What is your position on untyped damage in Incarnate content?
By
Aneko,
Posted on: 2011-08-23 20:16 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
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That would make for an interesting iTrial.
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Originally Posted by EvilRyu
Not really when all it takes is for the AV to break wind in our direction and the whole team is dead.
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warning: Marauder has eaten tacos. Back away.
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Originally Posted by arcanaville
that would make for an interesting itrial.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Softcapping an Invuln is fantastic. Softcapping a Willpower is amazing. Softcapping SR is kissing your sister.
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Wow, you are very good at completely not understanding a word that I said. Since when does scaling damage appropriately across builds and AT's equate to "not hurting" or even "not doing significant damage?" From where I'm sitting, losing half my HP from Nova Fist on a character with beyond softcapped defense to all positions and hardcapped resists is still a pretty friggin' significant amount of damage.|
Originally Posted by Dispari
So uh, what you're saying is it's not acceptable for any enemy to do more damage than a squishy's max HP, because that would actually do significant damage to a Tank. Really what you're saying is that nothing should be capable of actually hurting a Tank, because anything that could do that would be destroying non-Tank ATs which would be too close to dealing "fixed damage indiscriminately."
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Also, something to keep in mind is that Tanks are just a prime example of some of the characters and builds to which I am referring. Heck, I don't even play tanks.
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| You're also saying that having just one scenario, or even one single power in a fight, completely invalidates the point of your entire character. I already went over how designing an entire encounter around untyped damage is stupid (Hamidon) but having one single power in an entire trial does not invalidate your build or AT. |
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| Your character is basically invincible in all other content other than this one power that one guy does. You want to be able to ignore that too. What you're literally saying is you don't want Tanks to be able to be killed. By anything. |
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Maurauder isn't any more of a lackey than we are. And he isn't any less of a god than we are.
| Why is it that a lacky is able to cut through the very foundation of player survivability, nonetheless against characters who are supposed to be Gods? It's one of the most self defeating concepts in the game. |
Mission Arc: Metatronic Mayhem (Id 1750): A tale of robots gone wrong, rogue robots gone right, and madmen gone every which way but loose.
I personaly am of the opinion that there should be no untyped damage.
Thats the reason players have powers called Invulnerability or Superior Reflexes or can use a force fields int he first place....players are not supposed to start as superman and work their way down to clark kent....they are supposed to evolve and progress. and eventulay if the devlopers wnat to really do it correctly have the characters retire or reach the end of their carreer in a way that makes them feel they accomplished something.
It makes me think the characters are suddenly complete idiots when they do trials like the Keyes Trial for example.
There you are a Tank with powers to help you survive a a nuclear blast yet you die stupidly from something your powers wont suddenly protect you from?!? Since when did damage resistance all not work?
You have learned to put force fields on others and to stop all forms of damage but for some reason you suddenly no longer can do that?!? Again since when does resistance to all not work anymore?
You specialize in avoiding damage with almost preternatural acuity. You even learned that there are basicaly three forms of damage to worry about....melee, ranged and area of effect....yet suddenly you cant avoid the damage pulses?!? yah so since when does you have the ability to dodge all stop working?
If anything the Keyes trial doesnt make you feel super....it makes you fell like a lemming.....might as well make a bot program to do the thing for you....since its all about trial and error with no actual skill involved.
The develoeprs just dont understand the forced build technique at all.
I mean thats the concept for most high end content in games whether they be table top or not...
To understand....thats where you force the players into some situation that may in fact seam like the keyes trial or make them super weak.....but....what is added is other play missions and adventures that offer ways to bypass that system.
In other words you are litteraly forcing the players to build immunities or ways to damage a target becasue the players will always want an easy way to do it.
Thus you can literaly put in a bunch of things...which players will strive to complete or do in order to reach that goal...you can even make players do old content they might have avoided before.
In this game...the developers for whatever reason dont have ways to bypass that untyped damage in the keyes trial right now....which is bad.....what they should do is have items or powers that can be gotten some differing way to allow the players to feel like they are accomplishing something....
