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I'd say, lose the 30' radius and team size altogether and just give Stalkers a base 30% chance to crit. Boom. Little muss, little fuss, cottage rule is happy, and they're now all-around slightly better damage-wise than scrappers - if the RNG is happy with you.
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Originally Posted by Diesel Punk
Heroes tend to be consistent damage, Villains Variable. Brutes have lower lows and higher highs, let Stalkers have the same.
Give them extra crit chances, better potential for higher damage, but nothing that players can control. |
Blood Widow Ricki * Tide Shifter * T-34 * Opposite Reaction * Shaolin Midnight * ChernobylCheerleader
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That's pretty funny considering all of the arguments in favor of nerfing Brutes listed more HP as the primary reason.|
Originally Posted by EvilGeko
I believe that Stalkers and Scrappers should be equivalent in damage potential. Not one better than the other. People harp on the survivability difference, but I don't see it. Stalkers don't draw aggro to themselves and have a number of escape valves (Hide, Placate) to get themselves out of trouble. The only difference in defensive performance with Scrappers is that Scrappers have more HP. That doesn't justify significantly higher damage IMO.
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You can choose any equivalent Brute/Scrapper powerset combo and the Brute will always out aggro the Scrapper, thus taking more incoming attacks and more damage and reducing the danger to the Scrapper.
If Brutes needed a reduction to be in line due to their much vaunted "higher survivability", then Stalkers either need to outdamage Scrappers or something needs to be done about Scrappers.
Otherwise Stalkers will always be the least valuable of all of the available melee ATs.
FWIW, I think Stalkers should outdamage Scrappers in ST capabilties - by at least 15 to 20%.
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I think for the sets that have no AoE or limited AoE need to do more ST damage than Scrapper. Take Claw for example, Stalker's version Eviscerate has already been changed to ST attack for "more damage" but even the ST version does less damage than Scrapper's Eviscerate, which is a cone. This is just sad. They took out Spin too. And the only thing that was added is Build Up. Claw Build Up does have less recharge but it's from Claw's inherent effect (less recharge, less endurance cost). I don't think Stalker Claw set is modified to compensate the fact that Scrapper Claw can stack Follow Up. |
Originally Posted by EvilGeko
I believe that Stalkers and Scrappers should be equivalent in damage potential. Not one better than the other. People harp on the survivability difference, but I don't see it. Stalkers don't draw aggro to themselves and have a number of escape valves (Hide, Placate) to get themselves out of trouble. The only difference in defensive performance with Scrappers is that Scrappers have more HP. That doesn't justify significantly higher damage IMO.
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I never want a defensive improvement on Stalker. I just want Stalker to do more damage especially during soloing. It is sad that the supposed ST-specialist actually has the worst performance when it comes to soloing pylon and AVs. Stalker's survival VS damage ratio is just too imbalanced.
What's left is to normalize all Assassin Strikes and improve Stalker's old sets (Claw, MA and EM)! You don't need to bring back the missing PbAoE attack. You just need to make the existing ones better! For example, make Slice a WIDER and LONGER cone.
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The way I see it is this, if Stalker is not getting aggro on the team, then somebody else is getting aggro. If you are not getting aggro FOR THE TEAM, then you BETTER KILL FASTER. |
Originally Posted by Deus_Otiosus
That's pretty funny considering all of the arguments in favor of nerfing Brutes listed more HP as the primary reason.
You can choose any equivalent Brute/Scrapper powerset combo and the Brute will always out aggro the Scrapper, thus taking more incoming attacks and more damage and reducing the danger to the Scrapper. If Brutes needed a reduction to be in line due to their much vaunted "higher survivability", then Stalkers either need to outdamage Scrappers or something needs to be done about Scrappers. Otherwise Stalkers will always be the least valuable of all of the available melee ATs. FWIW, I think Stalkers should outdamage Scrappers in ST capabilties - by at least 15 to 20%. |
And sadly, Stalker doesn't kill faster than Brute/Scrapper/Blaster/SoA/Dominator and some odd combos from Corr/Controller.
What's left is to normalize all Assassin Strikes and improve Stalker's old sets (Claw, MA and EM)! You don't need to bring back the missing PbAoE attack. You just need to make the existing ones better! For example, make Slice a WIDER and LONGER cone.
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Add Super Speed or Stealth to your scrapper, and the only part of that plan above that a scrapper can't do is placate.... and a mitigating attack (knockdown/stun/epic hold/etc) will do just as well. I understand your point here, and agree that a flat damage boost is not a solution, but you seem to be making the argument that stalkers are 'not wrong, just different'. That I disagree with - there definitely are problems with the AT.|
Originally Posted by Leo_G
On my Kat/SR who is soft capped with procced out attacks and DA for tanking, can run lots of enemy groups no problem. Then he runs into Devouring Earth with the Guardians and their "you have no defense" power. I have to save BU for them, turn on my stealth sprint and pray I hit them before they summon anything. And if there are 2 guardians in a spawn? Scramble!
