Morganite

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  1. Might be a bug. The tanker proc has gotten unfixed too, and everyone seems pretty sure that's not WAI.

    -Morgan.
  2. Quote:
    Originally Posted by Yogi_Bare View Post
    Taunt effects. Might be interesting to add as an IO proc or an Incarnate Ability side effect.
    Eh, not really what I was thinking of. More on the order of reverse knockback - enemies go flying, but it's towards you instead of away from you.

    (Now that I think about it, an IO that made knockback powers do that could be pretty cool in it's own right...)

    -Morgan.
  3. Quote:
    Originally Posted by Android_5Point9 View Post
    No no no, see, you misread that. I didn't say knockdown, I said knockin. Rather than enemies going away from the attack, they come towards it. Clearly it's the perfect solution that everyone is waiting for. Though, it will likely have to wait until after reverse-butt capes, hair physics for bald characters, and the City of Dogs expansion.
    I don't know what a reverse-butt cape is, but I want one.

    Maybe.

    (... What's a reverse-butt cape anyway?)

    "Attract" sounds like it could actually be a pretty interesting mechanic. Although if it happened it'd probably be a new powerset rather than a conversion IO like this. (Although using something like Gale and having enemies be pulled towards you would be visually amusing...)

    -Morgan.
  4. Quote:
    Originally Posted by DarkBlaster_NA View Post
    Is there any way to elimininate the extra power tray from nova? Due to the sets of binds i've been using for the longest time, it only gets in the way and takes a little bit more of my screen.
    As far as I know there is no way. I posted about this being a problem in the misc. feedback thread, so I'm hoping maybe one will be added sooner or later.

    -Morgan.
  5. Morganite

    My MFing Build

    Well, that amount of defense combined with Eclipse's resistance would make you pretty durable... except that most of it's coming from toggles, so you won't have them in forms. And since forms are where most of your attacks are, it's where you'll probably spend most of your time. And that just won't do.

    Having those toggles as LotG mules is fine. (My build has most of the same powers, in fact.) But if you want defense on a triform, it's pretty much got to be set bonuses. If you, say, put those slots into the PBAoEs for full sets of Obliteration, that'd give you a pretty respectable melee defense. Also some more recharge. You've already got quite a bit of that, but that's okay.

    I'd suggest dropping the Doctered Wounds set in Stygian Circle. It doesn't need that much enhancement, and the set bonuses aren't that exciting. And you should at least put a bit of damage in Black Dwarf Drain.

    Unless you really like having both the starting blasts, you could replace one with Gravity Shield, put one of the +def uniques there, and save a slot.

    -Morgan.
  6. If the time switching forms is the problem, well, that's going away next issue...

    Also, have you tried making a teleport bind? With that it's pretty straightforward. (Not that inclined to take it on any other characters, but hey, it's a free travel power.)

    -Morgan.
  7. Quote:
    Originally Posted by Issen View Post
    But overall, the odds of procs firing on the higher-tier attack chains improves (As demonstrated by Synapse). So why are we complaining?
    In part it depends on what you're using as a basis for comparison. Most things seem to be improving compared to flat-rate procs. Compared to PPM procs as currently implemented... that's more complicated. Some things are improving and some are holding steady, but single-target attacks in general are going to suffer, since it's usually not going to take a whole lot of recharge to drop the cycle time by more than the PPM increase makes up for.

    Of course, that's pretty much one of the *points* of the whole exercise, so it's not all that surprising. Still, the recharge toxicity this can cause is a bit disturbing, even if I don't expect it to be relevant to any of my characters.

    -Morgan.
  8. (UberGuy posted graphs.)

    I'm not quite sure what that has to do with the implied question in my post though. I can calculate proc rates easily enough, but that really doesn't answer the question of "Is this too powerful?" If your second graph is supposed to relate to that... well, I'm really not sure how to interpret it at all. (And I'm also not sure it'd relate all that well to AoE powers, which are the ones I care about.)

