On Travel Suppression and Heal Decay
By
Antigonus,
Posted on: 2011-10-13 12:12 in Everything about PvP
Quote:
If you really think getting kills with no HD/no TS is hard than you clearly did not zone before i13, because I did and people died as much as they do now, but people actually had to work for kills more than they do now.|
Originally Posted by Dahjee
That doesn't hold up. If you're enemy knows that there is no where safe to go like a base, then their entire playstyle can be vastly different than if they know that there is indeed a drone to hide behind. I don't see how one can even begin to think that the screenies put up as proof indicate anything substantial in terms of what removing TS and HD from zones would do. Especially because in my humble opinion... most perpectives revolve around ss/sj'ers. A person might easily think that getting kills in an open zone without TS and HD would be as viable than with TSand HD in tact... but I'd bet those same peeps never came across a good teleporter before I13 in a zone.
Ahhh. the good ol'days. TP and a handful of greens = lol no I won't die to the 16 of you because I've TP'ed and popped green insp 700ft away in only just a few seconds. If I remember correctly. People were advocating the suppression of TP in some form or another long before I13 came around. They were doing so for good reason... and I say that as an avid TP/Fly PvP'er. At best removing these two mechanics would just allow peeps to respec out of phase and Hibernoob. Simply because they'd get away as easily as they do having those "type of powers" now. BTW this point is brought to you by a much more subtle point... So I ask humbly and with ALL due respect... someone to share your thoughts to this question: If removing HD and TS woulde not greatly increase the survivability and ability to evade in zones... then why exactly is it almost universialy suggested to have phase and/or Hibernate in a PvP build post-I13? I come from a school when then the best of the best were those that laughed at peeps for taking and /or needing them... only to watch what became the best of the best cherish these powers and condemn anyone who called them a "crutch." |
Also, are you trying to say that people should be forced into an escape power to zone PvP? Because that's what it looks like.
People have been explaining throughout this whole thread why removing TS/HD would not making killing people in zone substantially harder, people would just have to change their tactics from, "How can I keep this guy in TS?" to "How can I keep this guy in range and how can I most effectively defeat him, and if need be how can I limit his ability to recieve support?"
I'm much more in favor of people needing to consider more than how they can keep someone in TS. Keeping people TS'd is very easy and really takes no thought. With TS off, people would have to consider a lot more when trying to kill somebody.
At this point, if you truly believe nobody has made any valid points other than you, than you are not even worth arguing with. All you have done in my eyes is establish over and over again how little experience you have PvPing in this game, how little you understand the PvP system in this game, and that you have no idea what this game was like before i13 mechanics were introduced, particularly TS/HD, and at the same time remain ignorant to the idea that you might not know what you're talking about.
@TheKatalyst
My **** is bleeding.
Back on topic, yes, remove Travel Suppression and Heal Decay, thanks.
@TheKatalyst
My **** is bleeding.
Dahjee,
Genuine question. Not trolling:
What would it take, in your eyes, for us to prove you wrong?
What would we need to show you? What would make you change your mind?
Quote:
Killed plenty who tried this and anyone who though TP needed adjustment either didn't hunt in a pack or didn't know how to spike worth anything. Doesn't take 16 by a long shot, more like 3 people on target.
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Originally Posted by Dahjee
Ahhh. the good ol'days. TP and a handful of greens = lol no I won't die to the 16 of you because I've TP'ed and popped green insp 700ft away in only just a few seconds.
If I remember correctly. People were advocating the suppression of TP in some form or another long before I13 came around. They were doing so for good reason... and I say that as an avid TP/Fly PvP'er. |
Thorizdin
Lords of the Dead
Old School Legends
Quote:
Team arena builds have almost always had a phase power. That's been true since before I13. Most duel builds didn't, but these days you see plenty of people with Hiber/Phase but that's partly due to the proliferation of Hibernate and partly due to emphasis being placed more on simple damage output than aggressive, intelligent play and good inspiration management.| I come from a school when then the best of the best were those that laughed at peeps for taking and /or needing them... only to watch what became the best of the best cherish these powers and condemn anyone who called them a "crutch." |
Many zone players pre-I13 took some sort of phase power in their builds, but the "best of the best" as you call them laughed because you didn't really need one in a zone situation provided you had good situational awareness and were good at evading. I almost never died on my Scrapper, MM, Emp, or Rad, and none of them had phase powers. Situational awareness is still important in post-I13 zone PvP, but the value of knowing how to evade is nearly nonexistent because most of the time you can't evade.
