On Travel Suppression and Heal Decay
By
Antigonus,
Posted on: 2011-10-13 12:12 in Everything about PvP
Quote:
In PvP, every character has the same "max" speed capabilities, with or without suppression. The difference in whether one catches up or not comes from two other factors, rooting in animation times and movement inhibitors. As it stands right now, one's delta speed with suppression is much lower than if suppression were gone. A melee character can close a gap faster when being attacked due to the lack of suppression than they could otherwise. Slows have been severely neutered, so they aren't much of a factor, immobs only last for a fraction of a second, and hard mezzes are much shorter than before. |
Originally Posted by Warkupo
That's true regardless of whether or not TS is implemented. Find me some other reason for TS to be off other than for people to run away more effectively in fights, and I might consider it. Right now I just keep getting this same opinionated argument, and the long and short of it is simply that I don't find what you find to be fun, fun. I am certainly willing to listen to other perspectives, but they're going to be opinionated on what you think is fun. I'm not saying you shouldn't ask for what you think is fun. I'm certainly not saying what I think is fun is right. I'm telling you why I don't like the idea of TS being turned off based on what I enjoy. I don't expect any more or less from anyone else.
What I don't understand is how people are telling me that people running away isn't helped by doing it with un-suppressed superspeed while simultaneously inferring that there is some other use for travel powers that isn't simply greater ability flee during battle. I have a feeling nobody wants to mention any other uses because they might accidently reveal a disparity between melee and ranged powersets when TS is off. I'm just guessing on that last part, of course~ |
In the previous system, slow effects were considerably more useful, and as such, a viable option to prevent someone from escaping. Even if the movement was faster without suppression, you could stop it in a greater number of ways. That is no longer the case now.
"the reason there are so many sarcastic pvpers is we already had a better version of pvp taken away from us to appease bad players. Back then we chuckled at how bad players came here and whined. If we knew that was the actual voice devs would listen to instead of informed, educated players we probably would have been bigger dicks back then." -ConFlict
A big misconception seems to be the "Zone rules" vs "Arena rules" argument, where people imply that there are two crowds of PvPers who are each good at what they do.
Every time we hop into a PvP zone, suddenly our side (heroes/villains) is camping the other side's base. It's not hard. Travel suppression and HD make it really annoying, but even in i12 I don't remember it being THAT easy to farm all of the zoners.
We just laugh on mumble about how easy it is to kill people with TS and HD, while pooping on the entire zone. Then we laugh more about how bad people are at chasing us even with TS on.
There's no "Zone PvP community vs Arena community" feud. It's been a time proven fact that regardless of rules, WARE.gov is better than anyone else.
TS and HD are terrible.
More arena maps, please.
/thread.
We've become complacent. Every since i13 hit all I have heard is complaining and complaining. This time how about we actually organize PVPers to join the forums and start posting on the subject of PVP so we can get a majority opinion.
When you're in zone/arena chat, let people know. Tell them to go to the forums and comment on such an important subject.
We were supposed to get PVP changes i21...well i21 has come and gone. Go figure.
Even PVEers think we as a PVP community do not exist. We are better organized than any of them. Put it to better use...
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because thats happened before and doesn't matter? we can organize an put lists together and do whatever else organized things do. it won't make a difference. we've already done, afew times now, and the bottom line is, it'll get done when the devs want to get it done. the devs don't want to, and probably never will want to, get it done in a correct fashion.|
Originally Posted by AresSupreme
We've become complacent. Every since i13 hit all I have heard is complaining and complaining. This time how about we actually organize PVPers to join the forums and start posting on the subject of PVP so we can get a majority opinion.
When you're in zone/arena chat, let people know. Tell them to go to the forums and comment on such an important subject. We were supposed to get PVP changes i21...well i21 has come and gone. Go figure. Even PVEers think we as a PVP community do not exist. We are better organized than any of them. Put it to better use... |
there is not much point in yelling and screaming, no matter how correct it is, when it falls on deaf ears.
Positron's i13 letter: We are trying to make PvP more accessible to new players, while giving experienced PvP'ers the advantage that comes with formulating tactics around the new systems we're putting in place. PvP from now on will be on our priority list. If something isn't working out, we'll be in there tweaking it and making it work, for the entire future of the product, not just Issue 13.
