What is your position on untyped damage in Incarnate content?

Good:
Having sections, encounters, or powers which do untyped damage that add an element to a fight and require additional tactics. See: Apex TF

Bad:
Having an entire encounter designed around untyped damage which makes your entire character, build, and playstyle invalid. See: Hamidon

Quote:

Originally Posted by PRAF68_EU Dispari has more than enough credability, and certainly doesn't need to borrow any from you.

I kinda like it. Another side of the coin is why should the end-game content favor any damage-type?

Remove the OHKO rule, as a lowbie you can die from falling off a building, if you're running through an area of much higher level enemies and they get a shot off, back to the hospital. If they removed the OHKO rule everyone dies, yes the attack is that strong, I feel one of the issues you're having is that a base full health Blaster (or Mastermind for that matter) and a full health tank (who is HP capped) end up with only 1 HP left after the attack, if they removed the OHKO rule everyone hit by nova fist would die, that seems fair and not a bad idea to me at all.

The other issue is making you're build feel worth the same as the SOd player, what if you could build for untyped damage? Would you? What if they implemented incarnate IOs that only dropped during incarnate trials, have the damage, pbaoe, and the like sets and for the 6th slot put 2.5% defense to untyped damage. The ONLY way people would slot for it would be on an alternate build they only use for I trials but even then is a player going to give up softcapped defense for half that and only 15% defense to untyped which is largely avoidable and/or manageable?

I still like my nuke example and you're right certain superheroes can survive a nuke but it was used as an example as something at a) will hit you no matter what you do and b) hits hard enough to knock you out. For balancing issues remove the OHKO rule, then everyone can die together.

I don't particularly like the idea of removing the One Shot code- but, if you wanted to be able to insta-kill any character in the trials you already can, just make the attack do multiple ticks of damage, spaced infinitely close together (like what the Longbow Heavy would/used to do in Recluse's Victory... 6 or so shots over 1/4th a second that did somewhere around 2k damage, a guaranteed 1 shot on my Stalker if it hit!).

Adding an 'untyped' damage type would likely require some revamping of how the type system for damage works (as I mentioned earlier on, they already had all the types used up back when they added Hami damage), and I'm fairly certain that you can't make def/res able to block 'untyped' damage (a base defense buff might, actually, which'd increase your defense to everything else, though... no equivalent for resistance AFAIK). Not saying it's impossible, but that it wouldn't necessarily be a drop-in "solution" (a "solution" I don't like anyways).

We've been saving Paragon City for eight and a half years. It's time to do it one more time.

FWIW: I think we have alot more untyped damage than people might think at first - my blaster's basically fighting with no Ancillary Shield in Keyes because Anti-matter OneShots me without even aiming at me - anyone who has his aggro seems to forget that he, you know, USES AOES. I wish my Fire Shield would get the PVP treatment (resistance to everything) in iTrials.

Also - I run out of greens about 3 pulses in cause the pulse's damage scales to my increased HP but my greens do not.

Also Also - my Brute laughs at Marauder's Nova Fist - I wade into melee, taunt him, and Fire Rebirth radial just as the power icon shows up in my list. I heal the instant after receiving damage, and myself and everyone nearby are at full in under 5 seconds.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shubbie Im very good at taking a problem and making it worse.

I love untyped/unavoidable damage myself, it makes the game feel a lot more along the lines of the comic book superheroes. Where's the fun in being utterly invincible to everything that comes along, I think we all need our kryptonites, even people who've spent bzillions on their characters (before you moan about it, yes, I have spent tons of cash on a character before).

*wanders in*

As primarily a tank player I don't mind the untyped damage in the iTrials that much, as they are separate, story specific mechanics.

It does feel a "little" like the game is cheating but again its a story specific mechanic, so not a big problem. To be honest I dislike the sequestering mechanic far more! As a tank I am relying on other members of the team grabbing aggro once I get to 2 rings otherwise the whole team gets held. Since I have no method of "disposing of aggro" its annoying to be at the mercy of other team mates. Especially as I get the blame.

That happened fairly recently actually. After one BAF a league mate made a sarcastic comment thanking me for all the sequestering and told me I needed to "learn to play". At first I felt guilty but then I noticed he happened to be the one Brute on my team and since there where no other tankers, he was the only one really equipped to take the aggro once I got to two rings!

