Concerns about the new EULA
By
all_hell,
Posted on: 2011-09-11 04:59 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
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Yes it does and no we're not. The EULA makes explicit mentions of botting, hacks, cheats and pay services like those used by RMTers. Maybe you ought to try actually reading the thing before making your own judgments.|
Originally Posted by SlickRiptide
Here's my problem with the wording of the EULA: None of what you write above is what it says. You're projecting a motivation onto NCSoft and then using that made-up motivation to justify the wording.
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Originally Posted by Zombie Man
There are plenty of folk who say bad things about the game in these very forums and they don't get banned.
Sooooo... where the heck are you getting this from? |
"You don't lose levels. You don't have equipment to wear out, repair, or lose, or that anyone can steal from you. About the only thing lighter than debt they could do is have an NPC walk by, point and laugh before you can go to the hospital or base." -Memphis_Bill
We will honor the past, and fight to the last, it will be a good way to die...
I think we can all agree the EULA is unenforceable as written. I know that, in many places, it's not possible for you to sign away your rights, your right to privacy included. If NCSoft tried to be as intrusive as the EULA currently claims they -can- be, they would have the electronic pants sued off of them in much of the civilized world.
One thing that NCSoft -may- have done here, however, is shoot themselves in the foot. I am pretty sure that, if some of the portions of the EULA are illegal, it will void the ENTIRE document in some jurisdictions. It would depend on laws which apply to each individual location, but NCSoft may have just given some people free reign to do anything they want with the game. Such is the penalty they pay for trying to make their document too all-encompassing and overstepping their legal need for control over the use of their software.
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To say the least. I cannot comment on how I truly feel about the OP for fear of another sanction....and perhaps another attempt on my 'civil rights'....LOL |
Originally Posted by Smersh
I'd just like to point out that the phrase 'civil rights' is being grossly misapplied here.
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Not on weekends. This thread will be gone by this time tomorrow, I expect.
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Originally Posted by Rangle M. Down
I thought the mods deleted /em ragequit threads? Nvm.
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"You don't lose levels. You don't have equipment to wear out, repair, or lose, or that anyone can steal from you. About the only thing lighter than debt they could do is have an NPC walk by, point and laugh before you can go to the hospital or base." -Memphis_Bill
We will honor the past, and fight to the last, it will be a good way to die...
Welcome back, Westley!
(I'm just trying to stay ahead of the curve)
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Sorry, but even under the *OLD* EULA there were still some "dubious" clauses in there... which renders your ((edit)) argument a bit strange, as NCsoft would have already given them free reign.
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Originally Posted by Power_Play
One thing that NCSoft -may- have done here, however, is shoot themselves in the foot. I am pretty sure that, if some of the portions of the EULA are illegal, it will void the ENTIRE document in some jurisdictions. It would depend on laws which apply to each individual location, but NCSoft may have just given some people free reign to do anything they want with the game. Such is the penalty they pay for trying to make their document too all-encompassing and overstepping their legal need for control over the use of their software.
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Ragequit threads mostly seem to appear at the weekend, for some weird reason
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
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No, you don't, any more than banks need you to sign an agreement not to rob them just in case you try to claim "I forgot armed robbery was illegal!"
| Nooo, but you need that language to shut up the folks who say, "How was I supposed to know you couldn't do that?" |
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People who want this game to succeed should carefully consider what they say on this matter, rather than simply bark at people who complain. You do more damage than any of the people who indifferent. If all you want playing the game are a bunch of f2p herpa derps, then consider this issue seriously without just dismissing it as paranoia I-have-nothing-to-hide bullcrap that's infected this country for the last 10 years. Yes I just went there.
I've read the part of the EULA about monitoring computer components and the scope is too wide and the purpose not made clear. These two things, in my opinion, need tweaking. Why? Because it protects us from fat sweaty nerd at ncsoft looking at stuff about us that they have no business doing. Or at least that's the potential, and while it may not be important to you, it's important to some people, because they actually care about their rights big and small.
By making it clear why they need monitoring, and putting language in the EULA that limits the scope to the game software and processes that they know can enable or aid in cheating, in no uncertain terms, they can provide a protection for us, so that fat sweaty nerd can't hide behind blanket EULA statements, in the unlikely event that someone at ncsoft is found to have abused their monitoring power in any way.
Get behind this or get out of the way, that's my opinion, and I care about this game's future. Do you?
AION has a very, very, very, very similar clause. Know what killed AION?
Bots. Know what stops bots? The ability to detect them. Know what gives the company who owns the game ability to detect them without the user getting their nuts up in a wad and suing them for being barred from cheating? Clauses like the one Westley posted.
Sorry to see you go, Westley, especially over something this retarded.
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Originally Posted by Nox__Fatalis
People who want this game to succeed should carefully consider what they say on this matter, rather than simply bark at people who complain. You do more damage than any of the people who indifferent. If all you want playing the game are a bunch of f2p herpa derps, then consider this issue seriously without just dismissing it as paranoia I-have-nothing-to-hide bullcrap that's infected this country for the last 10 years. Yes I just went there.
