Concerns about the new EULA
By
all_hell,
Posted on: 2011-09-11 04:59 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
Why would they need to monitor what we say on other boards?
Virtue: @Santorican
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Lots of stuff in the EULA looks scary at face value. The vast majority of it is basically to cover NCSoft/Paragon's behind in the legal sense. What I gather from the above is that they have the right to ban you if they think you're using bots. Given the stuff that was already in the EULA, this isn't something I'd lose sleep over.
@Demobot
Also on Steam
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Blah blah blah, we might check to make sure you're not trying to cheat. To everyone who thinks NCSoft is doing something outrageous and new, I invite you to read *any* game or application EULA - they all make absurdly broad claims about what companies can and may do if they feel like it, however, *nothing* they say can trump your local laws, assuming they're even enforceable in the first place.|
Originally Posted by Westley
...and this is why.
This is a gross violation of my privacy and civil rights, and I will not subject myself to this. I will be unsubscribing permanently as soon as I send this message. I'm posting this so that whoever in NCSoft may see it that may change this. If you take this out, I may continue to subscribe in the future. But as it stands, I'm done. I've been paying for the past seven years almost, and for the last two or three without even playing most of the time. No more. |
If you don't want to play any more then that's fine, but don't be naive enough to think that any other games will be any "better".
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When you allow anyone to download executables to your game (every time you install anything) you are giving them a huge amount of access to your computer. They could have code in the download that erased your harddrive if they wanted. That's why you only download from people you trust, because you're giving them access to change your world (figuratively speaking)...
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I interpreted the section quoted the same way actually...|
Originally Posted by The_Spad_EU
Blah blah blah, we might check to make sure you're not trying to cheat.
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Having played other MMO's, i have seen several ways in which players cheat with bots and macro's and it can be very very hard to tell the difference between a human and a bot in some cases (some bots even use mouse wiggles, pauses, variable time delays between actions to appear more human from a log point of view).
But to gain the "kill" against several bots in the space MMO did require the use of a dedicated team, as well as process monitoring of the client (and everything that linked into it).
Of course, i assume that you are fine with players botting in CoX... just so long as it doesn't affect you.
Note: To monitor any process that links to the game from outside of the game box would require the previously mentioned (cpu, memory etc etc) parts to be monitored...
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Originally Posted by Socorro
When you allow anyone to download executables to your game (every time you install anything) you are giving them a huge amount of access to your computer. They could have code in the download that erased your harddrive if they wanted. That's why you only download from people you trust, because you're giving them access to change your world (figuratively speaking)...
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/e facepalm
Eula are evil. All of them. They always have been and always will be - even the ones for standalone software (non MMO computer games, etc) read similar. I wish you luck in whatever new hobby you take up to replace computer gaming. Your posts were occasionally entertaining and educational and may be missed.
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Yes, EULAs are something of a joke. They are legally questionable at best, and if companies ever started to really try enforcing them on large scale they'd probably be forced out of business* if the resulting outcry didn't result in the government stepping in first.|
Originally Posted by The_Spad_EU
To everyone who thinks NCSoft is doing something outrageous and new, I invite you to read *any* game or application EULA - they all make absurdly broad claims about what companies can and may do if they feel like it, however, *nothing* they say can trump your local laws, assuming they're even enforceable in the first place.
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*Because if people started to actually take them seriously, most people would react like Westley is or worse. No one would do business with anyone with a EULA, no one would want to scroll through lots of incomprehensible legalese for every last bit of software they use, no one would trust that it wasn't a trap.
Arc #40529 : The Furies of the Earth
If you set up some other web site or forum to leak NDA information, or to show disassembled piggs, or to stalk or harass some player, then, yeah, you should be banned.
If you think Paragon Studios has the time or inclination to monitor other web sites or boards for minor infractions, then that's rather delusional thinking since they barely keep up monitoring the official forums. But when egregious violations come to their attention, they want to be able to point to the EULA and say, "See, we told you this could happen."