*sigh*

(Cliffs Notes version at the end, for those un-inclined to read my rant on Incarnate trials)

Preface: I'm ALL for making content harder. I started running TF's at +4 something like 4 issues ago. Long before Incarnate content. Most of them were <45, so IO's didn't do squat, either. Try running Original Positron at +4, if you want a challenge. It's fun. (Split across two play sessions, I think we ended up at something like 4:32 actual time, with around 104 deaths, for the record) When you're getting debuffed into next Thursday (IE: having -400% ToHit, 0 HP/s regen, and -30% Defense and/or Resistance, with no Incarnates to back you up), you really have to start thinking about how much aggro the team (and yourself, if you're tanking) can handle, and put more thought into special circumstances (like pulling AV's, etc). It adds much more excitement to TF's, and missions in general.

That said, in special circumstances where it's justifiable with a logical story-based explanation, I'm all for unresistable/unavoidable damage. To an extent. Take the Terra Volta Trial for instance. You're standing in a nuclear reactor. Taking unavoidable damage makes sense. To a certain extent, Hamidon's damage also makes sense. It's a highly specialized circumstance, and is fairly logically explained. Same goes for the Crystal Titan. It (to an extent) just makes sense. With the possible exception of Crystal Titan (it's been a while since I've done that trial), none of these can one-shot you. There are ways around the damage (bubbles, EoE's, and Ambrosia's, respectively, on top of healing in the case of Terra Volta and Crystal Titan), and you have ample time to evade the damage, or otherwise avoid it.

Nova Fist? I can see the meeting now.... "So, guys, we um... Need to come up with an explanation for this guy being guaranteed to be able to one-shot a Stone tank with 3,200 HP, hardcapped resistances, and 60% defense (to all but Psi, mind you), and 150 HP/s regen." "I've got an idea. Let's have Marauder drink a magic energy drink that makes him all uber and stuff!" "Sounds like a plan, let's do it!" Yes, I know. You get a warning about his Nova Fist. But let's be honest for a second, shall we:

First off, there is *no* explanation as to what "Nova Fist" actually is aside from giant red letters yelling "NOVA FIST, BACK AWAY!" at you. It doesn't tell you "Oh, by the way, Nova Fist is an unresistable, undefendable PBAoE that can one-shot *anything* in the game." It kinda sucks being on your first trial and finding these things out the hard way.

Second, yes. You get a warning. But, assuming you know what that means, there's other factors. First, lag. I don't know about everyone else, but I have *never* been on an even remotely lag-free trial. So, that 5 second (or so) warning is now down to about 4 seconds. Shadow Maul has a 3.07 second cast time. If you happened to activate Shadow Maul (or a similar power) just before the warning, you're now down to a (roughly) 1.5 second span of time to move after seeing the warning. Now, factor in the lag trying to move away, possibly getting stuck on teammates, and/or the fact that Stone tanks are not the most mobile objects around, or a myriad of other problems that could come up... And you're royally screwed. THAT, I am not a fan of.

I can (technically) get one-shotted by Dr. Aeon (on the STF), yes. IF, he happens to CRITICAL with Total Focus, AND that critical happens to make it through 55% Defense (before ally buffs). It's possible, but unlikely, largely avoidable (it's a very slim chance), it doesn't have a chance of screwing over the other 7 people on the team (unlike the other 20-something people Nova Fist can screw over), and fairly easy to recover from, if by some miracle it happens. THAT, I am a fan of, as it adds an unpredictable element to the mission, knowing that it's *possible* but *unlikely* that you *could* die by a random coincidence. Being guaranteed to die every 20 seconds or so (however often Marauder uses Nova Fist) if I don't move at the right time is not my idea of making content both fun *and* difficult. It actually ends up making it difficult to have fun.

Since I'm ranting, let's talk about Keyes...

I've done it once. Yes, once. With any luck, I'll never do it again. EVER. I had the misfortune of running my first Keyes on my Blaster. This blaster can solo-main-tank LGTF by way of popping breakfrees and melting mobs before it takes significant damage. It can even survive reasonably well on BAF/Lambda, despite having no defense or resistance whatsoever. On Keyes, I lost count, but if I had to guess, I'd say I probably died somewhere in the area of 70 times (yes, in one trial), due entirely to the unavoidable, unresistable, un-counterable (the first person who says "pop more greens" gets shot) pulses of damage, that there is *no* legitimate way to recover from. Rest is out, because you'll either die from other aggro, or die in rest, because rest takes so long to activate that the next pulse will hit while you're still resting (I tried). Popping greens is out, because you likely got rezzed the last several times you died, and are out of greens, which don't provide enough healing, so you have to pop several. Ally buffs are right out, because, you know... It's unresistable and unavoidable. This leaves ally healing. Which is unreliable, given the scale of team size we're talking about here, and even then, only really works with Empathy and Pain. I am NOT a fan of this.