    *Feels like she's had parts of this conversation before.*

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by DreadShinobi View Post
    Thing is it is /not/ necessarily increasing the rate you can attack or the amount of DPS you deal. Since we're using FM as an example I'll just stick with that, in a Cremate>Incin>GFS you need 88, 146, and 237% rchg respectively for each of those powers. So for GFS, being the highest recharge requirement you will probably have 89% rchg from enhancements and 70% from hasten, meaning you need 78% from global recharge (not factoring in need for permahasten). If you have 78% global recharge+70% from hasten, that means you already have enough recharge for Cremate and Incinerate without slotting ANY recharge in those powers. Meaning if you do slot any recharge in Cremate or Incinerate (which you likely will for set bonuses) then you WILL BE HURTING YOUR DPS.
    I can't help but notice that even so, if I assume 89% recharge in Cremate and Incinerate, they'll still have a better proc rate under this system than the flat rate procs.

    That being said, I agree that this is a strange effect that it'd probably be better *not* to have, particularly for the way it encourages very strange slotting decisions. But there's no way I can think of for the system to tell "useful" and "not useful" recharge apart... and I don't think "don't change the system at all" is too likely.

    -Morgan.
  9. [QUOTE=Grey Pilgrim;4219261]However, the old system was a lot more clear and easy to follow. PPM and how it is described with procs is terribly done and confusing, and not all entirely because of the language associated with them. "Procs 20 or 30% of the time" is a lot easier to grasp than all the formulating going behind this change. I suppose it's inevitable to balance how differently recharged things are, but I guess I didn't have an issue with procs going more in low recharge powers and less in long recharge ones.[quote]

    It's a fair complaint. But it seems like it's a case of not being able to have something both ways. Either there'll be some math to even out proc rates, or there'll be flat rates that leave some things overpowered and some things underpowered. Even so, the general range proc rates will fall in with this setup is fairly predictable, so I don't think it should be too onerous once everything gets cleaned up. (Although it'd be a really good idea to be able to check what the rate would be before slotting a proc in a power. It'd be even better to be able to do so without having bought a proc yet.)

    Quote:
    Is there any worry that this change will make procs TOO powerful? I see some of the rates being quoted using the formula, and they seem ridiculously high. Maybe it's just my background with procs, but having a better chance for it to go off than not (or almost 100%) seems a bit on the strong side. Just curious.
    I don't really know. I'm definitely thinking this makes them stronger overall, compared to flat-rate procs. (Current PPM procs being more complicated.) But it takes a fairly long cycle time to get those really high rates. I've got a few on one of my characters that are going to get there, but looking at it I don't feel like they end up overshadowing the power itself, which is a point where I might be concerned.

    -Morgan.
  10. Quote:
    Originally Posted by Cyber_naut View Post
    Please point out exactly what part of my post you disagree with and why.
    Sure, why not.

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Cyber_naut View Post
    But it gets more ridiculous. The more you put into your character, the less effective the ios will be for you.
    Which sure sounds like you're working based on the model in Synapse's first post, where global recharge affects proc rates. Which isn't a part of the current proposal, among other changes.

    Or, to put it another way, when you sound like you're making the same arguments again that Synapse already heard, *agreed with*, and made changes based upon, people aren't likely to be impressed.

    Oh, and people do have a problem with the old formula. Namely that some procs were totally worthless under it. This system will make procs more powerful in all sorts of places. (Including, but not limited to, any single-target power with a without-global-recharge cycle time much longer than 3.2 seconds. Oddly, I seem to recall having such powers in a lot of my builds.)

    -Morgan.
  11. Quote:
    Originally Posted by William_Valence View Post
    I wasn't sure if the ATOs will see an increase at all, and I'd seen an unchallenged mention of the increased Purple PPM value. If it stays the same, that'd be the rate, if it went up it'd likely be to match other purple procs.
    Since Synapse's post just says "Increase the PPM value by 20-25%", I'm assuming this applies to ATO procs as well. Although when I look at it, it's kind of odd that currently superior ATO damage procs (or at least, the ones I've been paying attention to) have a higher PPM than purple damage procs.