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Can someone contact Westley and tell him to seriously stop overreacting? That stuff's probably been in the EULA for some time without him even noticing....these are terms and conditions we accept constantly and other people have said are questionable.
Westley, you previously agreed to all this stuff. Some testicular fortitude would be required, sir.
S.
Part of Sister Flame's Clickey-Clack Posse
I think this is the first ragequit post for CoH: Freedom - and considering it's only 2 days from launch, that's pretty good going - I was expecting way more nerdrage from the whole hybrid payment model too 
@Golden Girl
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I wonder now how I ever thought of Westley as a rational person.
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Westley overreacting?!? I don't believe it!
Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't Westley the guy who decided to piss on a departed user's memorial thread because said user was in the army?
Sooooo, as appearently no one else cares... Can I have your stuff? 
@Redcap
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Bye Westley! See you when you get back after calming down.
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He's actually now the second person I know who unsubbed over the EULA.
Do I think he's overreacting? Mostly. Do I think that EULA's terms, as written, are remotely sane? No.
I first looked into these new terms last night after the first person I saw quit over them pointed them out. Whether or not I think NCSoft has the means or inclination to use them at their fullest extent, that EULA's terms are grossly broad. I immediately recognized what they are trying to do, allow and protect themselves from in practice. I also see that their efforts to allow those things have been cast in preposterously overly broad ways. They want/need to do a few categories of thing and they're declaring permission to do anything.
Just because I don't think it's likely someone will rob me doesn't mean I think it's smart to sign a document that says my yard service can unlock my house and look around in it whenever they want. Likewise, I don't like having to (ostensibly) consent to allowing NCSoft to basically do anything they want with my personal system because I use their service. They probably won't do anything bad, but I think it's foolish to freely consent to something that gives them permission to do things which could be bad.
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I get two things from this.
1) Someone has waaaaay too much time on their hands if they frequently re-read the EULA for any insidiously evil changes.
2) This man will never get suckered by Steve Jobs and join the Cent-Ipod.
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BAH! That's what I was going to ask.
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Originally Posted by Nos482
Sooooo, as appearently no one else cares... Can I have your stuff?
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@Oathbound
@Oathbound Too
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I don't think he gave away his stuff the last time. So this is just a sure sign he'll return.
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Originally Posted by Oathbound_Too
BAH! That's what I was going to ask.
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BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection
Best Overreaction To a Stupidly-Written EULA - 2011
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You probably already do this more often than you think, fyi. Do you run NoScript on Firefox? If you do, which sites do you have fully unblocked? (If not, why the hell not???) Do you have antivirus software? (This question is entirely rhetorical; of course you do.) You pretty much have to give that free rein in order for it to be effective. Why do you trust AVG/Avast/or god forbid, Norton?| Just because I don't think it's likely someone will rob me doesn't mean I think it's smart to sign a document that says my yard service can unlock my house and look around in it whenever they want. Likewise, I don't like having to (ostensibly) consent to allowing NCSoft to basically do anything they want with my personal system because I use their service. They probably won't do anything bad, but I think it's foolish to freely consent to something that gives them permission to do things which could be bad. |
Ever read a credit card contract? Lots of similar legalese in there also (although it's not as bad since the reform act of...2010 I want to say?). In this world you agree to a lot of stuff that, if the person truly wanted to take advantage of you through the agreement, they could and you would have little-to-no legal recourse.
"You don't lose levels. You don't have equipment to wear out, repair, or lose, or that anyone can steal from you. About the only thing lighter than debt they could do is have an NPC walk by, point and laugh before you can go to the hospital or base." -Memphis_Bill
We will honor the past, and fight to the last, it will be a good way to die...
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Okay let's look at this without the WALL OF SHOUT.|
Originally Posted by Westley
...and this is why.