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It sounds like you don't like the idea of chasing people, and if you had to, then it would be less fun for you, which is why you want TS to stay in place. My point is that if they removed TS, all you would need to do is get a couple teammates together, and attack at the same time. It's pretty easy, and almost always results in a kill.|
Originally Posted by Warkupo
That's true regardless of whether or not TS is implemented. Find me some other reason for TS to be off other than for people to run away more effectively in fights, and I might consider it. Right now I just keep getting this same opinionated argument, and the long and short of it is simply that I don't find what you find to be fun, fun. I am certainly willing to listen to other perspectives, but they're going to be opinionated on what you think is fun. I'm not saying you shouldn't ask for what you think is fun. I'm certainly not saying what I think is fun is right. I'm telling you why I don't like the idea of TS being turned off based on what I enjoy. I don't expect any more or less from anyone else.
|
If you were to do so, then you would be happy because you wouldn't need to chase people, and we would be happy because TS would be gone.
In fact, the lack of TS would naturally make you a better player. Rather than running around solo throwing damage on targets that are low, you're working with teammates to lock on the same target. Chances are you'd get more kills this way as well, boosting your fun level even higher.
On a side note, while there is a disagreement between one guy and the rest of the PvP population, it sounds like it is universally accepted that Heal Decay should be turned off. Haven't seen a single post claiming HD should be left in place.
I guess hatred for Heal Decay is the one thing that can truly unite people.
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I don't hate heal decay.|
Originally Posted by DaveMebs
On a side note, while there is a disagreement between one guy and the rest of the PvP population, it sounds like it is universally accepted that Heal Decay should be turned off. Haven't seen a single post claiming HD should be left in place.
I guess hatred for Heal Decay is the one thing that can truly unite people. |
I play in a /pain Duo and it already takes 5 or more to kill us unless we screw up. If we are allowed to spam heals as we please, we aren't going to die ever.
When we aren't dying ever, how long before everyone else does the same thing and it becomes a waste of endurance to launch an attack?
Edit: Just thought I'd ask, why do you want it turned off?
That's only because in the screwed up current meta no one builds for team tactics. Killing or harassing support is what SHOULD be a big part of the tactics and honestly anyone who thinks you can't spike out an emp/thermal/whatever without the I13 changes is dead wrong though it does (and SHOULD) take a coordinated spike OR some kind of control/interrupt.
Thorizdin
Lords of the Dead
Old School Legends
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I remember when cagers were viable. Absolutely hilarious watching the Emps rage uselessly while they sit and watch their Blasters die to spikes.|
Originally Posted by Thorizdin_LotD
That's only because in the screwed up current meta no one builds for team tactics. Killing or harassing support is what SHOULD be a big part of the tactics and honestly anyone who thinks you can't spike out an emp/thermal/whatever without the I13 changes is dead wrong though it does (and SHOULD) take a coordinated spike OR some kind of control/interrupt.
|
Fun times.
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this is really sad. so sick of being shiested as a PVP community as if we dont friggin exist. getting old...|
Originally Posted by PC_guy
because thats happened before and doesn't matter? we can organize an put lists together and do whatever else organized things do. it won't make a difference. we've already done, afew times now, and the bottom line is, it'll get done when the devs want to get it done. the devs don't want to, and probably never will want to, get it done in a correct fashion.
there is not much point in yelling and screaming, no matter how correct it is, when it falls on deaf ears. |
in a world where a single scrapper power does twice as much as all others across the board ugh...
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You would never die? That's funny.
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Originally Posted by Giant2005
I don't hate heal decay.
I play in a /pain Duo and it already takes 5 or more to kill us unless we screw up. If we are allowed to spam heals as we please, we aren't going to die ever. When we aren't dying ever, how long before everyone else does the same thing and it becomes a waste of endurance to launch an attack? Edit: Just thought I'd ask, why do you want it turned off? |
[U][URL="http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthread.php?t=251594"][/URL][/U]
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Not in any kind of reasonable situation. 75% resists, 150hp/sec regen, and a 800hp heal every second?|
Originally Posted by Fiery-Enforcer
You would never die? That's funny.
|
You would have to do 3800 DPS to scratch me, you would have to do significantly more to be a genuine threat.
I don't want Heal Decay removed.
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OORRRR!!! you'd have to be a debuffer...I slaughter Pain doms every day on my rad then show up to their funeral...|
Originally Posted by Giant2005
Not in any kind of reasonable situation. 75% resists, 150hp/sec regen, and a 800hp heal every second?