Cliffs Notes version, for those disinclined to read a book: I'm all for harder content. However, adding more and more ways to die with no way to avoid it is NOT the right way to do it. Higher damage enemies (but still resistable/avoidable damage), and more (and more varied) debuffs, and even more (and again, more varied) status effects IS the way to do it. I'm ALL for my tank (the above mentioned Stone tank, who, by the way, can tank all 4 patrons, the flyer, and the extra aggro from the path at once, without breaking a sweat. Thank you, team buffs and IO's.) dying because the two mobs I aggro'd are now doing -800% Regen, -40% Resistance, -200% ToHit, AND endurance drains (or, insert your preferred debuffs here. Whatever. You get the idea). Or getting Held through Granite + Rooted + a single application of Clear Mind. Or getting Terrorized (which is rare outside of LGTF and Longbow). There's exciting, entertaining ways to make people die (which I'm a fan of. Someone once said that debt is a measure of how much Awesome you are generating) that DO NOT involve unresistable, unavoidable damage that can kill *anything*, regardless of how many buffs you stack, how many Destiny powers are active, and how much you've spent on IO's.

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That's my rant on the state of Incarnate trials and such. Back to Test with me. >.>

I'm seeing a lot of talk about unresistable, unavoidable damage causing "equality" in this thread.

You're forgetting the large inequality those mechanics create between buffs, debuffs, taunts, slows or mezzes, and heals. After 50 levels of choice between any number of approaches to support a team, Keyes is a disappointment and a bore to my non-healing defenders. Just slot Rebirth like everyone else, and pray to the trinity.

It's a necessary evil to make content that can't just be rofloled over with buffs and IOs. The devs pretty clearly want us to employ classic WoW-style boss battle gimmick tactics in the trials and if there were no untyped damage we just wouldn't have to, plain and simple.

I24 Proc Chance = (Enhanced Recharge + Activation Time) * (Current PPM * 1.25) / 60*(1 + .75*(.15*Radius - 0.011*Radius*(360-Arc)/30))
Single Target Radius = 0. AoE Non-Cone Arc = 360.

Something that I don't believe that has been mentioned is the fact that it's easier for the devs to create content in this manner and end up with something difficult, sadly BAF and Lamba get it wrong still. Incarnate trials shouldn't be about button mashing and knowing when to move out of the way, hell my Blaster got sequestered on a league with 3 tanks and 2 brutes but I was hovering above everyone so nobody else got sequestered before I knew what it meant. I want to do Keyes because of how hard people make it but it's mentioned that there is a T4 power that if 4 of people on your team have it the trial becomes easy?

I did my first mothership raid this week and although it was fun, it didn't leave me a sense of accomplishment, one player running a script on how to do things exactly and enough people to fill the zone. Hamidon is the same way. I'm honestly hoping the coming storm is all it's cracked up to be because if it's not it's a good thing I'll be able to go f2p.

That's the problem with content in an MMO: When it's new, people have no idea how to do it and often fail many times at the start (unless it's just the same thing rehashed). But, once people figure out how, the knowledge spreads like wildfire, and then everyone can do it fairly easily.

You have to throw in actual new mechanics (like the stuff in the iTrials) to actually make it interesting... but, they need a lot more new mechanics to keep people on their toes. Even with many more, people will learn how to exploit (not in the cheat sense) the system making it as easy as possible.

We've been saving Paragon City for eight and a half years. It's time to do it one more time.

I dont have a problem with it, infact i rather enjoy it. With the huge size of leagues people will be running at the softcap almost the entire time. Hell, they might even have their res capped. Still getting hit for something is nice, makes it hard.

I dont even have a problem with keyes, my main is able to survive thru it just fine thanks you healing flames. But i can see why someone wouldnt like it for sure,

I laugh at anyone that complains about nova fist, blue and green patchs and the like. Hell, i NEVER run away from nova fist and still survive at least 90% of the time. Nova hits for roughly 20 dmg less than your max hp

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jagged My understanding (and please correct me if I am wrong) is that when someone is sequestered then everyone on their team (as opposed to league) is hit with a high mag hold and that where you are does not matter. Where you are only matters because when you are sequestered Siege or Nightstar will hit you with AoEs and people can get hit with the splash damage.

Nope, its anyone near you. So if you and your league are stupid that could infact be the entire league. Thats why people with 2 rings tend to run out of melee.

IMO, outside of hamidon and the apex TF I do not see a valid reason for 100% unresistable damage attacks. This is mainly aimed at keyes and Marauder but applies to any other instances as well. I would prefer 75-85% of the damage be unresistable so that the stronger AT can resist some of it, and teams can too with resistance buffers. Hits will still nearly kill most ATs, but straight up team wipes should be reduced.