Concerns about the new EULA
By
all_hell,
Posted on: 2011-09-11 04:59 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
Quote:
Well, not really considering how broad those EULA terms are. If they actually took it literally and tried to enforce it, it looks to me like they are claiming the right to do everything from install a keylogger to steal your bank password, to remotely turn on your webcam and watch you walk around naked*. I don't really think they will, but the EULA really is written ridiculously broadly; so much so that NCSoft would be protested and sued out of existence if they actually tried to exploit it as written.|
Originally Posted by Smersh
Quote:
|
*Not that much of a joke; there was a school that did that with its take-home school issued laptop computers to "monitor the behavior" of the kids. It didn't turn out at all well when people found out.
Arc #40529 : The Furies of the Earth
Quote:
I'm going to assume by Westley's posting history that his meaning of "civil liberties" was the freedom of speech.|
Originally Posted by Obscure Blade
Well, not really considering how broad those EULA terms are. If they actually took it literally and tried to enforce it, it looks to me like they are claiming the right to do everything from install a keylogger to steal your bank password, to remotely turn on your webcam and watch you walk around naked*. I don't really think they will, but the EULA really is written ridiculously broadly; so much so that NCSoft would be protested and sued out of existence if they actually tried to exploit it as written.
*Not that much of a joke; there was a school that did that with its take-home school issued laptop computers to "monitor the behavior" of the kids. It didn't turn out at all well when people found out. |
Which this does, in no way, violate. Just like how you can say whatever you feel like and then get fired from a job over it, any company you do business with can terminate said contract if you say something they disagree with. There is no "Freedom of Speech" in a video game.
That is how he's misapplying it here. But you did give him a pretty good out to try to rationalize his misuse of the term by adding the paranoid webcam business he's sure to latch onto.
Current Badge Hunter: Plot Device (Rad/Thermal/Dark) - 1,268 Xbox Live: Friggin Taser
King of Electricity, Lead Inmate running the Carl and Sons asylum, the "Man" behind the Establishment, Given Honor in Hat Form By Paragon City (Favorite Forum Poster 2006!), Master of Ceremonies of the Fair Use Law podcast
Quote:
I agree, and I choose where I post very carefully.|
Originally Posted by Friggin_Taser
Zwill, I appreciate your reply, but I don't think it'll help. If anything, you just added this already toxic thread to the community digest...
|
That being said, it's important that you, as the customer, know our response, especially in regards to something as sensitive as individual privacy. Westely, and anyone else who is expressing concern, is well within their rights to do so. Take it from someone who puts his real name, identity and livelihood out there for the whole world to see; having the safety of your privacy is very important. I understand this as a consumer, as a gamer and as a father and husband.
Andy Belford
Community Manager
Paragon Studios
Quote:
Zwill, while I agree you said what needs to be said, I just would have done it in any of the non-Forum Rules breaking "I'm Quitting" threads that have popped up about the new EULA since September 1st instead of this one.
|
Originally Posted by Zwillinger
I agree, and I choose where I post very carefully.
That being said, it's important that you, as the customer, know our response, especially in regards to something as sensitive as individual privacy. Westely, and anyone else who is expressing concern, is well within their rights to do so. Take it from someone who puts his real name, identity and livelihood out there for the whole world to see; having the safety of your privacy is very important. I understand this as a consumer, as a gamer and as a father and husband. |
Current Badge Hunter: Plot Device (Rad/Thermal/Dark) - 1,268 Xbox Live: Friggin Taser
King of Electricity, Lead Inmate running the Carl and Sons asylum, the "Man" behind the Establishment, Given Honor in Hat Form By Paragon City (Favorite Forum Poster 2006!), Master of Ceremonies of the Fair Use Law podcast
Quote:
You posted in a PvP thread the other day - that's risky |
Originally Posted by Zwillinger
I agree, and I choose where I post very carefully.
|
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
Quote:
/this. |
Originally Posted by Friggin_Taser
Zwill, while I agree you said what needs to be said, I just would have done it in any of the non-Forum Rules breaking "I'm Quitting" threads that have popped up about the new EULA since September 1st instead of this one.
|
Taser's "homeless man crying doom" analogy is really, really apt in this case.
Quite honestly, I'd have put some sort of statement like this into an announcement - "We understand there are some concerns, yadda yadda..." without bringing attention to someone's "Yet another I quit" post.
Quote:
Not to mention the fact that when this thread is nuked from orbit (since that's the only way to be sure), we will also lose Zwill's explanation.
|
Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
/this.