    Of course it's pretty likely that there's going to be some variances from that, given how theoretical this still is. But I'd be pretty surprised if it ended up being "Everything but ATOs goes up in PPM."

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by firespray View Post
    Well, actually, due to the floor, it probably would help the situation. I'm thinking though of going the other way, and just having them check once, based on the recharge of the power.
    Good point, I'd forgotten about that. Although it'd have to be checked something less than every 6 seconds to be below the floor... I think. Don't know if I'd consider that likely.

    Checking just once... I'm not sure I like it. That level of performance seems reasonable, but I think I'd rather see it stay spread out over multiple checks over the patch's lifetime. (Especially since I *think* that would reduce the performance of procs in patches with longer durations quite noticably.)

    -Morgan.
  12. Quote:
    Originally Posted by William_Valence View Post
    I was using a 5.625PPM proc rate mentioned earlier in the thread. If that's incorrect, then whoops. 5.625 being what the proc rate would be with the same 25% PPM increase that was mentioned for other procs.
    Ah. I was just confused then, because you had the 25% increase included in one example and not another. Looks like you're doing things right then.

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by firespray View Post
    Is that how the PPM procs work now? I'm not sure and that's part of why I'm asking. I also heard several other people ask about whether or not procs would be switching to actual activation time.
    To my knowledge, this is how procs work in patches, whether they are ppm or otherwise. It has, of course, not always been that way, but at some point they decided that having procs checking once every second in caltrops was a bit much. This is consistent with the behavior I've seen for both PPM and flat procs, and I have no reason to believe any changes are intended, since Synapse hasn't said anything about changing it.

    Quote:
    Personally I think using the same 10 second activation time that toggle powers use is kind of unfair to patches, since they can't be turned on all the time,
    I'm not sure the two are really that related, but I'm not sure how much it matters now. Since with the new system, making procs check more often will just drop the proc rate by a similar amount. So, if you think procs in patches are a bit anemic (and I'm not sure I'd disagree with you), that's not the answer.

    -Morgan.
  13. Quote:
    Originally Posted by William_Valence View Post
    First:

    If I've got the numbers right, the 33% proc's chance to fire will be about 18%, and a 5PPM ATO proc would be 16% with 134.81% slotted recharge in flares (That's three lvl50IOs and T4 Spiritual Core) with the chance to proc increasing as the recharge rate goes down.
    The number for a 5 ppm proc looks right if the ppm isn't increased. Which it's expected to be. Based on the last set of equations I'd expect closer to 20%.

    As for, say, Apocalypse, City of Data lists that as 4.5ppm, so it'd be slightly worse. (Which seems a bit peculiar.) So I don't know what you're doing to get 18%.

    -Morgan, can't help but wonder, is that slotting that someone might actually do? o.O
  14. Quote:
    Originally Posted by Agonist_NA View Post
    Warshades can use it too in human and dwarf form, though they don't likely need the +End proc. I prefer Touch of the Nictus anyway, for obvious reasons.
    I've actually been considering it for Black Dwarf Drain, since I sometimes do have end issues if I end up slugging it out against a single hard target. The new build should have fewer problems with that though. *shrug* I could see it having occasional uses anyway.

    -Morgan.
  15. Quote:
    Originally Posted by firespray View Post
    Could we please get some more information on how the PPM procs will work in regards to powers that have both an activation period and a recharge time (i.e. rain of fire, sleet storm, etc.)? I'm unclear on whether the chance to fire will be based on the power's recharge time (and the proc will only be able to fire once), or on the activation time, or on the 10s that it's based on now (meaning the proc will have multiple chances to fire).
    No reason I can think of to expect patch powers to work any differently than they do now - a chance to proc on activation, and every ten seconds thereafter. And I'm also pretty sure that the proc rate would be based on a 10 second cycle time.