If TS and HD are removed in zones it'll give small teams a chance against the people who are camping their base, and zone PvP will stop being a boring, predictable ***********.
Remove TS, remove HD, and reduce or remove global resists, and you've taken a few rather big steps to fixing the most glaring problems with post-I13 PvP. It's when you start to make changes after that point where things can't be added or removed piecemeal.
@macskull, @Not Mac | XBL: macskull | Steam: macskull | Skype: macskull
"One day we all may see each other elsewhere. In Tyria, in Azeroth. We may pass each other and never know it. And that's sad. But if nothing else, we'll still have Rhode Island."
"One day we all may see each other elsewhere. In Tyria, in Azeroth. We may pass each other and never know it. And that's sad. But if nothing else, we'll still have Rhode Island."
Honestly I remember people instantly tping away and it was friggin annoying. TP def needed to be adjusted, but NOTHING else travel wise. The animation times speak for themselves...
Quote:
Hey I'm just pointing out contradictions is all. You forgot to address any of them by the way. I asked why do you think Phase and Hiber are required in PvP builds now... if not to ease and allow more effective evasion under post I13 mechanics. I asked you to consider the effects of unsuppressed teleportation without TS/HD in a zone, and I pointed out that playstyle/enviroment has a greater effect than mechanics in regards to kill count in arena versus zone.|
Originally Posted by _Velociteh_
If you really think getting kills with no HD/no TS is hard than you clearly did not zone before i13, because I did and people died as much as they do now, but people actually had to work for kills more than they do now.
Also, are you trying to say that people should be forced into an escape power to zone PvP? Because that's what it looks like. People have been explaining throughout this whole thread why removing TS/HD would not making killing people in zone substantially harder, people would just have to change their tactics from, "How can I keep this guy in TS?" to "How can I keep this guy in range and how can I most effectively defeat him, and if need be how can I limit his ability to recieve support?" I'm much more in favor of people needing to consider more than how they can keep someone in TS. Keeping people TS'd is very easy and really takes no thought. With TS off, people would have to consider a lot more when trying to kill somebody. At this point, if you truly believe nobody has made any valid points other than you, than you are not even worth arguing with. All you have done in my eyes is establish over and over again how little experience you have PvPing in this game, how little you understand the PvP system in this game, and that you have no idea what this game was like before i13 mechanics were introduced, particularly TS/HD, and at the same time remain ignorant to the idea that you might not know what you're talking about. |
I don't think I talked about anything you just brought up. Nothing is hard in this game by the way.
"Situational power? Sure. Although in a sense... all powers are situational. It's just that some situations occur more than others." Understand the situation needed in order for the power to be most effective... and make that situation happen.
Not that I want to get involved in the back and forth part of this thread, but, just as a quick fact check:
Phase/Hiber have been a requirement for Team Arena PvP since it existed - at one point, blasters took both.
No one regarded as "good" ever called for a nerf of TP because of zoners using it to escape... or at all for that matter.
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Pretty much everything you are saying is just words on a screen but no underlying meaning. People use teleport in arena 8v8s as well.. they still die... just ask Condro.
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Originally Posted by Dahjee
Hey I'm just pointing out contradictions is all. You forgot to address any of them by the way. I asked why do you think Phase and Hiber are required in PvP builds now... if not to ease and allow more effective evasion under post I13 mechanics. I asked you to consider the effects of unsuppressed teleportation without TS/HD in a zone, and I pointed out that playstyle/enviroment has a greater effect than mechanics in regards to kill count in arena versus zone.
I don't think I talked about anything you just brought up. Nothing is hard in this game by the way. |
I asked why do you think Phase and Hiber are required in PvP builds now... if not to ease and allow more effective evasion under post I13 mechanics.
Everyone here forgets now about people saying after I13 it became "neccessary to have an escape power" like phase or hibernate due to I13 mechanics? Really? Just as many peeps today with those powers as before I13 right? C'mon people... it just takes looking here on the PvP boards at just about every build suggested in the last 3 years to know better. I think the problem here is that if you say to me that yes, escape powers are needed in zones today due to I13 mechanics... you'd be admitting that it's harder to evade without them. This would of course be blamed on TS and HD... but no one here wants to admit that removing TS and HD will make it easier to evade in a zone. Simply baffling.
