Why I hate the new Tutorial
By
Afterimage,
Posted on: 2011-09-18 13:40 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
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They are supposed to be different. The ones that landed in Bloody Bay were scouts and took on aspects of where they landed (assumed graves buried under the meteorites). They -are- the Coming Storm. I would expect to see more types of Shivans introduced as new issues come out.|
Originally Posted by NewScrapper
4) Concerning these Shivans -- since when were the Shivans faceless rock aliens? These are not the Bloody Bay Shivans I was expecting. Please don't tell me they were redesigned to tone down the horror component -- that's the only thing that made these beasts interesting! Besides, what can be worse in the middle of an alien invasion than to find out they aliens are partly comprised of your own dead? Anyone rt-clicking and reading the backstories on these faceless rock aliens -- yes, they have backstories while our signature characters don't -- is going to be confused as the description hardly matches the new look.
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Originally Posted by NewScrapper
6) Is this tutorial actually supposed to teach you anything? The old tutorials were nicely broken down into steps that highlighted all the major aspects of gameplay: targeting, damage, conning, inspirations, enhancements, combining enhancements, glowies, allies, missions, etc. This was a jumbled mess of "do this, now do that" without any clue of how all this stuff is supposed to work. I guess I understand now why CoX implemented the Help channel: We're not going to tell you how to play the game -- that's what other players are for!
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Players will learn the following throughout Level Ranges 5 - 19:
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Originally Posted by NewScrapper
7) Ooooh, big scary Shivan monster who apparently is no real threat to my level 1 character at all
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Originally Posted by NewScrapper
9) About the only thing that I liked was the moral choice component, but even that felt a bit misleading given that you're never going to see that in the CoX side of the game ever again after that. There should probably be a note at the bottom that says, "If you want to roleplay more moral choices like these, try rolling a Praetorian," just to direct people over to the other side where that actually happens repeatedly.
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Originally Posted by NewScrapper
I don't know how anyone else feels, and again, this is only my first impression, but I'm already wishing I could have the old tutorials back, just as an option. The new tutorial was annoying, un-fun, and not something I look forward to playing again (though I probably will, since I tend to be a completest about gameplay).
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Originally Posted by NewScrapper
10) The only badge I get is for visiting the STORE??? Seriously? I mean, yes, it sort of makes sense, since this was the only feature of the game I actually felt I had been taught to use during the tutorial -- the part that will enable CoX to get more of my money in the future. How utterly shameless and unheroic -- even a villain would be embarrased by such money-grubbing tactics.
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Triumph: White Succubus: 50 Ill/Emp/PF Snow Globe: 50 Ice/FF/Ice Strobe: 50 PB Shi Otomi: 50 Ninja/Ninjistu/GW Stalker My other characters
The Shivans composition is determined by the available material from where they are formed, iirc. The Bloody Bay ones originated in a cemetery...hence the bits of bodies. The Galaxy City ones are composed of the stuff that one would expect to find in an urban environment, concrete, rebar, etc...
Furio--Lvl 50+3 Fire/Fire/Fire Blaster, Virtue
Megadeth--Lvl 50+3 Necro/DM/Soul MM, Virtue
Veriandros--Lvl 50+3 Crab Soldier, Virtue
"So come and get me! I'll be waiting for ye, with a whiff of the old brimstone. I'm a grim bloody fable, with an unhappy bloody end!" Demoman, TF2
Also chiming in. What the posters above posted is correct. Also, getting to know who the heroes/villains are isn't part of the tutorial. You're not supposed to find out about them because they are not the focus of the tutorial. You are.
In the old tutorial, you did things as they came. Or you didn't. You could waste time killing baddies for a badge THEN you moved on. Well, the new tutorial is supposed to be fast paced. The world is being destroyed. You have to quickly decide on on what role you are going to play. Save the day and be a hero or jump in and reap the rewards of the shivans misdeeds?
Once you decide, THEN the tutorial starts.