You would have to do 3800 DPS to scratch me, you would have to do significantly more to be a genuine threat. I don't want Heal Decay removed. |
Their biggest thing is their regen. Lingering rad takes care of that. I'm sure there are colds and poisons that can do it ever better. Problem solved.
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A 500% regen debuff would hardly touch the sides... with 50% DDR and 2000% regen, you would drop that 2000% to 1750% which is a negligable difference. You would be dead before you tried for a second application.|
Originally Posted by AresSupreme
OORRRR!!! you'd have to be a debuffer...I slaughter Pain doms every day on my rad then show up to their funeral...
Their biggest thing is their regen. Lingering rad takes care of that. I'm sure there are colds and poisons that can do it ever better. Problem solved. |
Regardless, this is not a thread about who has the biggest E-Peen, so let's keep this civil and constructive.
Even if you got bugged and your Lingering Radiation was enough to get rid of the entirety of the Pain's regen, you are still looking at an 800hp heal every second. with 0% regen it would still take 3200 DPS to start scratching the surface.
Sure you can also bring someone along that can debuff the ability to heal (very few powersets can do this and a major part of Heal Decay's implementation was to remove the requirement of having that perfect team for success), you can also bring some resist debuffs. The reason I don't want Heal Decay removed is because it is absurd to require such an army. Sure as a Pain, I'd benefit from it's removal more than most but I wantt to be able to log in, jump in RV and have fun. I don't want to have to spend an hour forming the perfect team with all the tools required to neuter healers and for that matter, runners.
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These numbers are absurd. Where the hell do you get 2000% regen? 800 HP heal every second (With Heal Decay). Make stuff up better. Are you a friggin Giant Monster?|
Originally Posted by Giant2005
A 500% regen debuff would hardly touch the sides... with 50% DDR and 2000% regen, you would drop that 2000% to 1750% which is a negligable difference. You would be dead before you tried for a second application.
Regardless, this is not a thread about who has the biggest E-Peen, so let's keep this civil and constructive. Even if you got bugged and your Lingering Radiation was enough to get rid of the entirety of the Pain's regen, you are still looking at an 800hp heal every second. with 0% regen it would still take 3200 DPS to start scratching the surface. Sure you can also bring someone along that can debuff the ability to heal (very few powersets can do this and a major part of Heal Decay's implementation was to remove the requirement of having that perfect team for success), you can also bring some resist debuffs. The reason I don't want Heal Decay removed is because it is absurd to require such an army. Sure as a Pain, I'd benefit from it's removal more than most but I wantt to be able to log in, jump in RV and have fun. I don't want to have to spend an hour forming the perfect team with all the tools required to neuter healers and for that matter, runners. |
I alone can kill a Pain Dom. If you are talking 2x Pain doms then I with a blaster could kill a pain dom. Blasters are a dime a dozen. Please explain these numbers because they are psychotic.
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if you read my posts then the answer would be apparant. Don't quote me and say random things with insults if you haven't read the content.|
Originally Posted by AresSupreme
These numbers are absurd. Where the hell do you get 2000% regen? 800 HP heal every second (With Heal Decay). Make stuff up better. Are you a friggin Giant Monster?
I alone can kill a Pain Dom. If you are talking 2x Pain doms then I with a blaster could kill a pain dom. Blasters are a dime a dozen. Please explain these numbers because they are psychotic. |
Firstly, yes as I mentioned my Pain Dom is part of a /pain duo.
Secondly, the 800HP per second was mentioned as an outcome of removing Heal Decay and an argument against it. Of course it is impossible to do that now.
Again, I can't stress this enough, please read the posts before saying such absurdities and even more importantly, don't insult other posters. PVP already has a bad name in coh, we need to keep things civil and show the playerbase that we are not pricks if we expect pvp to ever be more popular than it is.
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Once again you ignore what I write and just use me as a soap box to rant.|
Originally Posted by Warkupo
You did that stupid 'respond to every other sentence at a time thing to distort the original post' so I decided I would just sum up what I thought you were talking about and respond to it.
It's not my fault you have a weird way of replying to people. |
Learn how to communicate. Please.
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Seems like you didn't factor in DR at all. You have no where near 75% resistance.
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Originally Posted by Giant2005
Not in any kind of reasonable situation. 75% resists, 150hp/sec regen, and a 800hp heal every second?