I pointed out that one's playstyle/enviroment has a greater effect than mechanics in regards to kill count when pvping in arena versus pvping in a zone, but no responses so far to that one... but I'm still supposed to consider screenshots of arena matches as proof that removing HD and TS in arena will yield the same results when applied to a zone. Guys I don't think I'm the only one who's not buying it.
Quote:
So you are saying that in PvP's current version... PvP'ers have taken a "Phase or Die" approach to zone pvp in which without a phase power evasion is nearly impossible, and with a phase power evasion is... more possible... easier? That's what I'm saying too. Without TS and HD people in zones would not have to rely on these powers as much due to the fact that they would not be suppressed, the fact that they could spam heals, and they could evade better and die less. At the same time however, this all implies that with TS and HD in tact as it is today... PvP requires better tactics than before, better strategies than before, better insp management than before, more situational awareness than before, more skill than before, and a greater knowledge of how to evade than required before I13. In it's current form PvP also requires one to first reduce their emphasis on simple damage output to recognize and/or accept the above statements as true. (I bolded yours to make mine: See Points)|
Originally Posted by macskull
Team arena builds have almost always had a phase power. That's been true since before I13. Most duel builds didn't, but these days you see plenty of people with Hiber/Phase but that's partly due to the proliferation of Hibernate and partly due to emphasis being placed more on simple damage output than aggressive, intelligent play and good inspiration management.
Many zone players pre-I13 took some sort of phase power in their builds, but the "best of the best" as you call them laughed because you didn't really need one in a zone situation provided you had good situational awareness and were good at evading. I almost never died on my Scrapper, MM, Emp, or Rad, and none of them had phase powers. Situational awareness is still important in post-I13 zone PvP, but the value of knowing how to evade is nearly nonexistent because most of the time you can't evade. |
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Originally Posted by Thorizdin_LotD
Killed plenty who tried this and anyone who though TP needed adjustment either didn't hunt in a pack or didn't know how to spike worth anything. Doesn't take 16 by a long shot, more like 3 people on target.
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Originally Posted by Xanatos
What would it take, in your eyes, for us to prove you wrong?
What would we need to show you? What would make you change your mind? |
"Situational power? Sure. Although in a sense... all powers are situational. It's just that some situations occur more than others." Understand the situation needed in order for the power to be most effective... and make that situation happen.
Dahjee,
Genuine question. Not trolling:
What would it take, in your eyes, for us to prove you wrong?
What would we need to show you? What would make you change your mind?
Quote:
!!
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Originally Posted by Xanatos
Dahjee,
Genuine question. Not trolling: What would it take, in your eyes, for us to prove you wrong? What would we need to show you? What would make you change your mind? |
ugh can't believe i'm feeding but whatevs
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no one is not saying that. that is exactly what we are saying. thats the entire point of this thread. removal of TS (not so much HD) would imporve evading and overall increase the speed of pvp. period. | Everyone here forgets now about people saying after I13 it became "neccessary to have an escape power" like phase or hibernate due to I13 mechanics? Really? Just as many peeps today with those powers as before I13 right? C'mon people... it just takes looking here on the PvP boards at just about every build suggested in the last 3 years to know better. I think the problem here is that if you say to me that yes, escape powers are needed in zones today due to I13 mechanics... you'd be admitting that it's harder to evade without them. This would of course be blamed on TS and HD... but no one here wants to admit that removing TS and HD will make it easier to evade in a zone. Simply baffling. |
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| Without TS and HD people in zones would not have to rely on these powers as much due to the fact that they would not be suppressed, the fact that they could spam heals, and they could evade better and die less. At the same time however, this all implies that with TS and HD in tact as it is today... PvP requires better tactics than before, better strategies than before, better insp management than before, more situational awareness than before, more skill than before, and a greater knowledge of how to evade than required before I13. |
simplier =! better
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| In it's current form PvP also requires one to first reduce their emphasis on simple damage output to recognize and/or accept the above statements as true. |
Positron's i13 letter: We are trying to make PvP more accessible to new players, while giving experienced PvP'ers the advantage that comes with formulating tactics around the new systems we're putting in place. PvP from now on will be on our priority list. If something isn't working out, we'll be in there tweaking it and making it work, for the entire future of the product, not just Issue 13.