This is a gross violation of my privacy and civil rights, and I will not subject myself to this. I will be unsubscribing permanently as soon as I send this message. I'm posting this so that whoever in NCSoft may see it that may change this. If you take this out, I may continue to subscribe in the future. But as it stands, I'm done. I've been paying for the past seven years almost, and for the last two or three without even playing most of the time. No more. |
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You consent to the foregoing monitoring and acknowledge that NCsoft may conduct such monitoring, including but not limited to monitoring in-Game communications and Message Boards provided by NCsoft as well as third-party Message Boards and the like. You also acknowledge that NCsoft may take any action, or no action whatsoever, based on such monitoring, including but not limited to action under Section 5, and that NCSoft has no obligation to explain any decision to take any action, or no action whatsoever, based on such monitoring. (d) NCSoft has the right, but no obligation, to monitor operation of any service, content or software at any time and in any matter, including but not limited to monitoring communications and communications interfaces, storage devices, random access memory or cpu processes related to hardware you use with the game. Such monitoring may also include, but is not limited to, monitoring for the purposes of detecting software under section 8(c) or 8(e). You consent to the foregoing monitoring and acknowledge that ncsoft may, at any time, and in any manner, communicate any information between hardware you use with the game and any mechanism NCSoft may choose for such communications. You also acknowledge that as a result of such monitoring NCSoft may in its sole and absolute discretion take any action, or no action whatsoever, including but not limited to:
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- Bot in NCSoft games
- Talk about botting in NCSoft games
- Foster a botting subculture in NCSoft games
- Talk about RMT in NCSoft games
- Engage in RMT in NCSoft games
- Foster an RMT subculture in NCSoft games.
- Use NCSoft games as a communication medium for terrorist activities
- Hack or use hacked game client software with NCSoft games
With thousands of people playing this game (all at the same time) across multiple servers, why in the name of Bob would they actually decide to just spy on you and use the game client to rifle through your porn collection? I won't say the chances of someone abusing this don't exist. But the likelihood of it actually happening is vanishingly small. And if it did, you'd have legal recourse regardless of what the EULA says since browsing your filesystem beyond the scope of the game and attached apps falls under CF&A.
This is standard "cover their butt" boilerplate. Mostly it's to head off complaints by people whose accounts were shut down for gross violations and prevent illegitimate chargebacks through proper documentation of misconduct.
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I think Westley & co. are worried that the devs will be spying on Unleashed (which they probably already do) and ban their accounts if they dare say anything bad about the game, which would be a legitimately awful thing to do but it's a pretty silly thing to assume.
"You don't lose levels. You don't have equipment to wear out, repair, or lose, or that anyone can steal from you. About the only thing lighter than debt they could do is have an NPC walk by, point and laugh before you can go to the hospital or base." -Memphis_Bill
We will honor the past, and fight to the last, it will be a good way to die...
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I do, and only the ones I have to unblock to use. Any site I visit only once gets a temporary unblock only, and I never unblock ad tracking or google/yahoo APIs unless the site won't work without them. Mostly, I leave sites that won't work without those APIs, and don't go back.|
Originally Posted by DarkGob
You probably already do this more often than you think, fyi. Do you run NoScript on Firefox? If you do, which sites do you have fully unblocked? (If not, why the hell not???)
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But notably, these sites (well, other than this one, soon) do not have terms of use that state that they can do anything they want with data on my computer because I visited them.
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| Do you have antivirus software? (This question is entirely rhetorical; of course you do.) You pretty much have to give that free rein in order for it to be effective. Why do you trust AVG/Avast/or god forbid, Norton? |
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
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Couldn't they have done that already? Even if not in the EULA, I'm sure they could of done some trumped up charge on it |
Originally Posted by DarkGob
I think Westley & co. are worried that the devs will be spying on Unleashed (which they probably already do) and ban their accounts if they dare say anything bad about the game, which would be a legitimately awful thing to do but it's a pretty silly thing to assume.
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...and this is why.
Edited: With the permission of the OP, edited so that it did not violate the Forum Rules. -Z