Taser's "homeless man crying doom" analogy is really, really apt in this case. Quite honestly, I'd have put some sort of statement like this into an announcement - "We understand there are some concerns, yadda yadda..." without bringing attention to someone's "Yet another I quit" post. |
Current Badge Hunter: Plot Device (Rad/Thermal/Dark) - 1,268 Xbox Live: Friggin Taser
King of Electricity, Lead Inmate running the Carl and Sons asylum, the "Man" behind the Establishment, Given Honor in Hat Form By Paragon City (Favorite Forum Poster 2006!), Master of Ceremonies of the Fair Use Law podcast
I think all this legalese is rather silly. They all say the same thing. "We can do whatever we want. You can't do anything. Most especially, you can never ever sue us no matter what we do. If you ever blink then that blinking signifies that you have read and agreed to this contract, and to any modifications we ever make to it, whether we tell you about them or not." As far as I can tell, that's what every piece of legalese junk I've ever agreed to has said. My choices seem to be "agree to everything every corporation asks of you, or go live in a cave." /shrug. It's not my favorite aspect of the 21st century, but that's what life has become.
Avatar: "Cheeky Jack O Lantern" by dimarie
Quote:
Actually, we won't - the updated NCSoft launcher will automatically change our desktop backgrounds into various messages from the community team.
|
Originally Posted by Friggin_Taser
Not to mention the fact that when this thread is nuked from orbit (since that's the only way to be sure), we will also lose Zwill's explanation.
|
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
Quote:
Yeah. Actually they DO. NCSoft, to have control over their environment needs the power to unilaterally remove accounts from the system. Like being employed in an at-will state. For any reason, even no reason. Otherwise someone can hobble them with unstated exceptions.
|
Originally Posted by Venture
We don't need language in the EULA that would allow someone at NC to kick you because they don't like your political opinions.
|
Clicking on the linked image above will take you off the City of Heroes site. However, the guides will be linked back here.
Quote:
I know. That's why I cleaned it up into something beyond a WALL OF SHOUT. I didn't say *Westley* was shouting at me.|
Originally Posted by SlickRiptide
That section and one or two others are written into the EULA that way. It was a copy and paste, not Westley raging.
|
Quote:
| I filed a bug report about it as deliberate obfuscation of the content, given that most of the EULA is written in ordinary mixed-case and paragraphs. Probably some lawyer just copied some boilerplate and didn't bother formatting it, but it's annoying, regardless. |
Clicking on the linked image above will take you off the City of Heroes site. However, the guides will be linked back here.
Quote:
You also forgot:|
Originally Posted by TerraDraconis
Thats because a lawyer wrote it and a lawyer can't be clear on something like that to save their life. If they can use big words that cover 20,000 things to describe the one expected situation you can bet that the lawyer will go for the biggest amount of coverage that they can.
The important thing to remember about EULA's are. A) They exist to CYA the company for standard things the company does. B) They have never actually been found to be enforcable. D) Having one protects you [thus the CYA aspect] from lawsuits for your standard practices because you posted the standard practice in the EULA. E) This is why the lawyer writing the bloody thing will try to make is as broad and general as they can. |
F) It they make the meaning casually (or even explicitly) vague and impenetrable, THEY get paid beaucop buckage to go to court to achieve the specificity they need for any case at hand. And they can do it over. And over. And over. And over. And (well, you get the idea).
Clicking on the linked image above will take you off the City of Heroes site. However, the guides will be linked back here.
Quote:
That's why my webcam is always turned sideways when I'm not using it. My PC may sporadically decide to turn it on for no reason (**** you, L4D2, for turning on my webcam even when you don't need it!), but so long as it's not motorised, it can't turn around to look at me. Nyah! |
Originally Posted by Obscure Blade
*Not that much of a joke; there was a school that did that with its take-home school issued laptop computers to "monitor the behavior" of the kids. It didn't turn out at all well when people found out.
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
|
Quote:
You've obviously never been racked while wearing a cup have you?|
Originally Posted by TerraDraconis
If you put a good cup on first the free punch in the balls can be fine.
|
The cup doesn't stop you from experiencing excruciating, debilitating pain. What the cup does is give you a better chance of avoiding dangerous amounts of swelling and clots so that "Big Jim and the Twins" won't need to be amputated.
You're still going to be on the floor puking up your last meal WISHING someone had shot you in the head with a punt gun.
Clicking on the linked image above will take you off the City of Heroes site. However, the guides will be linked back here.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by MentalMaden
 |
Clicking on the linked image above will take you off the City of Heroes site. However, the guides will be linked back here.
Quote:
Try looking at the EULA in other games and online services. Not websites.|
Originally Posted by UberGuy
I have never seen a website EULA that makes the kinds of claims we're talking about.
|
Quote:
| Among other things, it's not possible for most of them to do without installing software. I never install software unless the point is to use that software, and I have never installed software with this sort of EULA. |
ORLY?
Quote:
| Edit: Just to be clear, I'm not going to go quit over this or anything of the sort. Weighing my awareness of what they probably mean to do with this against my interest in continuing to play comes out in favor of staying. That doesn't mean I like this new EULA terminology - its far too broad, and I dislike on principal giving people permission to do things that I don't actually want them to have permission to do. I'm looking around to see if there's anything besides unsubscribing that I can do to apply useful pressure to get them to change it. Probably not, but it's at least worth looking into. |
Clicking on the linked image above will take you off the City of Heroes site. However, the guides will be linked back here.