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Of course turning off TS and HD makes it easier to evade, nobody has said otherwise. And in case you didn't notice, Phase/Hiber is taken by everybody in arena PvP so I really don't see the point in discussing that. It's just that it's more needed in zone PvP.|
Originally Posted by Dahjee
I don't know what I'm talking about.
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Also, please stop implying that TS and HD require more tactics, you're wrong.
Better inspiration management? No, because all inspirations except greens are pretty much useless. Even those are useless in zone because of the mechanics. It doesn't take much management when you don't want to use any in the first place. Better stratagies? No, the only stratagies in zone are damage spamming a target until they die and droning. More skill? No, again damage spamming a target while keeping them TS'ed isn't hard or skillful at all. Greater knowledge of how to evade? No, you evade pretty much the same way except 10000x slower and less effectively. It's just now people accept they're just going to die when there's more than one person attacking you keeping you TS'ed.
By supporting TS and HD, you're admitting that you're too bad to get any kills with them off.
Once again, I'm sorry. It's fatter than ever now!
[U][URL="http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthread.php?t=251594"][/URL][/U]
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But really.. the things you say are so nonsensical, it's not possible to believe that you are not trolling. Go away; you are clogging my thread. |
Originally Posted by Dahjee's Logic
Since 2 + 2 = 7, I am a genius!!
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So far 3 posters have stated that they are opposed to removing TS and HD. One of them is a confirmed troll, and none of the three have an in-depth understanding of CoH PvP or its mechanics. Is there anyone with a legitimate reason why TS and HD should not be removed?
Yes I want the developers to remove Travel Suppression and Heal Decay. I was finally becoming decent at PvP when these new mechanics rolled in and in my humble opinion sucked the fun out of PvP.
Travel Suppression was one of the primary reasons why CoX PvP was fun. There were then ways to lock down, snare, targets for melee types to wail upon, and there are even more now with the proliferation of -fly, -jump powers like web grenade, air superiority and others. (arguably the inclusion of fitness for free allows people to take a utility power like air superiority or web grenade more easily).
Heal Decay is clunky to me. It falls particularly hard on some sets and not on others. Before Travel Suppression, the way to deal with an empath was maneuver, teleport foe, knock back, mezz effects, or bring lots of friends and just burn through it.
I've played other PvP systems where one character can heal another, and the PvP is still competitive because you can either "pressure" the healer, that is put out so much damage across targets over time that it exhausts the healer's healing resources, or "spike" hit a single target with such a large amount of damage in a short enough time period that the healer can't apply their available resources fast enough. They also have the standard tactics of maneuvering the target out of range/los with the healer, mezz effects, etc.
I think a better solution may have been to look at the endurance costs and/or recharge time of healing powers, so that while a healer type might be able to blunt 1 or 2 spikes, but they couldn't do it indefinitely.
I think a healer should be able to blunt some spikes on occassion. It's fun for me. But they shouldn't be able to do it all the time. Instead with Heal Decay, you have healers that perform more "maintenance" with respect to their healing powers, i.e. topping folks off, rather than the more dramatic and emotionally satisfying clutch save.
I'm not sure if the whole "so I go clipped by some empath rocking heal aura for very little, and so now my healing flames does 1/8 of what it should" was ever resolved, but it seems harsh to punish a player for the "helpful" actions of another.
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I like this kid.|
Originally Posted by Not_Quite_Even
Yes I want the developers to remove Travel Suppression and Heal Decay. I was finally becoming decent at PvP when these new mechanics rolled in and in my humble opinion sucked the fun out of PvP.