    Looks like a lot of those patches are going to suffer a bit compared to flat procs. (16%.) Rain of Fire, for instance, has a pretty sizable AoE mod with that 25 radius. (Radius 20 patches come out about even, and radius 15 ones gain a slight improvement. And they're all better than existing SBE procs would be thanks to the current model reducing the AoE mod and increasing the PPMs.)

    I would expect all of this to hold for toggles as well.

    -Morgan.
  16. Quote:
    Originally Posted by Kyriani View Post
    All I can say is, from observations, it seems to me that this topic simply ignored anyone who wanted things to stay as they were and slowly but surely started a "dialogue" as Synapse plied various formulas and people jumped in to be part of the "creative process" and suddenly people are "excited" about breaking something that works just fine as it is. At least that is how I see it.
    There's one problem with that though: The way a lot of people saw it, SBE procs did not work just fine as they were, but rather were brokenly overpowered. I personally am not in that camp, but judging from the various threads it's something a lot of people feel strongly about. I'm not all that surprised that they're choosing to *not* ignore this one.

    (I'm admittedly a bit happy to have some idea of what's actually being planned on this issue. I can start making plans for the future this way.)

    Also, you can't really call this an across-the-board nerf. There are cases where the current working model is an improvement over existing SBEs - and it's far from finalized. It's already significantly moderated from the original. I'm really not feeling like your interpretation of Synapse's actions matches the actual course of events. (Especially since it's been, what, two days since the original post? This is seriously early days for any sort of major game change.)

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Zombie Man View Post
    So nice of you to say since you're so indifferently good. [*]I believe that if just one single 'proc' -- whether legacy or PPM -- is being relied upon by an AT to make a *significant* jump in 'power' or to make the AT 'playable'; then it is Overpowered. That may be the case with some of the new PPMs and if a cap is needed, cap 'em. A proc should be as good or slightly better than a Level 50 Damage IO in effect. If it's several orders better... that's not good.[/LIST]
    Are there actually any such examples on the table? Nothing is leaping to my mind. I'm pretty sure the bit with Electric Control I keep bringing up isn't. That involves (at it's height) at least six procs, combined with various other build decisions and tactics to keep the house of cards standing. Don't think it will outdamage a Fire Control character with a much cheaper build, so I'd hardly call it overpowered.

    Quote:
    [*]I also believe too many of the Legacy procs are underpowered and worthless and need a buff.
    I think I might have said something similar in one of these conversations. Some of the procs are just too unreliable to make putting them in a build tempting. That will apply to a lot less things after this. (Although... Seriously, Energy Manipulator, what's with that?)

    -Morgan.
  17. Quote:
    Originally Posted by Greyhame View Post
    Agreed. This won't prevent the screwing up of perfect min/maxed chains, but it will prevent the procs from actually becoming virtually nonfunctional in a League with tons of AoE recharge buffs.
    Since recharge buffs don't affect the proc rates at all in the currently proposed model, that's not really on the table anyway.

    Although I do hope the floor ends up a bit higher than last proposed, or it could end up pretty hard to play my Elec/Rad controller...

    -Morgan.
  18. Okay, did a test run with Synaptic Overload using the Coercive Persuasion SBE. It fired every time on the first target hit, and was about 18% on the jumps.

    Curiously, this was right around the expected rate for a 4.5 ppm proc in an AoE with radius 15 and an 8 second cycle time. Just as the proc rate I saw for Jolting Chain jumps with the Devastation proc was right around expected for a 2.5 ppm proc in an AoE with the same stats.

    Whether this is sensible or not, I don't know. But it seems like currently the CP proc in Synaptic Overload is going to be greatly disadvantaged compared to something like Seeds of Confusion, without any particular reason I can see why it should be so.

    -Morgan.
  19. Quote:
    Originally Posted by Vauluur View Post
    While it's easy enough to find them in the Dev Digest, perhaps you could edit your original post to include a link to the second proposal Synapse? That would help prevent some of the confusion.
    A pointer to something saying what the AoE mod actually *is* would be a good idea too. It seems like a lot of people think this number is much higher than it actually is.