The tutorial isn't meant, now, to be a wham-bam and them start the story of Paragon. The new tutorial lasts from 1-20'ish. You're taken from level to level learning the intricacies of the game rather than read a pop-up you click "OK" to exit. You're shown what to do in a situation. You're shown how the UI works. You're shown all of the things that might have taken you 2 months to figure out on your own. And during that time, you're leveling up and learning the new story of Paragon/Mercy and Galaxy.
I think this is much better than a quick intro and send you out on your own.
And, if you dont like all that, skip it! Once you're in Atlas/Mercy, you can run around, level up with or without the new story arcs, then continue on your merry way.
CoH Freedom really has the best of both worlds now.
pohsyb: so of all people you must be most excited about the veats
Arachnos Commander: actually, I am
pohsyb: I mean you kinda were one already anyways ^_^
Arachnos Commander:
I have to agree with the OP about the new tutorial. Probably the worst of the bunch. Not by much but certainly my least favorite.
I do give the new tutorial a good mark for being short.
Now if we can only get the mouse inverted as default changed.
H: Blaster 50, Defender 50, Tank 50, Scrapper 50, Controller 50, PB 50, WS 50
V: Brute 50, Corruptor 50, MM 50, Dominator 50, Stalker 50, AW 50, AS 50
Top 4: Controller, Brute, Scrapper, Corruptor
Bottom 4: (Peacebringer) way below everything else, Mastermind, Dominator, Blaster
CoH in WQHD
NewScrapper, I think I understand what you're saying, so let me rephrase it in a way which might build a more productive thread:
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Originally Posted by NewScrapper
I love that the new tutorial incorporates some Paragon City lore. That's a huge improvement over the old cops and drugs tutorial. I'm disappointed however that this hasn't been taken further. There are a few confusing things and missed opportunities: ...
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Some people apparently forget that both badges are achievable via Ouroboros from the Pilgrim's arc.|
Originally Posted by Snow Globe
Some people aren't grateful that (a) they'll never miss the tutorial badge on another character, and (b) that you don't have to delay getting into the game to hunt for badges.
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The new tutorial is a waste of space, and I said as much on Beta. It doesn't teach you anything you'll actually need to know about the game other than how to jump and purchase from the store (obviously), so why even have it? Because it's fun? News flash: It isn't. Combat at level 1 is slow, boring, plodding and crippled, especially against a giant monster that you fight alone as I had to when I ran this thing because everyone else was smart enough to skip it, apparently.
The old tutorial may not have been fun, but it was functional. It didn't feel like it was rushing me, I had plenty of time to review my instructions and it actually asked me to learn things and then replicate them. "This is how you con enemies. Go con these over there." "This is how you use enhancements. Go use these I gave you." "This is an instance, go run it."
I know "continuing tutorial missions exist," but they are both very late in their appearance and STILL don't teach you about how to con enemies. I could use Dual Origin enhancements as early as level 12, but the mission to teach me to use them doesn't exist until level 15. And to this day I still don't know how to join the new sewer trial, because no-one has actually told me.
If the new tutorial is just there to throw flashing lights at people's faces like I'm subscribing to Michael Bay's fan mail, then why have it at all? And indeed, with the option to skip it, why would anyone want to run it at all? So they know how to jump and buy from the Store?
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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Isn't there a contact near Miss Liberty that will tell you what the server trial is about, and how to join it? I coulda swore there was a new guy somewhere near her..
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There is - he's to your left when you're facing Ms. Liberty.
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Originally Posted by Arbegla
Isn't there a contact near Miss Liberty that will tell you what the server trial is about, and how to join it? I coulda swore there was a new guy somewhere near her..
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@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
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It's at this point that your entire point is wrong.|
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
Some people apparently forget that both badges are achievable via Ouroboros from the Pilgrim's arc.
The new tutorial is a waste of space, and I said as much on Beta. It doesn't teach you anything you'll actually need to know about the game other than how to jump and purchase from the store (obviously), so why even have it? Because it's fun? News flash: It isn't. |
Fun is subjective, and what you might think isn't fun (nearly everything in CoH, it seems) others might love.
The new Tutorial also tells you (through the voice over) how to target enemies, and it shows you how to train to level 2. Anything else you need to know how to do isn't necessary in an intro tutorial.