Nothing makes players feel more accomplished then when they figure out how to beat something in a trivial fashion....and can then lord it over other players who have not done the same thing.
To give examples of players doing this currently look through the forums about people defeating archvillains solo or with a friend....or doing things super fast....the players in question went to the trouble to get nukes from some other place...or got temp powers to summon shivans from somewhere else....
Those are good examples of forced building....the developers exponentialy increased content by making players go to other content and completing it so they could do differing content more easily.
Heck i am shocked they dont let players use that crazy drainig power they get from the Kahn Task force use them to do things to the incarnate enemies they run into....that woould make alot of people start doing the Kahn Task force for that power.
They could also make those healing things fromthe terra volta reactor work to prevent damage during the keys trial or something.....ie. they would litteraly in a round about way force players to go to the terra volta trial to get items to use inthe game later.
In doing that they could make smaller content things but increase everyone's playtime....with alot of players felling really special becasue they happned to have those items or powers or whatever and used them or found out about them.
Yah forgot to mention....with things like that its good to drop alot of clues pointing the fact some powers and things can be used in multiple ways...becasue too many players simply skip what they feel is flavor text...so they miss alot of things.
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You haven't seen enough builds.
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Originally Posted by TwoHeadedBoy
Once again: Take any purple and PVP IO-shinied character, put it up against +4x8 Arachnos, and they sure as hell aren't going to be invincible...
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
You haven't seen enough builds.
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:| If you can show me a single character that can farm 54x8 Arachnos like it's nothing, I will never disagree with you when you follow me around the forums and argue with me again.
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My DM/Inv brute can do it. It's not farm level "Turn mind off" like Nem/Demon/Ambush farm, but Arachnos are nowhere near the hardest level 54 group. PPD, Longbow, and Vanguard Sword are dramatically harder for different legitimate reasons. All Arachnos has is one debuff that can ruin a defense character and the spike of Banes.|
Originally Posted by TwoHeadedBoy
:| If you can show me a single character that can farm 54x8 Arachnos like it's nothing, I will never disagree with you when you follow me around the forums and argue with me again.
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Heck, I'm more then certain that if I walked in with half a tray of purples and the other yellows, I can probably farm Arachnos too, though it'd be much slower due to being DM as opposed to SS or Fire.
Edit: Realize that "Farm like it's nothing" is an extremely hard to meet qualifier, simply because it assumes no room for error. It's possible to die on any farm, even those you sleep walk, whether through veng stacking, a lucky streak, lag, or just plain inattention. I'm fairly certain that a very large portion of top end builds can farm Arachnos, Short of falling asleep as a Granite tank, most builds can have their day ruined on any given group just because the dice fell a certain way.
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okay, 1 out of 3
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Originally Posted by EvilRyu
Kryptonite and magic were just plot devices that were added because they made superman too powerful to begin with. If he wasnt overpowered there would not be a need for this in the first place.
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but what about Colossus or Achilles >.>
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Originally Posted by EvilRyu
Kryptonite and magic were just plot devices that were added because they made superman too powerful to begin with. If he wasnt overpowered there would not be a need for this in the first place.
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First of all, you've done nothing so far but to further my point that there are many enemy groups in normal content who can pose a threat to players without cheating. Based on this quote, you only disagree with my using Arachnos as a prime example..|
Originally Posted by Kenteko
My DM/Inv brute can do it. It's not farm level "Turn mind off" like Nem/Demon/Ambush farm, but Arachnos are nowhere near the hardest level 54 group. PPD, Longbow, and Vanguard Sword are dramatically harder for different legitimate reasons. All Arachnos has is one debuff that can ruin a defense character and the spike of Banes.
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However, I can entertain that. Arachnos not only debuff defense... They also stack layers of Mez (which can even break through t4 Clarion status Protection... Trust me I know) AND sap your endurance to boot. I'm assuming your "one debuff" is the defense debuff that they are capable of stacking enough on 54x8 to bring a softcapped character's defenses down to next-to-nothing.