You would have to do 3800 DPS to scratch me, you would have to do significantly more to be a genuine threat. I don't want Heal Decay removed. |
[U][URL="http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthread.php?t=251594"][/URL][/U]
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Those numbers are worthless because that would mean DR would be turned off. No one runs with DR off because stupid **** like that is the norm rather than the exception. Capped resists and high regen weren't a big deal before because there were unresisted debuffs and unresisted damage and the mez system had a meaningful impact on the outcome of a fight - I've seen Fire Blasters rip through Fire Brutes with capped fire resists at frightening speeds.|
Originally Posted by Giant2005
Not in any kind of reasonable situation. 75% resists, 150hp/sec regen, and a 800hp heal every second?
You would have to do 3800 DPS to scratch me, you would have to do significantly more to be a genuine threat. I don't want Heal Decay removed. |
In a zone situation, the character you speak of would probably die to a solo Blaster provided that Blaster isn't a complete idiot. Removing heal decay simply means the Blaster would have to work harder or have a teammate or two to help him out. I don't want to be handed kills by the system, I want to earn them. Likewise, I don't want to die because the system thinks I should, but rather because I've been outsmarted or outplayed. Introducing game mechanics to force resolution to conflicts that should be entirely decided by player skill was a terrible idea when it happened, and it's still a terrible idea three years later.
@macskull, @Not Mac | XBL: macskull | Steam: macskull | Skype: macskull
"One day we all may see each other elsewhere. In Tyria, in Azeroth. We may pass each other and never know it. And that's sad. But if nothing else, we'll still have Rhode Island."
"One day we all may see each other elsewhere. In Tyria, in Azeroth. We may pass each other and never know it. And that's sad. But if nothing else, we'll still have Rhode Island."
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I didn't ignore what you wrote, I called everything you wrote stupid. |
Originally Posted by Xanatos
Once again you ignore what I write and just use me as a soap box to rant.
Learn how to communicate. Please. |
Totally not ignoring you at all, love~
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Like I said; learn to communicate.
|
Originally Posted by Warkupo
I called everything you wrote stupid.
|
I've noticed one scary thing:
Literally everyone in favor of TS/HD doesn't understand how they work.
That INCLUDES the dev team.
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What is it about PVP that people automatically assume everyone who doesn't like to play it the way they do is automatically an inferior player? I didn't say I *can't* chase people around with a travel power, or that I don't know how to use a temp power from a vendor (I'm not sure how using web grenade would be hard for anyone, really), I'm merely stating that I don't *like* to do these things. They are not enjoyable for me.|
Originally Posted by DaveMebs
It sounds like you don't like the idea of chasing people, and if you had to, then it would be less fun for you, which is why you want TS to stay in place. My point is that if they removed TS, all you would need to do is get a couple teammates together, and attack at the same time. It's pretty easy, and almost always results in a kill.
If you were to do so, then you would be happy because you wouldn't need to chase people, and we would be happy because TS would be gone. In fact, the lack of TS would naturally make you a better player. Rather than running around solo throwing damage on targets that are low, you're working with teammates to lock on the same target. Chances are you'd get more kills this way as well, boosting your fun level even higher. |
I do appreciate you trying to meet me half-way, but I really want to know *why* it's so important that TS is removed if it doesn't, as is being claimed in this thread, change game-play in any reasonable fashion? If it's simply because you find it more fun, that'd be fine, we could just disagree on what is fun and that'd be the end of it. Unfortunately, I just can't buy that as the only reason people want TS removed, because that's not the emotion I am reading in this forum.
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Same to you, 'bud.
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Originally Posted by Xanatos
Like I said; learn to communicate.
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those are just afew off the top of my head.
also if they remove TS and also fix how slows and mez work, you're then able to bring back a use for ATs that have slows and mez and you now have a reason to bring them onto your team. which ironically, was the entire point of i13 and why it failed so hard.
basically the only point you've conveyed about keeping TS in is that you don't like chasing people in fights. alright, fine. neither does anyone else. thats why you get someone on your team that can lock them down so you aren't chasing people around the map. post i13 that doesn't exist. the closest thing you have is webnades to get the -jump and -fly but thats a hollow shell of what it was/should be. it's a very simple concept that i honestly can't understand why you wrap your mind around.
Positron's i13 letter: We are trying to make PvP more accessible to new players, while giving experienced PvP'ers the advantage that comes with formulating tactics around the new systems we're putting in place. PvP from now on will be on our priority list. If something isn't working out, we'll be in there tweaking it and making it work, for the entire future of the product, not just Issue 13.