The old tutorial was tedious, especially with all the running back and forth talking to people/terminals. The map was way larger than it needed to be, and the tasks you were given made no sense, especially once you got into Paragon, where the infection was never mentioned again. The Villain tutorial was better, but it was still more of the same fedex kind of stuff.
The new tutorial might be too short, it might be too brief in showing you things, but at least it transitions a story into what you're doing in Atlas or in Mercy.
Loose --> not tight.
Lose --> Did not win, misplace, cannot find, subtract.
One extra 'o' makes a big difference.
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I don't know. I didn't see one and one wasn't pointed out to me.
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Originally Posted by Arbegla
Isn't there a contact near Miss Liberty that will tell you what the server trial is about, and how to join it? I coulda swore there was a new guy somewhere near her..
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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Okay, that makes sense. Fair enough.|
Originally Posted by Snow Globe
They are supposed to be different. The ones that landed in Bloody Bay were scouts and took on aspects of where they landed (assumed graves buried under the meteorites)....I would expect to see more types of Shivans introduced as new issues come out.
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| Yes, but the tutorial/training process now extends to level 20 with the ongoing training missions. |
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| You are incapable of getting defeated in the new tutorial. |
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| You didn't listen to the speaker telling you that you can change later, huh?...You roleplay through the tip system. |
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| The old tutorials are BORING, annoying, not fun.... |
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| ...if you prefer to do the old tutorial missions, the maps are still in the flashback system in the intro to Ouro arc. |
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| Some people aren't grateful that (a) they'll never miss the tutorial badge on another character, and (b) that you don't have to delay getting into the game to hunt for badges. |
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An awesome setup where they teach you about training only after you have done it a minimum of 4 times. Wowzers. Or how about when they teach you about enhancements when you are in the middle of a mission when you have no enhancements and would need to leave to get some?|
Originally Posted by Snow Globe
Yes, but the tutorial/training process now extends to level 20 with the ongoing training missions. Didn't you read about those in the patch notes?
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The new missions have some examples of good writing, but that are absolutely worthless for learning about playing the game. Too little information given to you much to late to do any good.
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Which is bloody stupid if you're a brand new player wanting to know what the game is about. If you don't want to know who these people are, you don't have to rt-click on them, but if you *do* want to know who these people are, it would be nice to have something on them to read. Otherwise the impression one gets is, "Nothing important to see here -- move along." Which is sad considering these are supposed to be your idols, the paragons of heroism/villainy to which someone like you aspires.|
Originally Posted by Commander
...getting to know who the heroes/villains are isn't part of the tutorial. You're not supposed to find out about them because they are not the focus of the tutorial. You are.
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| ...the new tutorial is supposed to be fast paced. The world is being destroyed. You have to quickly decide on on what role you are going to play. |
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| The new tutorial lasts from 1-20'ish....You're shown all of the things that might have taken you 2 months to figure out on your own. |
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| CoH Freedom really has the best of both worlds now. |
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You keep making arguements about how the system fails for new people yet moan about veteran problems.
| Quite right, but only after spending two minutes adjusting all your keymaps, chats, powers, options, etc., |
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There is, and he's where GG mentions he'll be. Except, up against the edge of the walk, beyond the NPC store. In beta, I was trying to think like a newbie, and I stumbled across him. My thought was "why wasn't there an alert that he was there?"|
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
I don't know. I didn't see one and one wasn't pointed out to me.
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As to the new tutorial. As a VIP with a lot of former Vet awards, it does take a while to set everything up. I don't know if its possible, but I'd love a one-click process that tunes the whole UI to a pre-fab I've set and stored.
The others' explanations of the Shivans is pretty good. I'd only point out that I gather the Shivans are a group, rather than a breed. Kind of like Devouring earth having crystaline, plant, and animal-based "breeds" under one title. As the assault waves pour in, we may see Shivans that look radically different.
Sam, my first assault on the giant Shivan was as a loner, too. It was not obvious to me at the time, in the heat of battle and the confusion of figuring out the scenario for the first time, but the air support ramps up to assist for solo and small groups. Watch for the target arrows to appear on the ground.