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| Heck, I'm more then certain that if I walked in with half a tray of purples and the other yellows, I can probably farm Arachnos too, though it'd be much slower due to being DM as opposed to SS or Fire. |
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| Edit: Realize that "Farm like it's nothing" is an extremely hard to meet qualifier, simply because it assumes no room for error. It's possible to die on any farm, even those you sleep walk, whether through veng stacking, a lucky streak, lag, or just plain inattention. I'm fairly certain that a very large portion of top end builds can farm Arachnos, Short of falling asleep as a Granite tank, most builds can have their day ruined on any given group just because the dice fell a certain way. |
Let me rephrase, then: Do either of you believe that there are characters who can farm extremely challenging enemies such as Arachnos, Policebringers, and the others that you so graciously provided my point with and not feel challenged?
These things were all brought up to prove the point I was trying to make: The game is completely capable of offering challenges to even the best built characters without breaking the player conceived concepts of survivability.
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Mez stacking on Arachnos is mostly negligible compared to basically any other group that has mezzes. Carnies and Malta do it better, and tend to offer equal to legitimate threat to Arachnos. Also, if I remember correctly, the debuff in question comes from Tarantula Mistresses, i.e. just hit them and move on with life.|
Originally Posted by TwoHeadedBoy
First of all, you've done nothing so far but to further my point that there are many enemy groups in normal content who can pose a threat to players without cheating. Based on this quote, you only disagree with my using Arachnos as a prime example..
However, I can entertain that. Arachnos not only debuff defense... They also stack layers of Mez (which can even break through t4 Clarion status Protection... Trust me I know) AND sap your endurance to boot. I'm assuming your "one debuff" is the defense debuff that they are capable of stacking enough on 54x8 to bring a softcapped character's defenses down to next-to-nothing. Let me rephrase, then: Do either of you believe that there are characters who can farm extremely challenging enemies such as Arachnos, Policebringers, and the others that you so graciously provided my point with and not feel challenged? These things were all brought up to prove the point I was trying to make: The game is completely capable of offering challenges to even the best built characters without breaking the player conceived concepts of survivability. |
As for the remaining factions, I've never once said that enemy groups couldn't be challenging in this game utilizing "fair" means. The problem is that of the three I mentioned, two outright cheat (PPD and Vanguard Sword) and the Longbow is about the only group that basically hits every defensive hole at once. Technically speaking, the only two groups in this game that can present a legitimate challenge WITHOUT cheating are Rularuu and Longbow, and even that falls apart the second you go to a number higher than one. Nevermind that fighting x8 groups with an actual group of 8 is a hilarious steamroll no matter what group you fight.
You lost track of the topic a long time ago, and now you're arguing a position that is completely and utterly different from your original one. +4/x8 is certainly capable of providing challenge BECAUSE you're one person fighting against stuff that may purple patch you and is balanced around seven more people. Of course you're gonna run into situations where you run into Carnies and three MIs dump out their armies while phased, and suddenly you're at -tohit cap, mezzed, and likely dead. This goes all the way back to untyped damage again, because save for chomping down BFs/Elusive Mind and hoping the Ageless DDR is enough, you're six levels of hosed if you luck bends you over.
You're not making any points by arguing that +4/x8 is hard or can be hard, it's like saying water is wet. In these situations, people run those BECAUSE it offers them challenge (or a heightened reward), which is an option that they cannot access in other areas of the game, namely trials. Even then, the challenge vanishes like a fart in the wind the second virtually any other person is added, and it tends to get easier with more bodies.
Intelligent mechanics are a balancing factor that creates new challenges that nobody really cared about before progress was linked to it. That's arguably why Eden and the Abandoned Sewer trial can still be challenging in today's game, and why people typically never, ever run them.
Your problem isn't, and has never been, about untyped damage or "fake challenge," because if it was, you would've mentioned the obvious ones and not a middle of the road group as a standard. Your problem is with poorly used mechanics that add nothing to game and screw everyone (or certain people) specifically.