For a stalker I can outright kill them and if there are 2, placate and turn the corner so his buddies aren't getting buffs. Things are *easy* when you can plan a whole encounter out and execute it perfectly. |
The main problem is that there is virtually nothing a stalker can do that a scrapper can't do better. Stalker core mechanics (hide/placate/as) as they currently stand just aren't very relevant in today's game. Those mechanics need a review and revamp.
**Please note the above comments are in relation to PvE only.
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I don't understand this argument. Stalker, Brute and Scrapper defenses are the same numbers. There's the HP differences, the tiny def boost of Hide (mostly suppressed), and a few differences in what IO bonuses you can get based on power differences (which an experienced player can work around - Mid's exists for a reason).|
Originally Posted by obscureent
And to Shadowy Dream, I think that if you DO try to replicate the build as a scrapper or even a brute, you'll find your defenses will fall radically short of the ones posted above. I know this because I tried it myself. While the damage will be higher, the recharge will be slower. And if you can't survive the mobs, whats the point of all your damage?
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You think noone can make an equivalent scrapper as good as your stalker? Post the build instead of unsupported screenie snippets.
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It's like you only read half of what I said lol|
Originally Posted by Greyhame
Add Super Speed or Stealth to your scrapper, and the only part of that plan above that a scrapper can't do is placate.... and a mitigating attack (knockdown/stun/epic hold/etc) will do just as well.
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So tell me how a Kinetic Scrap or a Claws scrap or a Dual Blades scrap or a dark melee scrap would pull off outright killing that guardian before it drops a quartz, hmm?
But besides general AT make-up, my Kat scrap can only *try* to eleminate that specific mob before it can react. If you miss? If you're spotted? If the *other* mobs summon a carian or +mez mushroom?
I think I made my point with that specific senario, you just seem to think just because scraps have higher melee mods, that completely trumps all and it doesn't always. Sure, you can make a build that will plow through whatever gets in your way with about any AT, but that isn't a failing of Stalkers but a general flaw of the game and the min/max mindset in general.
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| I understand your point here, and agree that a flat damage boost is not a solution, but you seem to be making the argument that stalkers are 'not wrong, just different'. That I disagree with - there definitely are problems with the AT. |
I don't mind that stalkers do less base damage than a scrapper. It matches my thematic picture of stalkers. However, I do think that they could be improved. Keeping with my picture of stalkers, I would increase critical damage to 300% regular damage, perhaps adjusting critical rate slightly to adjust for higher critical damage not being overpowered. This would also translate to AS, (which I make non-interruptable, a 2.5 sec cast, whose damage is distributed so that it has slightly lower damage than expected, and enough critical damage to match or exceed current AS). This would make it deal more damage than a scrapper, but unpredictably. Suddenly you'll one-shot a lt or boss, then go back to low base damage, then jump for a one-shot kill, etc. It would, however, make a stalker an elite damage dealer against big targets like AVs and GMs.
TW/Elec Optimization
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Or just set Stalker HP values to that of Scrappers. Funny how everyone always ignores that option. Probably because they know that, Stalkers would then have more survivability than Scrappers. If you read my post, I don't think Stalkers are less survivable than Scrappers. Brutes draw aggro and you speak of that like it's a detriment. A taunt aura and taunts on your attacks counteracts morale loss and scatter keeping mobs in damage auras and in PBAoE range. And no one wanted to nerf Brutes. Brutes had MORE damage than Scrappers and MORE survivability. Stalkers do not have less damage than Scrappers except in AoE. But then Stalkers get a number of tools (high value stealth, placate, AS fear) that Scrappers don't.|
Originally Posted by Deus_Otiosus
That's pretty funny considering all of the arguments in favor of nerfing Brutes listed more HP as the primary reason.
You can choose any equivalent Brute/Scrapper powerset combo and the Brute will always out aggro the Scrapper, thus taking more incoming attacks and more damage and reducing the danger to the Scrapper. If Brutes needed a reduction to be in line due to their much vaunted "higher survivability", then Stalkers either need to outdamage Scrappers or something needs to be done about Scrappers. Otherwise Stalkers will always be the least valuable of all of the available melee ATs. FWIW, I think Stalkers should outdamage Scrappers in ST capabilties - by at least 15 to 20%. |
The only problem with Stalkers is the lack of AoE. While I would like changes to AS, there is no other significant weakness that Stalkers have compared to Scrappers.
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
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And single target, unless you're talking about short time window burst.|
Originally Posted by EvilGeko
Stalkers do not have less damage than Scrappers except in AoE.
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They're a lot closer there than with the AoE numbers for most sets, though.
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Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle
it has gone from unconscionable to downright appalling that we have no way of measuring our characters' wetness.
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Originally Posted by Brillig
It's hard to beat the entertainment value of Whackjob Wednesdays.