I've read the part of the EULA about monitoring computer components and the scope is too wide and the purpose not made clear. These two things, in my opinion, need tweaking. Why? Because it protects us from fat sweaty nerd at ncsoft looking at stuff about us that they have no business doing. Or at least that's the potential, and while it may not be important to you, it's important to some people, because they actually care about their rights big and small. By making it clear why they need monitoring, and putting language in the EULA that limits the scope to the game software and processes that they know can enable or aid in cheating, in no uncertain terms, they can provide a protection for us, so that fat sweaty nerd can't hide behind blanket EULA statements, in the unlikely event that someone at ncsoft is found to have abused their monitoring power in any way. Get behind this or get out of the way, that's my opinion, and I care about this game's future. Do you? |
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| NCsoft has the right, but no obligation, to monitor operation of any service, content or software at any time and in any matter, including but not limited to monitoring communications and communications interfaces, storage devices, random access memory or CPU processes related to hardware you use with the game. Such monitoring may also include, but is not limited to, monitoring for the purposes of detecting software under section 8(c) or 8(e). |
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| (c) Use, or provide others with, any software related to the Game, including any automation software (a.k.a. "bot") or software designed to change or modify operation of the Game; (d) Use, or provide others with, any "hack," "cheat," "exploit" or "mod"; (e) Use, or provide others with, any service related to the Game, including but not limited to: (i) any service that interacts with the Software; or (ii) any service that that would change characteristics related to a Character ID, such as increasing the level of a character (a.k.a. power-leveling); |
Come on man, don't claim to read something when it's blatantly clear that you haven't.
We're not dismissing complaints because we're all wearing rose-colored glasses and have our noses stuck up the devs' rear ends, we're dismissing complaints because they are silly and this EULA isn't any different than any other EULA out there.
"You don't lose levels. You don't have equipment to wear out, repair, or lose, or that anyone can steal from you. About the only thing lighter than debt they could do is have an NPC walk by, point and laugh before you can go to the hospital or base." -Memphis_Bill
We will honor the past, and fight to the last, it will be a good way to die...
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Yes that is why people who are absolute morons about things like this should be mocked, derided, shamed, and otherwise shown to be the complete idiots that they are.|
Originally Posted by Nox__Fatalis
People who want this game to succeed should carefully consider what they say on this matter, rather than simply bark at people who complain. You do more damage than any of the people who indifferent. If all you want playing the game are a bunch of f2p herpa derps, then consider this issue seriously without just dismissing it as paranoia I-have-nothing-to-hide bullcrap that's infected this country for the last 10 years. Yes I just went there.
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There is also the fact that Westley regularly posts an I"m leaving and never coming back rant every few months. No one should be taking seriously in the slightest.
I had wondered when the people who defend stupid would come racing into the thread to claim everyone dumping on him and the others over reacting are the bad people and we should be understanding of the poor misguided but sincere fools who post things like this.
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| Get behind this or get out of the way, that's my opinion, and I care about this game's future. Do you? |
The key is why is it overly broad and you are being foolish and narrow minded in not realizing the very solid reasons for that. The EULA exists not to provide authority to do something but instead to provide protection should the game company act. Basically anyone suing because they had their account terminated would be pointed to the notice in the EULA that they were not protected by posting over on X board about it.
If NCSoft does what Blizzard has done or Sony or other companies have done in the past with putting intrusive monitoring software on your computer you can bet it will be noticed and everyone will no about it 30 minutes after the software went live. And you can react then how ever you want. But to jump up and down and panic now? That is just being stupid and sticking your fingers in your ears and screaming that the sky is falling because someone said it might.
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Here's the thing I'm wondering: how long has Westley been crafting this latest I'm RageQuitting thread.
Think about it: he hasn't played in months. When I posted on Unleashed before I learned better he barely talked about the game except to complain. News of the new EULA has been out since just before September 1st yet it took 10+ days for this thread to start.
How long was he planning just the right things to say? Obviously, not long enough since he misused the words "civil liberties" so mightily. How long was he planning just the right time to post it? The Sunday morning, guaranteeing him a full day of it being live, just days before he can continue having an account? Perfect!
The sad thing is I think Westley spent more time fuming and ranting and constructing this original post than any NC Soft lawyer did preparing the new EULA. And for what? For him to return and rage quit over something equally stupid two months down the line?
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The funny thing is that he will probably resubscribe just so he can post his rage quit post in 2 or 3 months. |
Originally Posted by Friggin_Taser
And for what? For him to return and rage quit over something equally stupid two months down the line?
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It is amazing the energy he invests in his ranting.
But it's MY sadistic mechanical monster and I'm here to make sure it knows it. - Girl Genius
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That's why it's "best" to post them at the weekend |
Originally Posted by Rangle M. Down
I thought the mods deleted /em ragequit threads? Nvm.
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@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
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To be fair, I didn't see any mention of this new EULA until Friday when someone posted about it in Player Questions. If I were prone to ragequitting over such things (or, indeed, at all), my timing probably would have been the same as Westley's (and I haven't been playing that much lately either, mostly due to burnout).