By the way, I really want to drive home how much it shows what your concept of unfair is that you used Arachnos as an unfair group when things like MIs, Quartzes, Overseers, Puke Bombs, Vanguard Blade, and a wide variety of other stuff exists that literally bend over and sodomize certain builds. I'm not trying to be offensive here, but it's kinda evident in the grand scheme of things.
To me, untyped damage is more about disparities between individual defense power sets than between archetypes. If the reactor pulse did Energy damage instead of untyped damage, then Electric Armor would laugh it off, for example. The devs seem to use untyped damage for effects they want everyone to have to pay attention to, regardless of their degree or type of defense: Battle Maiden's nanite thingies, Nova Fist, reactor pulses, etc.
Thematically, there's a fair argument that Electric Armor SHOULD laugh off reactor pulses, that's kind of the point of the set after all. But in this case the dev team appears to have chosen gameplay over thematics.
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I don't want to disagree with your larger point, but at +4/x8, I don't find them this simple to deal with. At +4 LT rank and settings (which often puts them at a net of +3 for my level 50s), I can't both get to them and defeat them before they lay the debuff on me. It's autohit and it's always the first power they use. The problem then is that I am at around -30% defense (less if I have DDR) in the middle of all the other Arachnos making up that spawn. And that assumes that there is only one Tarantula Mistress in the spawn - something I frequently find untrue at x8 team sizes. Having two (or more rarely, three) in a spawn is extraordinarily painful.|
Originally Posted by Kenteko
Mez stacking on Arachnos is mostly negligible compared to basically any other group that has mezzes. Carnies and Malta do it better, and tend to offer equal to legitimate threat to Arachnos. Also, if I remember correctly, the debuff in question comes from Tarantula Mistresses, i.e. just hit them and move on with life.
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Edit: popping luck inspirations works well, but at LT rank, I find most spawns have a Tarantula Mistress in them. I seem to have crummy, well, luck getting luck inspirations to drop when I want them. Playing my missions against Arachnos as defeat-all, I tend to run out of them.
I think SR and Shields, with their high available Defense Debuff Resistance, have the best chance of shrugging these nasty debuffs off, depending on how much buffer defense they have over the softcap. The biggest threat beyond the Mistress' debuff is the occasional non-positional Psi used by Fortunata Mistesses, which do spawn less commonly than Tarantula Mistresses.
Unless I'm forgetting someone with high DDR, everyone else is still going to be pushed way down from the softcap by any one Tarantula Mistress debuff while facing a very high damage NPC faction. Any Longfangs in the spawn will likely exacerbate the issue by landing additional debuffs.
Now, all that said, I have still fought Arachnos on these settings on a variety of characters. Depending on the characters, it can result in multiple defeats per mission where my norm is to suffer no defeats. It almost always involves some running around trying to wait for debuffs to expire. As you say, though, there are other NPC groups that are similarly painful, depending on powerset. Longbow give many of my characters fits, as can Vanguard. Fighting the IDF feels a lot like fighting Arachnos, with less Fire damage and more Energy.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
Reactor pulses makes sense, we have ticks of damage in the terra volta reactor too, the pulses just are a major release instead of the ticks in my mind.
The autohit of the turrets makes sense too (ultra advanced targeting system with a high to hit but I don't think they should be auto hit (5% chance of missing seems reasonable)
Sequestering I'm going to ignore because it's an AV focusing all their ability to mez a person that it spills over to those around the person
Nova fist seems to be the lynch pin of this argument which I view as a release of power that causes everything around maurader to get hit.
The OHKO +1hp or leaving a certain percentage is also a problem which I actually agree with and if they change it to 2500 damage and flooring regen -1000% (you got your bell rung) I would like it better, that way an hp capped tank can take the hit but have huge penalty for it. Honestly though getting your bell rung and making it 2500 damage with a mag 50 disorient would work as well.
I don't mind auto hit, I don't like the percentage thing but part of that has to do with the OHKO rule and if nova fist is designed to do 5000 damage but due to the OHKO rule anything not a full health will die which isn't bad in my mind.
