What is your position on untyped damage in Incarnate content?
By
Aneko,
Posted on: 2011-08-23 20:16 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
I call it "simplification." Because I know the rules, all of the rules, and what the devs do with unresistable damage I can do without unresistable damage.
In fact, there's no such thing as untyped damage. That damage is normally typed "Special" or "Unique." If I wanted to hit you really hard through your expensive resistances, I can: 1. Type the damage "Special" which you have no resistance for. 2. Type the damage Radiation which you have no resistance for.** 3. Type the damage Lethal but just make it unresistable. 4. Increase the attack to Scale 20 which will hit you really hard even at capped resistances, and everyone else it will one-shot. 5. Mez you and watch your toggles fall. Take all of those options away, and I can keep coming up with more. The fact is there's no "rules" that say critters can't hit hard, that they cannot mez you with a higher mag of mez than you have protection, that damage cannot be typed with a type you don't have resistance to. What you seem to be saying is if you build something that is indestructible, the devs have to honor that and continue to allow you to be indestructible. That the critters cannot improve along with you, and become more lethal than you become resilient. There are no such rules. If I'm the designer and I want to bring your multi-billion incarnate build to its knees, there are no rules that can stop me. All you can do is make it take increasingly more time to design. This is not a simulation. The mechanics are there to express intent. If my intent is to kill you, the mechanics of the game can't save you. If my intent is to hit you hard enough to threaten your life with high levels of damage, the mechanics of the game can't protect you. All you're doing is choosing the method of your injury, not the magnitude. Thinking that if the damage was resistable you'd get hit less hard misses the point. The devs don't give critters damage to give them damage. They give them damage to hurt you. They will continue to increase the level of damage until they hurt you as much as they intend to, no matter what your resistances are. ** Remember: I know the rules: there is such a thing as Radiation typed damage. At the moment, nothing fires it. That doesn't mean it doesn't exist. |
So in other words, there are many methods that the dev's can use to completely negate the entire foundation of how we view Archetype survivability, and it's perfectly okay with you for them to use whatever means possible every time they feel like pressing the "I Win" button.
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neither 9CUs or Mk-VIs have any type of hold powers and they are the only type of adds during that encounter
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Originally Posted by Roderick
"Near you" is roughly the diameter of the rings. You were likely held by one of the adds.
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If the dev motivation behind any game mechanic is "to kill you", that's likely a symptom of false challenge-difficulty equivalence. In a game that stands out in its industry for its customization, challenge isn't in how hard it is for our characters to succeed, it's in discovering novel, even personalized ways for our characters to succeed. We've customized our looks and our powers, our endgame should be customized as well.
This can be seen, for example, when certain players build reputations for running TFs or raids in particular ways. Some, for example, are known for aggressively rushing through a TF, even if it means taking point with a suboptimal tanking build, like an elec/elec blapper. (*cough*) They've discovered their own unique way of beating the game, and I like to think they get some personal gratification from that.
On Keyes, we have exactly one way to avoid Rocks Fall Everyone Dies. So you figured out not hurting A-M and green number spam are required to stay alive on Keyes? Congratulations. You graduated. There's no more challenge left, except for doing that same exact thing, over, and over. Have fun.
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In other words, if you don't like taking damage, complaining about the mechanics instead of being honest about complaining about taking damage is completely worthless, unless you think the devs are too stupid to come up with another way to deal a lot of damage to you.
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Originally Posted by TwoHeadedBoy
So in other words, there are many methods that the dev's can use to completely negate the entire foundation of how we view Archetype survivability, and it's perfectly okay with you for them to use whatever means possible every time they feel like pressing the "I Win" button.
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I'm assuming you aren't actually asking me to be more wordy just to avoid semantic objections.|
Originally Posted by Rigel_Kent
If the dev motivation behind any game mechanic is "to kill you", that's likely a symptom of false challenge-difficulty equivalence.