I'd been hoping for a badge for killing 100 of the tutorial Shivan, but since they currently are only found in the tutorial (I think), I understand why there is not one.
I do wish we could dialog with Coyote (I hope he pops up in new missions later), and it might be nice to have a few refugees gawk, point, and call out the names of the signature heroes, so a new person would at least note that these are names of importance that they may see again.
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Seriously, that rephrasing is entirely yours, not mine:|
Originally Posted by Dark Sweater
NewScrapper, I think I understand what you're saying, so let me rephrase it in a way which might build a more productive thread:
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| I love that the new tutorial incorporates some Paragon City lore. |
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| That's a huge improvement over the old cops and drugs tutorial. |
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| I'm disappointed however that this hasn't been taken further. |
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| There are a few confusing things and missed opportunities. |
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Or ya know, spending 10 seconds hitting 'Load from file' on all the different load options (windows, chat, powers, etc) and boom. Done.
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Originally Posted by NewScrapper
Quite right, but only after spending two minutes adjusting all your keymaps, chats, powers, options, etc., and feeling like a useless doofus while S.P. and B.A.B. are actively saving the world from the Shivan hordes.
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First, I moan about both kinds of problems because there are both kinds of problems there. Second, while I'm a veteran player, even were I a total newbie playing for the very first time, I would have needed to fiddle with the keymaps because I play with A and D as my left and right keys rather than Q and E.
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Originally Posted by warden_de_dios
You keep making arguements about how the system fails for new people yet moan about veteran problems.
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You can play with any keys you want but no Newbie is going to be forced to sit there for 2 mnutes as you claim.
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Eh, I roll new toons so seldom I never did investigate those capabilities. But like I posted above, were I a total newbie I would have still needed to change my left and right keys from the defaults (as well as the mouse invert, I'm guessing, though I may have just auto-adjusted myself to it already).
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Originally Posted by Arbegla
Or ya know, spending 10 seconds hitting 'Load from file' on all the different load options (windows, chat, powers, etc) and boom. Done.
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Okay, for a newbie it'll be more like a minute -- find the menu, find the options, find the keymaps tab, find the keys to set right. And all the while you're thinking, "I should be in there fighting!!" Only not really because, as you will notice even in that tiny about of time, S.P. and B.A.B. totally have it covered.
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Originally Posted by warden_de_dios
You can play with any keys you want but no Newbie is going to be forced to sit there for 2 mnutes as you claim.
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But wouldn't you have to do that with ANY game that your playing where you don't want to use the default keybinds? WASD is pretty common throughout more games, as universal up, left, down, right movement keys, so going against norms, and then complaining that you have to spend time to change it, is kinda whats the word? Counter productive?
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Originally Posted by NewScrapper
Okay, for a newbie it'll be more like a minute -- find the menu, find the options, find the keymaps tab, find the keys to set right. And all the while you're thinking, "I should be in there fighting!!" Only not really because, as you will notice even in that tiny about of time, S.P. and B.A.B. totally have it covered.
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I'm not complaining about having to change the defaults. I did that every time I was in the old tutorials and was just fine with it because in the old tutorials there was no sense of urgency. Your contact was just standing there, waiting for you to get your act together, and once you did you talked to him and then off you went on your adventure. There wasn't a raging, pitched battle going on thirty feet in front of your character that you knew you were supposed to be a part of while you were busy adjusting your binds (and then realized your presence wasn't required after all). I half-expected someone to shout, "There's no time for that, just get in there and help!" which is the kind of atmosphere I suspect the devs were going for, only that kind of atmosphere is -- what's the word? -- counterproductive when what you're trying to do is get your bearings.
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Originally Posted by Arbegla
But wouldn't you have to do that with ANY game that your playing where you don't want to use the default keybinds? WASD is pretty common throughout more games, as universal up, left, down, right movement keys, so going against norms, and then complaining that you have to spend time to change it, is kinda whats the word? Counter productive?
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I've been playing CoH since Issue 2, so I've sent a lot of characters through the old tutorial. These are my thoughts on the new Tutorial having played it last night for the first time. Please note that I'm writing this after the one and only time I've played the tutorial, so I might have missed things -- if I did, please point them out.