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In all fairness, I qualify Arachnos in the "Tough but fair" category, along the lines of, say, Malta. They're rough sailing due to having varied and rare damage types (psychic, toxic, lethal, etc), but at the same time, only banes really put out noticeable damage and the rest are either a speed bump or a way to allow the banes to do more damage. Compare them to Longbow, which I put on the very high end of the "Tough but fair spectrum" which has tons of -regen (in the spec ops), diversity and support in the bosses, and LTs that ALWAYS appear and throw out three -20% res grenades. It's pretty much guaranteed to be their first action, and they make even the minions do dangerous damage.|
Originally Posted by UberGuy
I don't want to disagree with your larger point, but at +4/x8, I don't find them this simple to deal with. At +4 LT rank and settings (which often puts them at a net of +3 for my level 50s), I can't both get to them and defeat them before they lay the debuff on me. It's autohit and it's always the first power they use. The problem then is that I am at around -30% defense (less if I have DDR) in the middle of all the other Arachnos making up that spawn. And that assumes that there is only one Tarantula Mistress in the spawn - something I frequently find untrue at x8 team sizes. Having two (or more rarely, three) in a spawn is extraordinarily painful.
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I'm not saying Arachnos is a walk in the park, far from it, but they present the same danger as the Malta Sapper: A clear target that diverts the real strength of the group away from it. In the case of Malta, it's the Gunslinger/stun spam and in the case of Arachnos it's the banes. Sure, both Tarantula Mistresses and Sappers suck, but they're just dirty, dirty enablers.
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Cheating in a sense that they use autohit debuffs? That's hardly equivalent to indiscriminately taking an equal amount of health from all characters. Those defense debuffs are still going to scale appropriately because different sets/builds/etc have different starting defense.|
Originally Posted by Kenteko
Mez stacking on Arachnos is mostly negligible compared to basically any other group that has mezzes. Carnies and Malta do it better, and tend to offer equal to legitimate threat to Arachnos. Also, if I remember correctly, the debuff in question comes from Tarantula Mistresses, i.e. just hit them and move on with life.
As for the remaining factions, I've never once said that enemy groups couldn't be challenging in this game utilizing "fair" means. The problem is that of the three I mentioned, two outright cheat (PPD and Vanguard Sword) and the Longbow is about the only group that basically hits every defensive hole at once. Technically speaking, the only two groups in this game that can present a legitimate challenge WITHOUT cheating are Rularuu and Longbow, and even that falls apart the second you go to a number higher than one. Nevermind that fighting x8 groups with an actual group of 8 is a hilarious steamroll no matter what group you fight. |
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| You lost track of the topic a long time ago, and now you're arguing a position that is completely and utterly different from your original one. |
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| +4/x8 is certainly capable of providing challenge BECAUSE you're one person fighting against stuff that may purple patch you and is balanced around seven more people. Of course you're gonna run into situations where you run into Carnies and three MIs dump out their armies while phased, and suddenly you're at -tohit cap, mezzed, and likely dead. This goes all the way back to untyped damage again, because save for chomping down BFs/Elusive Mind and hoping the Ageless DDR is enough, you're six levels of hosed if you luck bends you over. You're not making any points by arguing that +4/x8 is hard or can be hard, it's like saying water is wet. In these situations, people run those BECAUSE it offers them challenge (or a heightened reward), which is an option that they cannot access in other areas of the game, namely trials. |
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| Even then, the challenge vanishes like a fart in the wind the second virtually any other person is added, and it tends to get easier with more bodies. |
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Intelligent mechanics are a balancing factor that creates new challenges that nobody really cared about before progress was linked to it. That's arguably why Eden and the Abandoned Sewer trial can still be challenging in today's game, and why people typically never, ever run them. Your problem isn't, and has never been, about untyped damage or "fake challenge," because if it was, you would've mentioned the obvious ones and not a middle of the road group as a standard. Your problem is with poorly used mechanics that add nothing to game and screw everyone (or certain people) specifically. |
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| By the way, I really want to drive home how much it shows what your concept of unfair is that you used Arachnos as an unfair group when things like MIs, Quartzes, Overseers, Puke Bombs, Vanguard Blade, and a wide variety of other stuff exists that literally bend over and sodomize certain builds. I'm not trying to be offensive here, but it's kinda evident in the grand scheme of things. |
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PPD have autohit, unresistable, aoe puke, are the hardest defense cascaders in the game, and have ridiculously high resists AND a self rez to boot. Vanguard minions have massive quantities of -res and -def, and if I remember correctly, have very high perception and may even have a tohit bonus. The -50 max end isn't exactly sunshine and cupcakes either.|
Originally Posted by TwoHeadedBoy
Cheating in a sense that they use autohit debuffs? That's hardly equivalent to indiscriminately taking an equal amount of health from all characters. Those defense debuffs are still going to scale appropriately because different sets/builds/etc have different starting defense.