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| On Keyes, we have exactly one way to avoid Rocks Fall Everyone Dies. So you figured out not hurting A-M and green number spam are required to stay alive on Keyes? Congratulations. You graduated. There's no more challenge left, except for doing that same exact thing, over, and over. Have fun. |
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
In other words, if you don't like taking damage, complaining about the mechanics instead of being honest about complaining about taking damage is completely worthless, unless you think the devs are too stupid to come up with another way to deal a lot of damage to you.
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Haha, alright. Please point out where I said that the attacks shouldn't be powerful? I don't intend on any set, build, or otherwise to not ever sustain any damage. I just think the damage should be scaling appropriately based on individual character survivability rather than just destroying everything indiscriminately.
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Only after you point out where I accused you of saying that. I said you're complaining about the method of an effect the devs have lots of other methods of inducing. So complaining about the method is like asking to not get hit by green beams in Keyes. As if the devs couldn't, if they even cared enough to listen, make the beam purple instead.|
Originally Posted by TwoHeadedBoy
Haha, alright. Please point out where I said that the attacks shouldn't be powerful?
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Unresistable damage is a way for the devs to deal a level of damage that is a credible threat to ultra-high powered characters in a way that doesn't simultaneously generate impossible to survive levels of damage for everyone else. But those are the only two choices: you get hit hard and they get hit hard, or you get hit hard and then die instantly and you're eventually playing by yourself.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Only after you point out where I accused you of saying that. I said you're complaining about the method of an effect the devs have lots of other methods of inducing. So complaining about the method is like asking to not get hit by green beams in Keyes. As if the devs couldn't, if they even cared enough to listen, make the beam purple instead.
Unresistable damage is a way for the devs to deal a level of damage that is a credible threat to ultra-high powered characters in a way that doesn't simultaneously generate impossible to survive levels of damage for everyone else. But those are the only two choices: you get hit hard and they get hit hard, or you get hit hard and then die instantly and you're eventually playing by yourself. |
Did you read the post where I mentioned that it would encourage people to use things like barrier buffs and ice shields more strategically, instead of just being instant doom powers? This would allow for everyone to minimize the damage they took as much as possible while still playing to the strengths of their individual At/Powerset capabilities and keeping the way survivability in the rest of the game functions in tact.. And still posing a large threat. Sure beats "U got hit with teh Wrath" in my book.
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I wholeheartedly agree with you. The best part of this game is the fact there is diversity of builds (which I saw very clearly when trying a certain competitor game...) and that effort is rewarded with improved performance for toons on which said effort is spent. These types of attacks wipes this out and makes everyone even, and, well, that sucks. And most people seem to feel this way, as evidenced by the ghost town that the keyes trial has been relative to other content. |
Originally Posted by TwoHeadedBoy
I just wanted to hear some more opinions on this... Personally, I believe that *all* damage should be typed. I find it unfair that someone who invests a lot into a good build, both inf. wise and time wise, is just as likely to be one shotted by <super Incarnate NPC power> as someone who uses SO's. What some people would call challenging I would call cheating.
I would like to see what the popular opinion is on the forums... Do you feel that your billion influence, 5 purple set having awesome character should be just as easy to one shot with nova fist as that alt you just got to 50 who still uses SO's? I understand it seems like the mechanic is in place to keep things "fair" for everyone, but to me it just seems unfair. It makes it feel like all that hard work we put into building up our character's survivability was for nothing in the end game content. |
If I walk into an encounter as a tank, I don't want to be dropped pretty much as easily as a blaster. If you make survivability differnences virtually irrelevant, whats the point of having at's, or enhancements or even levels.
The devs seem overly concerned about the content being 'too easy' because they think the majority of players want some obscene challenge. OK - make a difficulty slider on the next trial and I'll bet you whatever the hell you want that the majority of players won't be maxing out that slider, especially when the reward differences are as miniscule as they are now.