    -Morgan.
  20. Quote:
    Originally Posted by Hyperstrike View Post
    So, with Hasten up what do my chances of proc'ing look like? Floored?
    Something more like not even close, I think. Under the current proposal Hasten and other global recharge bonuses don't affect proc rate. For Spring Attack it's something like this...

    (43.79 + 1.5) * 3 * 1.25 / 60 / (1 + .75 * .15 * 15) = 1.05, or 100%... but then it gets capped at 90%. Long recharge is still long.

    Oh, and that's actually wrong, since I forgot to turn off your hasten. But since the proc rate can't get higher than 100% (or 90%), it doesn't matter.

    Foot Stomp? (9.8 + 2.1) * 3 * 1.25 / 60 / (1 + .75 * .15 * 15) = .27, or 27%. A noticeable improvement over the flat rate proc, but a slight downgrade from the current SBE proc rate of 34%. Not even close to floored.

    -Morgan.
  21. Quote:
    Originally Posted by firespray View Post
    Well, synapse did point out that in many cases this would end up being a buff to the proc rate from what we have now. I'm still just now sure whether the numbers for the % chance to trigger for AoE PPM procs is per target or not. I'm hoping it is, because otherwise the numbers we were shown mean a pretty significant nerf to proc chances in AoE powers when fighting a lot of enemies. And personally I'd rather see a buff than a nerf any day.
    Is there any reason to think it's *not* in most cases? There are a few self-buff procs that are limited to firing once per activation, and in those cases maybe how they act in AoEs could use looking at. But otherwise, the tests I've run using SBE procs in AoEs show they have a chance to fire on every target, and I see no reason to think that's changing.

    Synapse, have you got any idea what this is going to do with chaining powers? Because right now, they're kind of weird. In Jolting Chain the first hit seems to have a proc chance about what it would on a single-target power, and then the jumps have a much lower rate. I've seen something similar on Chain Induction, but haven't tested Synaptic Overload. (Although I think now I'm going to, because if something bizarre is going to happen with the only available version of the only proc it's a good idea to put in it, that's cause for concern.)

    -Morgan.
  22. Quote:
    Originally Posted by firespray View Post
    I'm not sure to be honest. I haven't actually used the PPM procs other than the chance for fury proc in footstomp. I don't know what the PPM on that one is, but it doesn't seem to go off hardly at all. Maybe the numbers I posted above are the total chance to proc, though if they are, I'm not sure how it decides which target to proc against. If that's the case, then if you're hitting more than just a couple targets, those are pretty hefty nerfs.
    One thing to keep in mind with that particular proc is that (as far as I can tell anyway), it can only activate once per activation. So it isn't very good for AoEs. In single-target attacks I've found it fires quite often. (The dom proc was similar, but I heard something about it being changed to be non-pathetic in AoEs. Haven't tested it though.)

    I'm a bit unhappy about what this looks like it'll do to procs in control set's AoE immobilizes. Let's see if I have this right... Take Chain Fences, assume it's enhanced to a 4 second recharge time, and a Positron's Blast proc.

    (4+1.17) * (3 * 1.25) / 60 / (1 + .75 * (.15*30) ) = 0.07

    That's actually low enough to run into the proc floor Synapse suggested, I think. Of course, my Elec/Rad controller doesn't have that much recharge in Chain Fences yet. 6 is probably closer. Still... ow. Remi's nowhere near being the king of damage as it is, so that'd definitely hurt.

    SBE procs currently live aren't worse than the flat version for most AoE damage powers, since the AoE mod isn't near as big a number as some people seem to expect. Looks to me like that'll still be true in a lot of cases here. But that huge radius combined with a short recharge really hurts...

    -Morgan.
  23. Well. You're sacrificing some things I wouldn't for defense... but then, that tends to be a matter of what you want out of a build. Still, I can see a few possibilities for refinement.