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I also want to make a specific point of defense debuff scaling. If you don't have DDR or you're a resist based set, defense debuffs screw you as much or more simply because it's very possible to enter a situation where there is nothing you can do as a group systematically dismantles you, auto hits everything they do, and either detoggles you or just flat out outdamages you. I also want to make mention that the ONLY debuffs present in Arachnos come from Tarantula Mistresses (the LTs), Night Widow (smoke grenade, which is defeated by a little yellow) and Bane LTs and Bosses (Poisonous Ray). If you simply lack the capability to manage Arachnos or at least attack and kill the stuff that you know is a danger to you, I'm not sure where to take the conversation to.
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Originally Posted by TwoHeadedBoy
Umm, no I didn't. My position on the topic from the start was that "special" incarnate damage was unfair and it negated the concept of survivability. Then, people said things along the lines of "it needs to work that way in order for it to provide a challenge" to which i responded that normal content is perfectly capable of providing a challenge to even the best builds without using these mechanics.
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Originally Posted by TwoHeadedBoy
It's not all dependent on luck, a lot of it is also based on strategy and proper timing. The reason why I brought up soloing is because people were saying things like "oh, some people are invincible anyways, there is no challenge in the game for them if these special Incarnate mechanics aren't used." I was simply using this point to illustrate that this is not the case at all.
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Originally Posted by TwoHeadedBoy
Maybe I have a problem with both? This entire point you're trying to make is based 100% on perspective and you're trying to push it off like it's a standard. On my Warshade, I have more trouble with Arachnos than anything else. They stack so much mez it's even cut through my tier 4 Clarion. They have gotten my defenses down to the negative numbers and then sucked out all my endurance to boot... That combination is really what kills me. I've soloed +4x8 Longbow and Malta with quite a bit of difficulty, but Arachnos is a challenge I've yet to overcome. The Longbow don't seem to mess with my Endurance and Malta don't seem to mess with my defense to the same extent in both departments. Arachnos also seem to have the most devastating mez.
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Originally Posted by TwoHeadedBoy
Got it, you don't think Arachnos are a good example of a challenging enemy group... But that does nothing to disprove my ultimate point that there is plenty of challenge in the game that doesn't use unfair super mechanics in order to screw everyone over "equally." I don't know why you're so hung up on not liking my example... At this point, it's just giving the impression that proving that Arachnos aren't challenging is the only leg you have left to stand on in your attempt to discredit my opinions.
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The problem I still have with this continued argument is that you're acting as though the untyped damage in trials and task forces is completely unavoidable and therefore unfair. You keep talking about how no matter how great the Tank is -- including arguments about Tanks that can solo +4/x8 Arachnos -- he's going to get one-shotted. But the character I usually take to trials is a Widow with 1400 HP and 0% RES, and she doesn't get killed by Marauder.|
Originally Posted by TwoHeadedBoy
Cheating in a sense that they use autohit debuffs? That's hardly equivalent to indiscriminately taking an equal amount of health from all characters. Those defense debuffs are still going to scale appropriately because different sets/builds/etc have different starting defense.