The reality is, most players (NOT ALL, before I hear the few who like to play max difficulty all the time) play a super hero game because they like to feel super, not mediocre or weak. And when you have what amount to cheat attacks that drop pimped out lvl 50 toons in one or two shots regardless of what they do, that does not create that super feeling most players are looking for, lol.
Once again, the answer is a tool the devs have had since day one - the difficulty slider. Those who want a challenge should be able to go plus 4, plus 5, plus 10, whatever floats their boat, while the base difficulty should be moderate or even easy. There's no need for cheat attacks. Players who want to get dropped in one or two hits will find that very easily with the slider set at plus 8.
And scale the rewards proportionate to difficulty. For the maniacs playing at plus 6, give them great rewards equal to the challenge.
Do this and you satisfy your audience that likes easy, moderate AND hard. This doesn't require the cure for cancer, just common sense and some programming.
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Yes I did read it and this does not answer my question.
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Originally Posted by TwoHeadedBoy
Did you read the post where I mentioned that it would encourage people to use things like barrier buffs and ice shields more strategically, instead of just being instant doom powers? This would allow for everyone to minimize the damage they took as much as possible while still playing to the strengths of their individual At/Powerset capabilities and keeping the way survivability in the rest of the game functions in tact.. And still posing a large threat. Sure beats "U got hit with teh Wrath" in my book.
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I think the point is that the intention of the power (or enemy or scenario) is to do enough damage that it would kill Tanks. Meaning it already does the appropriate amount of damage based on character survivability. If it's designed to kill or nearly kill Tanks, it will do the same to every other AT as well.|
Originally Posted by TwoHeadedBoy
Haha, alright. Please point out where I said that the attacks shouldn't be powerful? I don't intend on any set, build, or otherwise to not ever sustain any damage. I just think the damage should be scaling appropriately based on individual character survivability rather than just destroying everything indiscriminately.
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Unless your suggestion is that nothing should be able to kill (or nearly kill) Tanks. Ever. Because I'm curious: if no other enemies can kill you, and the biggest and strongest enemies in the game have to be limited in the damage they do so they can't actually kill you, why should enemies even bother doing damage at all? If enemies were never a threat we could just fight cardboard boxes.
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Originally Posted by PRAF68_EU
Dispari has more than enough credability, and certainly doesn't need to borrow any from you.
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A bit unrelated but..concerning cheating AV tricks. When I first fought protean in teh newish hero side arc, I was using my elec scrapper. I saw the drain warning come up..and though, well, Im elec, doesnt matter. But oh no, he sapped ALL my end. To me, that is cheating. Its not a special power..he is energy aura, using his drain. To an elec, it should do NOTHING.
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Any power that gives you a big flashing WARNING!!!!!! on your screen and many seconds to avoid it... I'd say sacrifices enough to enable it to do exceptional things. It adds a bit of spice to the boring old AV mix.
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Originally Posted by MisterD
A bit unrelated but..concerning cheating AV tricks. When I first fought protean in teh newish hero side arc, I was using my elec scrapper. I saw the drain warning come up..and though, well, Im elec, doesnt matter. But oh no, he sapped ALL my end. To me, that is cheating. Its not a special power..he is energy aura, using his drain. To an elec, it should do NOTHING.
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Originally Posted by ShadowNate
;_; ?!?! What the heck is wrong with you, my god, I have never been so confused in my life!
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This, x1000. This stuff is designed to kill tanks, so it also kills everyone else (even tho it DOESNT kill the good tanks). The only way they could do that, would be to have insanely high base dmg and tohit, hell...i would think ticks 9999 dmg wouldnt even be enough for the toughest tanks if they have enough support backing them up. But that sure would ******* pwn everyone else.|
Originally Posted by Dispari
I think the point is that the intention of the power (or enemy or scenario) is to do enough damage that it would kill Tanks. Meaning it already does the appropriate amount of damage based on character survivability. If it's designed to kill or nearly kill Tanks, it will do the same to every other AT as well.