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Originally Posted by Friggin_Taser
Here's the thing I'm wondering: how long has Westley been crafting this latest I'm RageQuitting thread.
Think about it: he hasn't played in months. When I posted on Unleashed before I learned better he barely talked about the game except to complain. News of the new EULA has been out since just before September 1st yet it took 10+ days for this thread to start. How long was he planning just the right things to say? Obviously, not long enough since he misused the words "civil liberties" so mightily. How long was he planning just the right time to post it? The Sunday morning, guaranteeing him a full day of it being live, just days before he can continue having an account? Perfect! The sad thing is I think Westley spent more time fuming and ranting and constructing this original post than any NC Soft lawyer did preparing the new EULA. And for what? For him to return and rage quit over something equally stupid two months down the line? |
"You don't lose levels. You don't have equipment to wear out, repair, or lose, or that anyone can steal from you. About the only thing lighter than debt they could do is have an NPC walk by, point and laugh before you can go to the hospital or base." -Memphis_Bill
We will honor the past, and fight to the last, it will be a good way to die...
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For thought-crime against the Emepror, citizen.
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Originally Posted by Santorican
Why would they need to monitor what we say on other boards?
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@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
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I don't really know who he is, but going by his registration date, I assume this is some kind of ritual thing he does every so often? |
Originally Posted by TerraDraconis
The funny thing is that he will probably resubscribe just so he can post his rage quit post in 2 or 3 months.
It is amazing the energy he invests in his ranting. |
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
lol bye
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Yep.
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Originally Posted by Golden Girl
I don't really know who he is, but going by his registration date, I assume this is some kind of ritual thing he does every so often?
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And stepping in...
We have no plans to introduce malicious, harmful or intrusive software to your computers. While we do remain vigilant in our fight against exploits (we will be introducing a new anti exploit measure, server side, come Issue 21, but more about that later) we also respect your right to privacy and will not gather any information without your explicit permission (i.e.; you agreeing to send us crash/bug/whatever feedback via the launcher functionality).
I understand your concerns, but please be assured, we are keeping our watchdog on a leash.
I can also assure you that while we certainly do read third party websites , we do *not* directly action anyone based on comments made outside of our official forums or in game. While we certainly take things said everywhere seriously (all feedback is valid) and investigate concerns no matter the source, we do not action/ban/suspend or otherwise based on second or third hand information that we cannot verify by our own tools.
Andy Belford
Community Manager
Paragon Studios
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You don't have a forum (completely with private sub forum after private sub forum after private sub forum) to stew in, though. If Unleashed is anything like it was (and there's no reason for it not to be, Westley is too busy creating new sub-private forums and weird voting rituals instead of generating actual discourse), then someone would have posted about the initial Beta rant thread where, indeed, the term "civil liberties" was misused there, too. He would have then seen it, saw red at even the mention of civil liberties being trampled, and started slowly crafting his LAST EPIC RAGE QUIT THREAD EVER (this week).
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Originally Posted by DarkGob
To be fair, I didn't see any mention of this new EULA until Friday when someone posted about it in Player Questions. If I were prone to ragequitting over such things (or, indeed, at all), my timing probably would have been the same as Westley's (and I haven't been playing that much lately either, mostly due to burnout).
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Current Badge Hunter: Plot Device (Rad/Thermal/Dark) - 1,268 Xbox Live: Friggin Taser
King of Electricity, Lead Inmate running the Carl and Sons asylum, the "Man" behind the Establishment, Given Honor in Hat Form By Paragon City (Favorite Forum Poster 2006!), Master of Ceremonies of the Fair Use Law podcast
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Has it been approved by Mother?
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
we will be introducing a new anti exploit measure, server side, come Issue 21, but more about that later
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@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
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Garbage, the bank doesn't need an agreement because armed robbery is an actual crime. Moddifying a game is not a crime. If it were a crime, modded xboxs and tenth prestige lobbies would be more than a bannable offense and bubba would be a lot happier. Because it's not a crime, the owner of the software has to take certain legal mesures to protect themselves. You have the right to privacy, you don't have the right to play a game. The owner of the game may require you waive some of you're rights, before they allow you access, so that they may protect their assets.|
Originally Posted by Venture
No, you don't, any more than banks need you to sign an agreement not to rob them just in case you try to claim "I forgot armed robbery was illegal!"
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There's a reason apple spends so much money making the iPhone hard to crack
There's a reason companies spend as much money as they do on legal departments instead of getting a random person from the forums who thinks they understand international law
There's a reason why most of my generation thinks people have no real expectation of privacy on the internet
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#23. Teamwork is essential; it gives the enemy other people to shoot at.
#46. If you can't remember, the Claymore is pointed towards you.
#54. Killing for peace is like screwing for virginity.
It can be summed as:
No matter how many times you say that "Someone" can kill you. It will still be a crime. The laws trump any EULA, thats why EULAS are only enforced while there is no laws to stomp then.
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