I started on Vic there was no TS/HD and I for the life of me can't think off the top of my head any villains that I could never catch(that and it was a long time ago), and I use to play a MA/WP scrapper and all I had was SS. There are so many powers to make it so whoever you are trying to kill can not get away or make it much harder, and since going rouge has come out there are even more power choice that EVERY AT can take that would be better for catching people than TS if TS was to be fixed/removed.
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Did you mean to quote me?|
Originally Posted by Warkupo
Again, this is a simple argument from my perspective, and not a stance I am going to change. Yes, people can and do still attempt to flee, but the fact of the matter is that using a travel power is only useful for running too an enemy, or running from an enemy. I do not like chasing people, and removing TS is only going to further aggravate my irritation with having to chase people around.
Arguing that you like chasing people around is fine and dandy. I can meet that with a simple "fine, but I don't like doing it." Neither one of us is 'right' at that point, and majority rules. I'm okay with that. Arguing that people won't be able to run away more effectively with a travel power, however, is simply absurd. We both know they will, so let's not pretend like they won't. |
I ask because literally nothing you wrote had anything to do with what I said.
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Are you serious? This thread was made in response to the lead community representative expressly asking if we want HD and TS removed. So you think we should not answer and instead ask for new things that cost development time, which is the main excuse the Devs use to NOT work on PvP. |
Originally Posted by Dahjee
Still mute points and repeated opinions... If a PvE'r complains about PvP... we simply tell them that it's not mandatory and to avoid it if they don't like it, but you tell a PvPer that TS/HD is not mandatory and to avoid it if they don't like it... well they go on about how everyone shouldn't have to deal with it based on their own definition of fun... Go figure?
The best argument you all stood to have would've happened back when they allowed the removal of TS and HD in arena (I15?). If every PvPer started and continued playing arena (and ignoring zones) because of the no TS/HD option there... it would be easy to say/prove that everyone, or most everyone prefers those mechanics. However, it's admitted/accepeted that arena/KB is inconsistent day to day while RV/zone (Freedom) is not. Ironically, because I know of most of you all too well... is the fact that if the Devs hadn't added those options to arena until say... I21, most of you all (that stayed) would be the first to call out peeps for demanding those setting to PvP now... having had no choice but to accept the current system...call yourselves awesome, and condemn anyone who prefers to do it differently than you. Going forward, you're best bet is to avoid silly attempts to campaign the removal of 2+ year old mechanics, and instead embrace them so you can suggest additions to the game that may make them bearable for you (i.e. proliferating /Posion and creating Time Manip. instead of nerfing /Regens and adding useful Incarnates instead of nerfing Psy/ Blasters' Damage spikes etc) |
Again, we, as a community, were asked specifically how we would feel about the removal of HD and TS. How is discussing the removal of HD and TS not warranted?
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You do know that TS and HD are mandatory for zone PvP?
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Originally Posted by Dahjee
Still mute points and repeated opinions... If a PvE'r complains about PvP... we simply tell them that it's not mandatory and to avoid it if they don't like it, but you tell a PvPer that TS/HD is not mandatory and to avoid it if they don't like it... well they go on about how everyone shouldn't have to deal with it based on their own definition of fun... Go figure?
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[U][URL="http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthread.php?t=251594"][/URL][/U]
I find it ironic that people complain about i13 and then try to push for i13 V2.0 to hit the game.
I13 arrived, a lot of pvpers didn't like it and quit in droves.
New PVPers came along who liked the changes to replace the old ones.
Now you want the changes reverted so the new PVPers quit in droves?
Wouldn't it just be simpler to ask them to disable pvp and be done with it?
Changing it back isn't going to bring back the old pvpers, it is just going to make a new batch quit.
Two people liking the changes doesn't replace all of the others we've lost.
"the reason there are so many sarcastic pvpers is we already had a better version of pvp taken away from us to appease bad players. Back then we chuckled at how bad players came here and whined. If we knew that was the actual voice devs would listen to instead of informed, educated players we probably would have been bigger dicks back then." -ConFlict
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LoL!|
Originally Posted by Reiraku
Two people liking the changes doesn't replace all of the others we've lost.
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No-one would ever believe you surveyed the game population but if you wanted to pretend you had and have a chance of convincing others as such, you really should pick a more realistic number than two.
The hyperbole does illustrate the sad reality of the pre and post change populations, however.