    -Knockback protection. You've got two IOs worth. The general consensus seems to be that anything where one IO isn't enough will either take 3, or will take more than you're going to get. Personally I favor BotZ in Shadow Recall. It recharges fast enough. If you decided to go with only one, that'd let you move a +Def unique from Black Dwarf to Absorption and free up a slot. As for Shadow Cloak, you could put the GotA +runspeed or Kismet unique there. Or you could add a third -kb IO. I find just one usually gets the job done though.

    -The Aegis unique you've got in Gravity Shield really doesn't help that much. I'd put the other +Def unique there, and save another slot.

    -Your eclipse is near-perma when Hasten is up. But you're not really all that close to perma on that yet, so... I haven't the faintest idea what your average cycle time would end up beign. I suspect it's more than I'd like if I were you though. A few things I suggest below will relate to that...

    -I'm really surprised you don't have any Obliterations. More global recharge and a nice chunk of melee/smashing/lethal defense, seems like they'd be great for you. Also has more recharge enhancement, which I think is more useful for Sunless Mire than the endurance reduction.

    --I'd go with Obliteration for Black Dwarf Mire too. Unless you're really hot after the bonuses from Devastation, I'd stick the ATOs in Dark Nova Blast.

    ---If you were going to do that, you might also consider putting the Recharge/Form Enhancement in Shadow Bolt instead. The recharge is still good without it, and that saves you another slot. (The six slot bonus isn't that good anyway.)

    -If you're going to have Dark Nova Bolt slotted (and I've seen arguments both for and against), why not a 5-slot Decimation for more recharge? Or you could go Thunderstrike for some e/n defense, it's pretty common in late-game.

    -Personally I'd rather have the performance shifter proc in Black Dwarf than Dark Nova. Dwarf seems to have more end problems in my experience.

    -You're always going to get looks askance having the Numina proc in a click, but with the way Stygian Circle gets used, you'll probably have it most of the time. You'd probably still be better off moving the second slot to Health and putting it there.

    --As for the other slot in SC? EndMod's better, really. It's already a near-full heal even with only one target. Adding EndMod gives you more staying power in not-enough-bodies environments.

    -Unless you really like the heal of Essence Drain, why not Gravity Well instead? Does a lot more damage, and even a single-target hold has many uses. And did I mention that it does a ton of damage?

    -Black Dwarf Drain has pretty good damage too - less than smite, but more than strike. Why not give it some damage? I'd move the slots from Brawl there, and use the four KCs + a suitable pair of enhancements from TotN. (I like Heal + Accuracy/Heal, myself.)

    -Oh yeah, about those Kinetic Combat's. The knockdown bonus may be an economical choice, but it leaves the enhancement numbers a bit anemic. There may also be an undesirable interaction there. If things work the way I've been lead to belive, 6% of the time the knockdown in the attack and the proc will fire at the same time, the game will add together the mags, and you'll get knockback. I once had some unfortuante set bonuses that lead to my dwarf attacks doing knockback, and take it from me, it's annoying.

    -Six-slotting the purple set in Gravitic Emanation doesn't add much duration over various 5-slot combinations, and the effect will be even more diminished if you go for the Spiritual Alpha. I'd drop either Stun or End/Stun.

    ... I think that's all I've got right now.

    -Morgan.
  24. Quote:
    Originally Posted by Tater Todd View Post
    Yeah the only proc that really shines in Jolting chain is the Devastation Proc.
    Damage procs are fun in it too.

    That's more a thing I'm inclined to go for on controller than dom though.

    -Morgan.
  25. Morganite

    Bow Assault

    Bows really don't make much sense as a melee weapon. I am perhaps absurdly fond of the fact that Archery replaces brawl with a kick, but I'm not sure just kicks is enough for the melee component of a dom assault set.

    My suggestion for a weapon-based set would be sword and pistol. It's at least theoretically possible, and has some nice imagery associated with it.

    Or, you know, just forget the pistol part and go with swords entirely. I can far more easily accept throwing swords as an attack than routinely hitting people with a bow. (And a melee attack with an arrow is even worse.)

    -Morgan.