Unless your suggestion is that nothing should be able to kill (or nearly kill) Tanks. Ever. Because I'm curious: if no other enemies can kill you, and the biggest and strongest enemies in the game have to be limited in the damage they do so they can't actually kill you, why should enemies even bother doing damage at all? If enemies were never a threat we could just fight cardboard boxes. |
I have to say, i love it when people complain about something but i just think how easy that was, i guess im just epic. :P
"I have ridden the mighty moon worm!"
-Al Gore
Fiery Aura is only good for farming, I'm cereal
@Caucasiafro
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o.o You didn't ask a question.|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Yes I did read it and this does not answer my question.
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Originally Posted by Dispari
I think the point is that the intention of the power (or enemy or scenario) is to do enough damage that it would kill Tanks. Meaning it already does the appropriate amount of damage based on character survivability. If it's designed to kill or nearly kill Tanks, it will do the same to every other AT as well.
Unless your suggestion is that nothing should be able to kill (or nearly kill) Tanks. Ever. Because I'm curious: if no other enemies can kill you, and the biggest and strongest enemies in the game have to be limited in the damage they do so they can't actually kill you, why should enemies even bother doing damage at all? If enemies were never a threat we could just fight cardboard boxes. |
And myself and many others are of the opinion that tanks are tanks and high survivability builds are highly survivable for a reason. The minute you start dealing a fixed amount of damage indiscriminately across everyone regardless of the strengths and weaknesses of their build or Archetype is the minute those things become totally irrelevant and the very fundamentals of having builds and archetypes in the first place is called into question.
There is a difference between facing challenging enemies that have difficult attacks which scale damage in a relative amount per character and having <super god guy> come along and indiscriminately knock everything down to 1 HP because the Dev's decided that making everything fair and equal to those who chose to play squishies (For the record, often times I am one of those people. My Blaster is one of my favorite characters to bring on Incarnate trials.) and couldn't afford high survivability builds was more important than the integrity of many of our characters and extended periods of invested time and influence to get those builds and characters to where we have them.
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Strictly true, but there's an implied one that's pretty clear.|
Originally Posted by TwoHeadedBoy
o.o You didn't ask a question.
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| Only after you point out where I accused you of saying that. |
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| Please point out where I said that the attacks shouldn't be powerful? |
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
Oh, the nitpicky question? I didn't think that counted. I said "Haha, alright. Please point out where I said that the attacks shouldn't be powerful?" in response to " if you don't like taking damage,"
To me, saying that I don't like taking damage implied that I was being accused of insinuating that the attacks shouldn't be powerful, so I responded accordingly.
There, now the hardly relevant and extremely trivial question has been answered.
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It's worth pointing out that something like the Keyes damage does not bypass all of a Tanker's survivability. A Tanker is more than just an AT with the strongest self-Defense and self-Resistance buffs. It is also the AT with the highest base HP and the highest HP cap. That means you regen more HP/sec than any other AT with the same +regen applied, and gain more HP for a given self+HP buff percentage.|
Originally Posted by TwoHeadedBoy
So in other words, there are many methods that the dev's can use to completely negate the entire foundation of how we view Archetype survivability, and it's perfectly okay with you for them to use whatever means possible every time they feel like pressing the "I Win" button.
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While Keyes's antimatter damage "cheats" by bypassing your shields, and "cheats" by always dealing damage equal to 50% of your max HP, because a Tanker is the toughest, hardest to kill AT in the game, the Tanker is one of the least likely characters to die because they were reduced to 50% HP. Losing 50% off the top leaves someone like a Blaster or a Stalker in a far more vulnerable position, because all the threats in the trial that are not the antimatter blast are probably more likely to hit them than they are to hit the Tanker, or would hit for more damage, and that damage would be more likely to be most or all of what the Blaster or Stalker have left.