1) In the comic, Statesman is "introduced" (i.e., referred to for the first time) as "Marcus" by Lord Recluse. This should be changed so as not to confuse newcomers who will get the impression that the heroic leader's superhero ID is "Marcus." And I was half-expecting Statesman to call Lord Recluse "Stefan" in return, so the lack of symmetry is jarring.
2) The opening scene of the actual tutorial made me feel utterly useless and inconsequential. I'm dropped into the middle of a dire emergency, and I have to (as usual) spend the next two minutes adjusting my powers in the powers trays, adjusting my keymapping, adjusting my options and chat window settings, etc., all while there's a battle raging on -- oh, but that's actually okay, because as I've just noticed, the two heroes carrying on this raging battle don't even have health meters, so I really don't need to be here at all, do I? They'll be just fine. (The old tutorials handled this so much better: There was your first contact, patiently waiting for you to get your act together, and you could begin whenever you were ready, no pressure.)
3) Back Alley Brawler and Sister Psyche are there fighting the Shivans, but...don't you think I'd like to know who these people are? I can't right-click on them to get details? Who are these people, and what are their stories? Perfect opportunity to fill in the users on a little bit of backstory here, and it's wasted. Plus, aside from the fact that these two are fighting space aliens, I have no reason to emotionally connect to them. Disappointing.
4) Concerning these Shivans -- since when were the Shivans faceless rock aliens? These are not the Bloody Bay Shivans I was expecting. Please don't tell me they were redesigned to tone down the horror component -- that's the only thing that made these beasts interesting! Besides, what can be worse in the middle of an alien invasion than to find out they aliens are partly comprised of your own dead? Anyone rt-clicking and reading the backstories on these faceless rock aliens -- yes, they have backstories while our signature characters don't -- is going to be confused as the description hardly matches the new look.
5) Can I be made to feel any more useless? The Shivans don't even know I'm there! I walked through the middle of two herds, and they didn't even notice me. I didn't have to draw my guns or anything, I just blithely jogged over to the waypoint and got a radio message, then moved on to the next without any muss or fuss except when I had to use a couple Shivans for target practice to proceed.
6) Is this tutorial actually supposed to teach you anything? The old tutorials were nicely broken down into steps that highlighted all the major aspects of gameplay: targeting, damage, conning, inspirations, enhancements, combining enhancements, glowies, allies, missions, etc. This was a jumbled mess of "do this, now do that" without any clue of how all this stuff is supposed to work. I guess I understand now why CoX implemented the Help channel: We're not going to tell you how to play the game -- that's what other players are for!
7) Ooooh, big scary Shivan monster who apparently is no real threat to my level 1 character at all, given that he's barely able to hit me and *there are jets pounding him with missiles!!!* Again, why am I even here? I came, I shot, I teleported, I let out a deep sigh because I couldn't help feel this was a total waste of my time.
8) Wow, look at all these heroes surrounding the chopper, and none of them have any backstory! More opportunities to connect players to the gameworld...wasted.
9) About the only thing that I liked was the moral choice component, but even that felt a bit misleading given that you're never going to see that in the CoX side of the game ever again after that. There should probably be a note at the bottom that says, "If you want to roleplay more moral choices like these, try rolling a Praetorian," just to direct people over to the other side where that actually happens repeatedly.
I don't know how anyone else feels, and again, this is only my first impression, but I'm already wishing I could have the old tutorials back, just as an option. The new tutorial was annoying, un-fun, and not something I look forward to playing again (though I probably will, since I tend to be a completest about gameplay).
Oh, yes, and lest I forget!
10) The only badge I get is for visiting the STORE??? Seriously? I mean, yes, it sort of makes sense, since this was the only feature of the game I actually felt I had been taught to use during the tutorial -- the part that will enable CoX to get more of my money in the future. How utterly shameless and unheroic -- even a villain would be embarrased by such money-grubbing tactics.
That's all on the tutorial -- working my way through the new Atlas Park now, will probably post on that later.