Travel Suppression was one of the primary reasons why CoX PvP was fun. There were then ways to lock down, snare, targets for melee types to wail upon, and there are even more now with the proliferation of -fly, -jump powers like web grenade, air superiority and others. (arguably the inclusion of fitness for free allows people to take a utility power like air superiority or web grenade more easily). Heal Decay is clunky to me. It falls particularly hard on some sets and not on others. Before Travel Suppression, the way to deal with an empath was maneuver, teleport foe, knock back, mezz effects, or bring lots of friends and just burn through it. I've played other PvP systems where one character can heal another, and the PvP is still competitive because you can either "pressure" the healer, that is put out so much damage across targets over time that it exhausts the healer's healing resources, or "spike" hit a single target with such a large amount of damage in a short enough time period that the healer can't apply their available resources fast enough. They also have the standard tactics of maneuvering the target out of range/los with the healer, mezz effects, etc. I think a better solution may have been to look at the endurance costs and/or recharge time of healing powers, so that while a healer type might be able to blunt 1 or 2 spikes, but they couldn't do it indefinitely. I think a healer should be able to blunt some spikes on occassion. It's fun for me. But they shouldn't be able to do it all the time. Instead with Heal Decay, you have healers that perform more "maintenance" with respect to their healing powers, i.e. topping folks off, rather than the more dramatic and emotionally satisfying clutch save. I'm not sure if the whole "so I go clipped by some empath rocking heal aura for very little, and so now my healing flames does 1/8 of what it should" was ever resolved, but it seems harsh to punish a player for the "helpful" actions of another. |
Also.. shut up Dahjee. You continue to make yourself look foolish. While it's entertaining for a while, it gets tired. Now shoo. Shoo!
"His Imperial Majesty's Minister of Restraints and Leather" -LHF
Two naughty acronym teams / Ascension / Convenient / Artic and the Chillz / Fap / Other teams I can't remember (sorry.. mind is goin')
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Calling someone a troll is trolling, stop trolling trolls because that also makes you a troll, and now that I have accused you of trolling, I am now also a troll! The cycle never ends until someone breaks it.|
Originally Posted by hemmingway3
But really.. the things you say are so nonsensical, it's not possible to believe that you are not trolling. Go away; you are clogging my thread.
So far 3 posters have stated that they are opposed to removing TS and HD. One of them is a confirmed troll, and none of the three have an in-depth understanding of CoH PvP or its mechanics. Is there anyone with a legitimate reason why TS and HD should not be removed? |
Also, yes, I was told by Mod 13 that calling someone a troll is considered a form of trolling on the CoH Forums, and yes, the word troll is explicitly included in the ToS for the CoH Forums.
That guy who posted above Smoke is the first person to make an intelligent argument in this thread since Dahjee came in and hijacked it.
@TheKatalyst
My **** is bleeding.
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I actually did indirectly address all of your questions, I basically stated that by supporting i13 you support zoners being forced into phase/hiber builds. I didn't address Teleportation because that was never an issue that people cared about back then anyways. Not many people used Teleport, or as you said in your own words, were good at it. So once again, you are supporting the dumbing down of the value of skill.|
Originally Posted by Dahjee
Hey, I'm just pointing out that in order for me to understand a point, it needs to be laid out for me in a completely literal fashion, because I don't understand how this game works but act like I do!
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All of your concerns were addressed. And yes, the result of removing TS and HD would be an increase in survivability for people, POTENTIALLY. Good evaders thrived under pre-i13 mechanics, as did smart offensive players. Post-i13, those people really can't utilize their ability as long as those abilities don't really make a big difference. TS/HD manages to destroy the effectiveness of good evasion or smart offense.
No, this game is not incredibly difficult, yet people like you continue to support the homogenization of skill levels so that the bad players can keep up with the good players even though that doesn't really make any sense.
Also, playstyle is influenced MOST by game mechanics, and I think that's what you are failing to understand. People emphasize heavy amounts of damage because it's what works best in PvP. It's always kind of been that way, but since squishies don't benefit from buffs other than damage/tohit buffs anymore, it eliminates the need for most buffers. That's why Emps are the only real support you see in 8v8 anymore. Disruption is limited to a few specific setups, in terms of equal effectiveness. Even then, disruption is, for the most part, very simple. It really doesn't vary much. The reason why damage spam is the most popular/most effective method of killing things in a zone is because all you have to do to keep something TS'd is to attack it, so people just spam attacks to make sure the target can't evade, which is why phase/hiber are the only truly viable methods of avoiding spikes in zone PvP.
Don't get me wrong, pre-i13 PvP was pretty broken, but at least it made sense. Most toons played different roles that were often more important than just damage. Most of those roles have been rendered useless because of i13 mechanics. It's not just TS/HD that do this, but they do happen to dumb down what little skill is left in PvPing in this game.
I guess if you enjoy a game where the scope of viable winning tactics and builds is very small and unvaried, than this system is fine for you. For most of us, we are tired of it, and really miss how the old system at least had some variety, despite that it was pretty broken.