The point is that as much as the AM blast itself may be ignoring AT survivability, the threat in the trial more than the AM blast alone. I don't like the AM blast, but I don't think it really achieves what you say it does, at least to the degree you seem to be arguing.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
As of right now the trials are difficult to fail, at least BAF and Lambda and that's why people are doing them, to get guaranteed rewards. You bring up the example of having the need for ice shields and I will in no way sit around for a trial that is looking for a player with cold domination just as I won't hang around on a team that is looking for a specific AT or a "healer".
The game has gone through an evolution of getting harder (power nerfs, enhancement diversification) then getting easier (IOs, shortening of TF length). As Arcanaville pointed out the rules have been in place they just haven't been used. More people would get upset if the rest of the game (1-50) started using all the rules to win instead of using it as a way to make the game increasingly more difficult (however mauraders is pretty much trivial and same thing with the sequestering).
The incarnate content has basically regulated the AT useless, something that has also been talked about in the tankmage thread, but as other ATs become more survivable the more survivable ATs aren't getting as much damage and when untyped attacks come in to play the nigh invincible tank turns into nothing if they don't move out of the way and although it's not "fair" because it takes the tanks main advantage in the game and turns it into nothing, melee characters feel it worse than the other ATs because I can stay at range and being range/energy/s/l capped I laugh off the other attacks, as a blaster. Maybe they should change the tanker set proc into a 33% chance to avoid special attacks, (a 33% chance for 100% special resist every time the proc fires or something along those lines) You get your more survivable tank and it doesn't break the game mechanics.
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Ice Shields were just a popular example of one of the many powers that can be used to increase player survivability. I didn't feel like giving a whole list every time I made the reference, but I do agree with you that there is no end all power or support class that is needed (or should be needed) to accomplish anything.|
Originally Posted by B_Nix
As of right now the trials are difficult to fail, at least BAF and Lambda and that's why people are doing them, to get guaranteed rewards. You bring up the example of having the need for ice shields and I will in no way sit around for a trial that is looking for a player with cold domination just as I won't hang around on a team that is looking for a specific AT or a "healer".
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| The game has gone through an evolution of getting harder (power nerfs, enhancement diversification) then getting easier (IOs, shortening of TF length). As Arcanaville pointed out the rules have been in place they just haven't been used. More people would get upset if the rest of the game (1-50) started using all the rules to win instead of using it as a way to make the game increasingly more difficult (however mauraders is pretty much trivial and same thing with the sequestering). |
To me, players would be more likely to improve in skill and become more familiar with what they are capable of withstanding and achieving in addition to becoming more mindful of what a wide variety of team mates can bring to a table, but instead we are forced to resign ourselves to "That attack takes half your health," or "that attack leaves you with 1 HP," regardless of how well-planned your buffs are or how strategically you've built your character to not only withstand damage but perhaps also protect others (in the form of a support class- be it a tanker or buffer.)
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Or, you could deal with many of those via tactics! Nova Fist you can easily deal with, same for the energy siphon and sequestering (sequestering is the easiest to overlook, IMO with all the animations I never noticed any warnings or even the circles).| but instead we are forced to resign ourselves to "That attack takes half your health," or "that attack leaves you with 1 HP," regardless of how well-planned your buffs are or how strategically you've built your character to not only withstand damage but perhaps also protect others (in the form of a support class- be it a tanker or buffer |
Back in the STF, the Devs had already tried to do a similar thing, with Ghost Widow's mag 100 hold... (un)fortunately, they seemed to have underestimated the playerbase's ability to stack mez protection, as well as come up with other tricks (hence why sequestering is 50x as potent!).
Still can't comment on Keyes, no one runs it on Freedom and that's the only place I have 50s atm, even though it's far from the only server I play on (people form MoKeyes all the time on Virtue it would appear- I see it being broadcast in global as much as if not more than the other iTrials there!).
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Originally Posted by ShadowNate
;_; ?!?! What the heck is wrong with you, my god, I have never been so confused in my life!
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Because no one ever gets lag?|
Originally Posted by Kitsune Knight
Or, you could deal with many of those via tactics! Nova Fist you can easily deal with,
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That's the main thing I don't like about that attack. For anyone who's experiencing very much slowdown, it becomes something like a luck-based mission.