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Because... all it takes to avoid the untyped damage that Marauder does, or the nuke patches in an Apex, is to follow directions and not stand there. I wouldn't even call that a strategy since it doesn't require coordination or instructions from your peers. All you have to do is follow the instructions and not stand there. So the repeated insistence that it's cheating and unfair makes me wonder why, exactly, you can't just move. Or alternately, why your argument really boils down to "I want to not move and still not die." Because really all the untyped damage presented thus far outside of Hamidon is easily avoidable.
And really, what you're actually complaining about is that despite your defenses and HP you're getting dropped to 1 HP. Even before trials, that could happen to my Widow all the time. BABs even before he chugs beer can do that. Hell, if a Knives boss crits they can drop my Widow to 1 HP. So I'm guessing it's only unfair when enemies do that to Tanks. Because it's business as usual for my Widow, and I don't consider it unfair when an AV drops her to 1 HP. Would it make you feel better if instead of doing untyped damage he simply did 50,000 base damage so you still get one-shotted anyway?
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Originally Posted by PRAF68_EU
Dispari has more than enough credability, and certainly doesn't need to borrow any from you.
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I don't care if the damage is typed or untyped. If too many players die running something, it gets labeled "unfun" and will not be run. The devs know this.
BaF's and Lambdas get run ad naseum because the level of death in them is not "too high". It's just right. ITF's used to be just right but are becoming too easy.
Keyes never gets run because people die too fast and its not fun. I know its not fun, because I never get asked to join one. I've never even been on one, and I know it stinks. On Victory, no one plays Keyes. Its probably the same on other servers.
How do the developers deal with that? Thats the real question we need answered.
Do you think they like developing content no one plays? What will they do to get people to play it more? Make it so only tankers and scrappers and brutes can play it? I don't think so. Make it so only Tier 4's across the board can play it? Boy, I hope not. Then we will be playing WoW and we just won't know it.
-Largo
Founder of A.G.O.N.Y. Supergroup on Victory
Member of Thought Sanctum VG on Victory
Member of St0rm Batallion SG on Guardian
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I'm fine with it, as long as they don't start making everything untyped damage. An untyped attack here and there is okay. | What is your position on untyped damage in Incarnate content? |
They should maybe add an enhancement like Essence of the Earth that lets you resist the untyped damage.
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
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At the moment it's so uncommon (and easy to avoid) that I don't think it warrants anything special. If later incarnate stuff starts making it a lot more common I'd imagine a future incarnate level would give us some RES to incarnate-specific attacks like that.
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Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
I'm fine with it, as long as they don't start making everything untyped damage. An untyped attack here and there is okay.
They should maybe add an enhancement like Essence of the Earth that lets you resist the untyped damage. |
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Originally Posted by PRAF68_EU
Dispari has more than enough credability, and certainly doesn't need to borrow any from you.
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To the OP's OP: I've got no problems with it whatsoever. To the OP's subsequent posts, I'm not sure what point you are making (or even if you are making one!). Rules change in this game all the time, I'm guessing because the makers of the game want to keep it balanced and entertaining for as many people as possible. ED was not popular back way back when, but in retrospect the rule change made the game much stronger and was in my opinion a primary reason the game has made it this far!
One thing I really don't understand is why you care at all about how much you spent on your build versus what someone else did, or about how squishy you are versus they are in PvE. We are all on the same side, and we're not keeping score again each other, right? Or am I missing something important?
Ooh, a sarcasm detector. Oh, that's a *real* useful invention. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/technolog...t-sarcasm.html
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I really hate that you're still talking about this, I feel like I made it pretty clear in my last post that your perception of difficult enemies is ultimately just that: A matter of perception. |
Originally Posted by Kenteko
I also want to make a specific point of defense debuff scaling. If you don't have DDR or you're a resist based set, defense debuffs screw you as much or more simply because it's very possible to enter a situation where there is nothing you can do as a group systematically dismantles you, auto hits everything they do, and either detoggles you or just flat out outdamages you. I also want to make mention that the ONLY debuffs present in Arachnos come from Tarantula Mistresses (the LTs), Night Widow (smoke grenade, which is defeated by a little yellow) and Bane LTs and Bosses (Poisonous Ray). If you simply lack the capability to manage Arachnos or at least attack and kill the stuff that you know is a danger to you, I'm not sure where to take the conversation to.