'
You are welcome to your opinion that post-i13 is more fun for you, that's fine. You are disputing what are actually facts and claiming that they are based on opinion. You are arguing with people that know the mechanics of PvP very well, and understand why i13 and beyond limits what is viable vs. pre-i13. Quite frankly, it's very justifiable to say that you are wrong in a lot of your statements, not just from a standpoint of opinion, but from a standpoint of logic, experience, and more or less, facts.
Anyways, I promised myself that I was done with this discussion, but I want to see if that is an elaborate enough explanation of the positions I stand with, and most PvPers stand with in some manner.
I probably forgot to touch on why HD is bad, but I think that has been touched on as much as TS, and would probably require me to write another 3 paragraphs that would really just restate what everyone else has been saying against HD but in such a way that Dahjee might be able to understand because he's kind of dumb.
@TheKatalyst
My **** is bleeding.
Morning all.
Here's the thing. I'm trying to help you all with your quest. I'm trying to show you why what you whine and complain about has no merit whatsoever.... because it sounds stupid, emotional, illogical and untested. All you really have to do is take two steps back... take the emotion off your shoulders, listen, question, absorb something in your thoughts that wasn't there yesterday and the day, week, or year before... and try to understand. Most people in the world would do this when they repeatedly try to do something in the same way or fashion and remain unsuccessful. However being the CoX PvP'ers you all are... the outspoken among us think very differently. "We complained then... we'll complain now... we'll complain Forevah!!! because we're CoX PvP'ers... and eventually we'll get what we want!" Really? It's stupid. fortunately though It's not all your fault. Sorry to say but egos have a way of bringing out the stupid in all of us. (That last sentence btw way was on point but also given to give my haters something to snip-n-post)
Who in the world wants to accept the advice or suggestions from someone on how to improve something when they have never wanted, enjoyed, or adjusted to it. Keep in mind I said "adjusted" not adapted... which is all that has occurred since I13 by most of the people against I13 mechanics... Adaptation. Easy for min/maxers, PvPers, and PL'ers to do and there is nothing wrong with that, but adaptation is not adjustment. Look it up if you have to.
Btw I'll get to personal replies to me later... because the contradictions are glaring and obvious.... and yes, I feel obliged to point them out because not doing so means that none of you have to actually think about the programmed nonsense you spit, and also because none of you have either the wit, the balls, the nerve, or the intelligence to admit to the contradictions yourselves.
laters.
"Situational power? Sure. Although in a sense... all powers are situational. It's just that some situations occur more than others." Understand the situation needed in order for the power to be most effective... and make that situation happen.
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We must not speak the same language; my dictionary says adjust means the same thing as adapt. |
Originally Posted by Dahjee
Who in the world wants to accept the advice or suggestions from someone on how to improve something when they have never wanted, enjoyed, or adjusted to it. Keep in mind I said "adjusted" not adapted... which is all that has occurred since I13 by most of the people against I13 mechanics... Adaptation. Easy for min/maxers, PvPers, and PL'ers to do and there is nothing wrong with that, but adaptation is not adjustment. Look it up if you have to.
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Originally Posted by Dictionary.com
ad·just [uh-juhst]
verb (used with object) 1. To change (something) so that it fits, corresponds, or conforms; adapt; accommodate 2. To put in good working order; regulate; bring to a proper state or position |
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Originally Posted by Dahjee
I'm trying to show you why what you whine and complain about has no merit whatsoever.... because it sounds stupid, emotional, illogical and untested
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Originally travel suppression was implemented for 2 reasons. First to prevent jousting; second to prevent players from timing jumps or movement in order to avoid rooting or animations. It does this in a manner that has no relation to game mechanics whatsoever.
Review of TS...
The Duration of Movement Suppression in PvP is variable based on the most recent suppression event applicable to the character. In case of multiple events applicable on the same server tick, only the longest value is applied.
1. All Teleportation is Disabled while PvP Travel Suppression is active.
2. Activating a foe TargetedRange (range > 7') damaging Power: 3s * Sum of damage scales.
3. Activating a foe Targeted Melee (Range >0' && Range => 7') damaging Power: 2s* Sum of damage scales.
4. Activating a foe targeted Range debuff or control power: 3.5s
5. Activating a foe targeted Melee debuff or control power: 2.5s
6. Placing a Location Based Entity: 4s
7. Activating a self or friend targeted Heal power: 4s
8. Being the target of an attack: 2s
Now for an unbiased look at the problems with this system.