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So uh, what you're saying is it's not acceptable for any enemy to do more damage than a squishy's max HP, because that would actually do significant damage to a Tank. Really what you're saying is that nothing should be capable of actually hurting a Tank, because anything that could do that would be destroying non-Tank ATs which would be too close to dealing "fixed damage indiscriminately."|
Originally Posted by TwoHeadedBoy
And myself and many others are of the opinion that tanks are tanks and high survivability builds are highly survivable for a reason. The minute you start dealing a fixed amount of damage indiscriminately across everyone regardless of the strengths and weaknesses of their build or Archetype is the minute those things become totally irrelevant and the very fundamentals of having builds and archetypes in the first place is called into question.
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You're also saying that having just one scenario, or even one single power in a fight, completely invalidates the point of your entire character. I already went over how designing an entire encounter around untyped damage is stupid (Hamidon) but having one single power in an entire trial does not invalidate your build or AT.
Your character is basically invincible in all other content other than this one power that one guy does. You want to be able to ignore that too. What you're literally saying is you don't want Tanks to be able to be killed. By anything.
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Originally Posted by PRAF68_EU
Dispari has more than enough credability, and certainly doesn't need to borrow any from you.
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I don't want a tanker built for survivability with a massively-expensive perfectly-engineered IOd-to-the-gills build and all the survival-focused incarnate abilities and crafted temporary powers ... to be defeated by a single power. Period.|
Originally Posted by Dispari
Your character is basically invincible in all other content other than this one power that one guy does. You want to be able to ignore that too. What you're literally saying is you don't want Tanks to be able to be killed. By anything.
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If I build to survive anything, pouring every possible resource into surviving anything, then being able to one-shot my survivor can and does invalidate the purpose behind all the effort I've poured into the character. Why? Because my survivor isn't a survivor anymore and there is nothing I can do about it but swallow, smile and ask for more. (Or refuse to do the content with the one-shot/one-kill powers in it. This rapidly proves unacceptable.)
It makes me feel cheated, like my accomplishment has been taken away from me and is very discouraging ... because we know they are going to introduce more like that as they make new content. It is never "only once" and that makes it unavoidable if you want to do the new content.
My survive-anything can't survive everything. And I don't like that one bit.
In fact, there's no such thing as untyped damage. That damage is normally typed "Special" or "Unique." If I wanted to hit you really hard through your expensive resistances, I can:
1. Type the damage "Special" which you have no resistance for.
2. Type the damage Radiation which you have no resistance for.**
3. Type the damage Lethal but just make it unresistable.
4. Increase the attack to Scale 20 which will hit you really hard even at capped resistances, and everyone else it will one-shot.
5. Mez you and watch your toggles fall.
Take all of those options away, and I can keep coming up with more. The fact is there's no "rules" that say critters can't hit hard, that they cannot mez you with a higher mag of mez than you have protection, that damage cannot be typed with a type you don't have resistance to. What you seem to be saying is if you build something that is indestructible, the devs have to honor that and continue to allow you to be indestructible. That the critters cannot improve along with you, and become more lethal than you become resilient.
There are no such rules. If I'm the designer and I want to bring your multi-billion incarnate build to its knees, there are no rules that can stop me. All you can do is make it take increasingly more time to design. This is not a simulation. The mechanics are there to express intent. If my intent is to kill you, the mechanics of the game can't save you. If my intent is to hit you hard enough to threaten your life with high levels of damage, the mechanics of the game can't protect you. All you're doing is choosing the method of your injury, not the magnitude. Thinking that if the damage was resistable you'd get hit less hard misses the point. The devs don't give critters damage to give them damage. They give them damage to hurt you. They will continue to increase the level of damage until they hurt you as much as they intend to, no matter what your resistances are.
** Remember: I know the rules: there is such a thing as Radiation typed damage. At the moment, nothing fires it. That doesn't mean it doesn't exist.
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