There's no denying that there are even fewer people PvP'ing now than there was before issue 13 by a large margin.
"the reason there are so many sarcastic pvpers is we already had a better version of pvp taken away from us to appease bad players. Back then we chuckled at how bad players came here and whined. If we knew that was the actual voice devs would listen to instead of informed, educated players we probably would have been bigger dicks back then." -ConFlict
But do you think reverting to pre i13 would bring the lost players back?
PVP in this game has never been anything amazing, pre or post i13. Those lost players have probably discovered how bad the pvp here has been by playing a different mmo with superior pvp mechanics.
I don't think many would return even if you reverted the changes and offered everyone a free kitten upon their return.
Making the changes may have cost more pvpers than it gained but I am confident reverting the changes would also cost more pvpers than it gains.
Actually, it would bring some back. Not all, but some. Very likely as many that would have left due to it changing back. Past that point though, it would also revert back to a system that was more inclusive to newer players with fewer differences between the PvE game and PvP game.
"the reason there are so many sarcastic pvpers is we already had a better version of pvp taken away from us to appease bad players. Back then we chuckled at how bad players came here and whined. If we knew that was the actual voice devs would listen to instead of informed, educated players we probably would have been bigger dicks back then." -ConFlict
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Reverting a set of controversial and almost universally reviled rule changes might not bring back everyone who's quit since I13 but it would bring more old players back than would quit due to the reversion. Generally, people who prefer post-I13 PvP spend their PvP time in zones, and if the system were to be reverted to the old ruleset they might stop PvPing, but probably wouldn't quit the game. That's not a loss for anyone.
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Originally Posted by Giant2005
Making the changes may have cost more pvpers than it gained but I am confident reverting the changes would also cost more pvpers than it gains.
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@macskull, @Not Mac | XBL: macskull | Steam: macskull | Skype: macskull
"One day we all may see each other elsewhere. In Tyria, in Azeroth. We may pass each other and never know it. And that's sad. But if nothing else, we'll still have Rhode Island."
"One day we all may see each other elsewhere. In Tyria, in Azeroth. We may pass each other and never know it. And that's sad. But if nothing else, we'll still have Rhode Island."
I have a problem with TS. Originally it was my understanding that it was implemented for 2 reasons.
1. To prevent jousting.
2. To prevent players from timing jumps or movement in order to avoid rooting or animations.
In its first goal it was successful. It's pretty much impossible to joust. But in the second I consider it a horrible failure.
Rules
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The duration of the movement suppression should be equal to the animation time of the attack or power used. Being attacked shouldn't cause suppression at all. The above rule serves only to slow down the pace of PvP, which was really the most unique aspect of it. |
* All Teleportation and Summonable Teleportals are Disabled while PvP Travel Suppression is active. The Duration of Movement Suppression in PvP is now variable based on the most recent suppression event applicable to the character. In case of multiple events applicable on the same server tick, only the longest value is applied. Suppression events are: Activating a foe TargetedRange (range > 7') damaging Power: 3s * Sum of damage scales. Example1: Power Bolt has a damage Scale of 1.0 (0.1 + 0.9) resulting in a Suppression Duration of 3 seconds. Example2: Power Burst has a damage scale of 2.12 resulting in a Suppression Duration of 6.39 seconds. * Activating a foe Targeted Melee (Range >0' && Range => 7') damaging Power: 2s* Sum of damage scales. Example1: Swipe has a damage scale of 0.76 resulting in a suppression time of 1.52 seconds. Example2: Eviscerate has a damage scale of 1.99 resulting in a suppression time of 3.98 seconds. * Activating a foe targeted Range debuff or control power: 3.5s * Activating a foe targeted Melee debuff or control power: 2.5s * Placing a Location Based Entity: 4s * Activating a self or friend targeted Heal power: 4s * Activating a Friend targeted Buff power: 4s * Being the target of an attack: 2s |
I do hope PvP gets revisited. The current development team seems to be better about setting a goal then finding a way to implement it. More recent changes in the game have been excellent; I hope PvP gets the same (or any) attention.
It's not about catering to former customers. It's about retaining existing customers by improving the product they're already paying for.
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QFT.|
Originally Posted by Xanatos
It's not about catering to former customers. It's about retaining existing customers by improving the product they're already paying for.
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I can say with 100% certainty that I will stop paying money for this game when the current league ends. If TS and HD are removed from zones, I will almost certainly continue paying for it. And this isnt just me making **** up to illustrate a point, I actually will leave in the next month or two if TS/HD aren't removed.