1. There is no place in-game where this change is documented. New players and Veterans alike cannot go to a contact/plaque/help to find this information.
2. This change required other changes in the PvP system, most notably the changes to the amount of damage many powers do. Example: Neutrino Bolt for defenders is a 0.6 damage scale attack, under this system it would cause suppression for 1.8 seconds, but the target would be suppressed for 2 seconds. This is not intended, so Neutrino Bolt had its damage increased. Likewise other powers were toned down. Blaze for blasters is a 3.02 damage scale attack, under this system it would cause suppression for 9.06 seconds, which is far too long.
3. Teleport becomes completely useless in combat situations.
4. Evasion is no longer a useful skill because attacking a target once every 2 seconds, or placing an anchor debuff on them will keep them suppressed.
5. The one aspect that separates CoH from many other MMOs is the fast pace and freedom of movement; with travel suppression both of these aspects are removed from pvp play.
As I stated previously a fair and balanced way to incorporate travel suppression is to base the suppression on the duration of the power's animation. This would have a few affects on PvP play.
1. This change can be easily documented in-game and would be easier for new players to adjust to.
2. It achieves the goal of preventing players from skipping animation and rooting times.
3. There is now a balanced dynamic between those attacking and those being attacked.
4. Evasion is not removed as a skill because those being attacked are not suppressed for no reason.
5. Teleport is once again viable as a travel power.
6. The pace of combat can be maintained and similar to PvE.
time to get over it guys and cat girls. let it go.
A very sad story about War Witch and the neglected kitty. http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthread.php?t=219670
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Originally Posted by Black_Barrier
Guess it's hard to click while actively trying to keep the drool away from the keyboard...
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Ah, this must be Dahjee's second account. Well played, sir, but I caught you. Back to your cave now. All I hear in favor of keeping HD and TS is "your reasons to remove it are opinions and emotions," but these statements ignore the many facts supporting a change to these systems and "they have been here for 3 years; they're not going anywhere now," yet no one in this thread can state the actual intentions of the development team. It is most likely that they will do nothing that takes any development time. It is similarly likely that they will do nothing but minor band-aid fixes, but wouldn't you know it... we are actually asking for a simple band-aid fix here. |
Originally Posted by OPTICAL_ILLUSION
time to get over it guys and cat girls. let it go.
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Oh, and...
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Originally Posted by Dahjee
I'm trying to help you all with your quest.
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What a blatant lie this is. You're pathetic.
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I'm not entirely sure what you're suggesting here - are you suggesting the root time be the only suppression (as is the case with TS off in the arena) or keep the travel suppression temp power but only have it granted for the duration of the animation? Unless I'm missing something, the only real difference between the two is that under the latter system you wouldn't gain much benefit from jump-skipping animations.
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Originally Posted by LuxunS
As I stated previously a fair and balanced way to incorporate travel suppression is to base the suppression on the duration of the power's animation.
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@macskull, @Not Mac | XBL: macskull | Steam: macskull | Skype: macskull
"One day we all may see each other elsewhere. In Tyria, in Azeroth. We may pass each other and never know it. And that's sad. But if nothing else, we'll still have Rhode Island."
"One day we all may see each other elsewhere. In Tyria, in Azeroth. We may pass each other and never know it. And that's sad. But if nothing else, we'll still have Rhode Island."
Ahhh. the good ol'days. TP and a handful of greens = lol no I won't die to the 16 of you because I've TP'ed and popped green insp 700ft away in only just a few seconds.
If I remember correctly. People were advocating the suppression of TP in some form or another long before I13 came around. They were doing so for good reason... and I say that as an avid TP/Fly PvP'er.
At best removing these two mechanics would just allow peeps to respec out of phase and Hibernoob. Simply because they'd get away as easily as they do having those "type of powers" now. BTW this point is brought to you by a much more subtle point... So I ask humbly and with ALL due respect... someone to share your thoughts to this question:
If removing HD and TS woulde not greatly increase the survivability and ability to evade in zones... then why exactly is it almost universialy suggested to have phase and/or Hibernate in a PvP build post-I13?
I come from a school when then the best of the best were those that laughed at peeps for taking and /or needing them... only to watch what became the best of the best cherish these powers and condemn anyone who called them a "crutch."
"Situational power? Sure. Although in a sense... all powers are situational. It's just that some situations occur more than others." Understand the situation needed in order for the power to be most effective... and make that situation happen.