Quote:
Let's just say that this is NOT the most hair-raising thing I've ever seen transcribed into contract law.
|
Originally Posted by Gangrel_EU
Is this a case of "too broad and people get annoyed" and "too focused and you end up with a document about 300 times longer" just to describe every single eventuality and specifics of what they can and cannot do...
|
Clicking on the linked image above will take you off the City of Heroes site. However, the guides will be linked back here.
Quote:
It's not really paranoia when it's actually happened. Which is one reason why I've never gotten one (besides not actually wanting one), and why Samuel_Tow turns his to the wall - just in case.
|
Originally Posted by Friggin_Taser
But you did give him a pretty good out to try to rationalize his misuse of the term by adding the paranoid webcam business he's sure to latch onto.
|
Arc #40529 : The Furies of the Earth
Quote:
Because a good number of bots don't share the game's memory space. They're assigned their own. and then monitor the memory space of the game.|
Originally Posted by UberGuy
They do not need permission to have the program send back its own memory. The main objection I have is to the clauses which, in theory, could allow them to view any memory or files on the computer.
|
And you can talk about locking something down. Honestly, maybe you could. I don't know you. As such, I'm inclined to be skeptical in the face of such claims. No offense intended. Just a battle scarred veteran of far too many encounters with so-called "elite" users to ever take such claims at face value.
I don't honestly trust anyone (at least not unquestioningly). Not even that tubby ****** in the mirror. (He creeps me out!)
Clicking on the linked image above will take you off the City of Heroes site. However, the guides will be linked back here.
Quote:
You want to talk about contract law. Youch. Kristine Kathryn Rusch a writer has been discussing changes in writer contracts for the last couple of months. There are some amazingly bad clauses buried in the new contracts going out that attempt to grab all rights from the author if you sign it as is. Some of this is new and some of this is old. |
Originally Posted by Hyperstrike
Let's just say that this is NOT the most hair-raising thing I've ever seen transcribed into contract law.
|
From what I can see contract law appears to be a full contact battle between the teams of lawyers.
But it's MY sadistic mechanical monster and I'm here to make sure it knows it. - Girl Genius
List of Invention Guides
Quote:
Nope. It explicitly states in the document that while the EULA doesn't trump law, if the law trumps a portion of the EULA, that portion of the EULA is unenforceable but rest is still in force.
|
Originally Posted by Power_Play
One thing that NCSoft -may- have done here, however, is shoot themselves in the foot. I am pretty sure that, if some of the portions of the EULA are illegal, it will void the ENTIRE document in some jurisdictions.
|
Clicking on the linked image above will take you off the City of Heroes site. However, the guides will be linked back here.
Already wes? sheesh, think of baseball or margret thatcher.
Quote:
Yep that is a clever phrase lawyers have started inserting into things. it is commonly even used in federal laws passed by the congress. That is done so that if part of a law is ruled unconstitutional than the whole thing isn't invalid. Though sometimes they get in such a rush that they forget that bit of boilerplate. Heh.
|
Originally Posted by Hyperstrike
Nope. It explicitly states in the document that while the EULA doesn't trump law, if the law trumps a portion of the EULA, that portion of the EULA is unenforceable but rest is still in force.
|
But it's MY sadistic mechanical monster and I'm here to make sure it knows it. - Girl Genius
List of Invention Guides
Quote:
You'll just have to disagree and be thought wrong then Venture. I'd recommend talking to a real lawyer before coming back and arguing this further. On both sides.
|
Originally Posted by Venture
No, you don't, any more than banks need you to sign an agreement not to rob them just in case you try to claim "I forgot armed robbery was illegal!"
|
Clicking on the linked image above will take you off the City of Heroes site. However, the guides will be linked back here.
We have no plans to introduce malicious, harmful or intrusive software to your computers. While we do remain vigilant in our fight against exploits (we will be introducing a new anti exploit measure, server side, come Issue 21, but more about that later) we also respect your right to privacy and will not gather any information without your explicit permission (i.e.; you agreeing to send us crash/bug/whatever feedback via the launcher functionality).
I understand your concerns, but please be assured, we are keeping our watchdog on a leash.
You can't try to rationalize with the barefoot homeless person on the street corner screaming that the End is Nigh. And if you hold a press conference to assure him that the End is very much down the line and not close at all, you are just giving him the attention his barefoot homelessness requires.
Current Badge Hunter: Plot Device (Rad/Thermal/Dark) - 1,268 Xbox Live: Friggin Taser
King of Electricity, Lead Inmate running the Carl and Sons asylum, the "Man" behind the Establishment, Given Honor in Hat Form By Paragon City (Favorite Forum Poster 2006!), Master of Ceremonies of the Fair Use Law podcast