Pretty much that... *We* were asked if we want TS and HD removed. *We* do. We want it for the sake of being able to have fun in Zone PvP again. If it brings player back, great. The more competent players, the more fun to be had.
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You are probably right. Those that have stuck through with the changes whether they prefer them or not have already proven they are less temperamental than those who have previously quit over a game change. I myself would never quit over such an issue.|
Originally Posted by macskull
Reverting a set of controversial and almost universally reviled rule changes might not bring back everyone who's quit since I13 but it would bring more old players back than would quit due to the reversion. Generally, people who prefer post-I13 PvP spend their PvP time in zones, and if the system were to be reverted to the old ruleset they might stop PvPing, but probably wouldn't quit the game. That's not a loss for anyone.
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The only time I have quit a mmo due to game changes was SWG and for obvious reasons.
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That's true regardless of whether or not TS is implemented. Find me some other reason for TS to be off other than for people to run away more effectively in fights, and I might consider it. Right now I just keep getting this same opinionated argument, and the long and short of it is simply that I don't find what you find to be fun, fun. I am certainly willing to listen to other perspectives, but they're going to be opinionated on what you think is fun. I'm not saying you shouldn't ask for what you think is fun. I'm certainly not saying what I think is fun is right. I'm telling you why I don't like the idea of TS being turned off based on what I enjoy. I don't expect any more or less from anyone else. |
Originally Posted by DaveMebs
Glad everyone's willing to listen to other perspectives and make a logical decision.
By the way if you just invite a couple others to your team and toss a hold, you don't have to chase the target. |
What I don't understand is how people are telling me that people running away isn't helped by doing it with un-suppressed superspeed while simultaneously inferring that there is some other use for travel powers that isn't simply greater ability flee during battle. I have a feeling nobody wants to mention any other uses because they might accidently reveal a disparity between melee and ranged powersets when TS is off.
I'm just guessing on that last part, of course~
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You did that stupid 'respond to every other sentence at a time thing to distort the original post' so I decided I would just sum up what I thought you were talking about and respond to it. |
Originally Posted by Xanatos
Did you mean to quote me?
I ask because literally nothing you wrote had anything to do with what I said. |
It's not my fault you have a weird way of replying to people.
Lemme just say, as someone who enjoys PvP in any MMO, that I'm glad there's still some discussion going on.
Everyone knows i13 dealt a major blow to the PvP community. A lotta people quit outright and many of those that remained just said "screw it" and stopped trying to communicate with the Devs about what's good for PvP. Who could blame them? The changes that came about reflect little (At best) of what PvPers wanted.
That being said, I still wanna fight for PvP and I hope you all do as well. The state of this aspect of the game is sorry and that's not ok. Major changes need to be made and, regardless of what the Devs focus may be right now, they won't be unless the PvP community stays VERY vocal. So thanks to the OP and everyone who's commented for keeping some kinda discussion going.
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What about people who took powers that made it harder for people to run away? Web grenades, slows, holds, etc? You know...things that useful players took. (Aka the guys who didn't show up on melee characters with no travel powers and whine about PVP being unbalanced.)
Again, what about people who weren't able to run away because the opposing team had useful powers. (As opposed to a completely useless 1v1 fiteklubbing melee build.)
PVP is still all about chasing each other. It's just SLOWER now.
It is PVP. People still chase each other. That's how 99% of PVP goes down. It's just SLOWER now.
Superspeed/superjump aren't powers? Using web grenades/holds/slows/etc to counter them isn't strategic?
Again: you are still chasing people. TS makes it harder for you to catch them. TS slows you both down and makes PVP less fun to play.
I don't think you have a lot of experience in PVP. Your argument in favour of TS doesn't actually mention what TS ACTUALLY does...it just mentions what it was INTENDED to do. It doesn't make it easier to catch runners, it doesn't make it easier for melee character versus ranged ones. (If anything it makes it harder!)
All TS does is slow down the gameplay and make it even easier to gank people.
Arguing that you like chasing people around is fine and dandy. I can meet that with a simple "fine, but I don't like doing it." Neither one of us is 'right' at that point, and majority rules. I'm okay with that.
Arguing that people won't be able to run away more effectively with a travel power, however, is simply absurd. We both know they will, so let's not pretend like they won't.