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To clarify, earlier today I ran my survivor, who is a Tri Form Warshade, through two different missions. One was +4x8 PPD and the other was +4x8 Arachnos. My build is one with Perma Eclipse (Capped resistances at 85%, to all damage, throughout both exercises) and features 21% s/l defense and 16.5% melee defense. The PPD were dealt with on Cruise Control. I don't think I struggled a single time throughout the whole mission... I killed or mezzed them all before the defense debuffs could become an issue.
The Arachnos, on the other hand, once again managed to not only stack enough mez to break through my t4 Clarion, but also sapped my endurance to boot. I was rendered helpless and stunned/etc, only to be defeated through my rezzing and indulgent usage of inspirations.
Bottom line: For my survivor, Arachnos are much tougher to handle than PPD. That may not match your experience, and that's fine. I'll also let you know that this same build has soloed +4x8 Malta, with more difficulty than PPD, but still cannot manage the same on Arachnos.
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| Apples and oranges. Incarnate trials are built around groups, "challenging solo content" is built around, well, being solo. Every single group with the potential exception of PPD and Vanguard Blade are a hilarious walk in the park for even half a group, save for extreme situations like all 8 members being at aggro cap. |
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| It's even funnier when you realize that Nova Fist doesn't really offer a challenge at all, seeing as how Lambda was already duoed. If you're going to utilize a standard of challenge that already exists, you have to point to group content when comparing group content. Eden, Abandoned Sewers, LRSF, and STF are all challenging in their own right, but the only one that is outright challenging with zero gimmicks is LRSF. There's a reason for this, and it has nothing to do with debuffs. |
That doesn't mean I'm unwilling to do trials, or that I don't do them regularly. It just means that I don't like the mechanic.
(Skipping part of your post because I don't think your carnie rant can even be worded into relevance.)
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| Except the only incarnate trial that even bothers to cross with both is Keyes, as has been pointed out in better detail. Nova Fist is only a problem if you're playing on 56k, have 2 second reaction times, and were using Energy Transfer at the same time. Even then, the mechanics are only unfair because of the goal of the trial (tank AM and drag him to terminals) more then they are unfair because of AT. |
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Originally Posted by Yomo_Kimyata
To the OP's OP: I've got no problems with it whatsoever. To the OP's subsequent posts, I'm not sure what point you are making (or even if you are making one!). Rules change in this game all the time, I'm guessing because the makers of the game want to keep it balanced and entertaining for as many people as possible. ED was not popular back way back when, but in retrospect the rule change made the game much stronger and was in my opinion a primary reason the game has made it this far!
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| One thing I really don't understand is why you care at all about how much you spent on your build versus what someone else did, or about how squishy you are versus they are in PvE. We are all on the same side, and we're not keeping score again each other, right? Or am I missing something important? |
I invested in my blaster so that he could maximize his damage while retaining *decent* survivability in most content. The same can be said for my Scrapper, though with more of the latter. I spent a good amount of inf. on both builds.
However, my Warshade is my ultimate survivor. Plainly put, I do not think it's fair at all for him to be dealt the exact same amount of damage from any attack in the game as my blaster, who sits at 32.5% s/l/e/n/r defense with no resistances to speak of. My Warshade has died/been just as injured from the exact same attacks as my blaster with hardcapped 85% Resistances to all damage, and beyond softcapped defenses through Vengeance and team buffs to boot.
We have build/AT strengths for a reason, and while I'm not saying that "ZoMgz trialz R 2 Hard" or that I even plan to boycott them (because neither is the case) I still think that this balance should not be something that can be compromised by single rule-breaking attacks.
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