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Single target is in line with Scrappers as well if not better. No one bothers to try and quantify the effect of Assassination on overall DPS, but in my experience it's significant.|
Originally Posted by Siolfir
And single target, unless you're talking about short time window burst.
They're a lot closer there than with the AoE numbers for most sets, though. |
Scrappers with crits are usually considered to do an average of 1.2 melee damage. 1.125 + 0.075 for crits.
Stalkers have a set 10% chance to crit at all times. Bringing their average to 1.1 before Assassination. 1 + .1 for crits. Hide and Placate allow a number of attacks to automatically hit for critical damage. You also have AS which does well in excess of a normal critical coming out of Hide. Also, being on a team give Stalkers a scaling buff to their criticals. If you can't leverage all those tools to cover a .1 gap in damage, then it's not the AT that's the problem.
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
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We will differ in opinion there then. AS is a good opener, but on full teams that's often times all it is. Stalkers may start out faster due to the higher burst from AS, but after that it's all scrapping.|
Originally Posted by EvilGeko
No one bothers to try and quantify the effect of Assassination on overall DPS, but in my experience it's significant.
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A number of Stalker sets have no attack other than AS that can be used after Placate that doesn't lower overall DPS (over not using Placate). For those sets that do have a good attack to use following Placate the difference in overall DPS doesn't tend to be large. Placate is a good aggro management tool, and for controlled criticals, but it's not that significant a contributor to DPS.
As far as the scaling criticals, it takes four team members within 30 feet to exceed Scrapper damage on average. Not everyone agrees on just how common a scenario that is, but I would say that Stalkers will not out-damage Scrappers on average due to the scaling criticals alone.
Damage comparisons are usually done at base and at the cap, but Scrappers will often pull ahead in the middle ground due to differences in powersets. Follow Up, Blinding Feint, Soul Drain, AAO, Fiery Embrace, and of course damage auras all give Scrappers an edge in damage.
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I agree with most of this, especially in the last paragraph - those longer-duration +damage buffs really make a difference in damage over time and that's where most of my issues occur regarding single-target damage. |
Originally Posted by Supernumiphone
We will differ in opinion there then. AS is a good opener, but on full teams that's often times all it is. Stalkers may start out faster due to the higher burst from AS, but after that it's all scrapping.
A number of Stalker sets have no attack other than AS that can be used after Placate that doesn't lower overall DPS (over not using Placate). For those sets that do have a good attack to use following Placate the difference in overall DPS doesn't tend to be large. Placate is a good aggro management tool, and for controlled criticals, but it's not that significant a contributor to DPS. As far as the scaling criticals, it takes four team members within 30 feet to exceed Scrapper damage on average. Not everyone agrees on just how common a scenario that is, but I would say that Stalkers will not out-damage Scrappers on average due to the scaling criticals alone. Damage comparisons are usually done at base and at the cap, but Scrappers will often pull ahead in the middle ground due to differences in powersets. Follow Up, Blinding Feint, Soul Drain, AAO, Fiery Embrace, and of course damage auras all give Scrappers an edge in damage. |
Yes, Assassination helps you from hidden status - which on single targets should be AS, since it's the highest DPA available with the guaranteed critical - but after that it varies by set and situation: the Assassin's Strike powers are interruptible and often the only attack that increases enough in DPA to make the animation for Placate not a net loss in damage. But it can make the damage comparable for most single-target fights, if you assume that you'll always have the time to rehide between spawns.
But even then, you're quibbling about possibly doing roughly similar single-target damage over time as an AT that has more base hit points and a higher cap - let alone the comparison with Brutes, who also tend to do more damage over time than Stalkers.
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Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle
it has gone from unconscionable to downright appalling that we have no way of measuring our characters' wetness.
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Originally Posted by Brillig
It's hard to beat the entertainment value of Whackjob Wednesdays.
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Note I said Assassination, which is the Stalker inherent. Not Assassin's Strike which is a power in the Stalker sets. I don't even take Assassin's Strike on my Stalkers. I use their big hitter after placate in a normal chain. Being able to create a controlled crit like that is fantastic. On teams, I stay close to at least some teammates to take advantage of the scaling buff.
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Originally Posted by Supernumiphone
We will differ in opinion there then. AS is a good opener, but on full teams that's often times all it is. Stalkers may start out faster due to the higher burst from AS, but after that it's all scrapping.
A number of Stalker sets have no attack other than AS that can be used after Placate that doesn't lower overall DPS (over not using Placate). For those sets that do have a good attack to use following Placate the difference in overall DPS doesn't tend to be large. Placate is a good aggro management tool, and for controlled criticals, but it's not that significant a contributor to DPS. As far as the scaling criticals, it takes four team members within 30 feet to exceed Scrapper damage on average. Not everyone agrees on just how common a scenario that is, but I would say that Stalkers will not out-damage Scrappers on average due to the scaling criticals alone. Damage comparisons are usually done at base and at the cap, but Scrappers will often pull ahead in the middle ground due to differences in powersets. Follow Up, Blinding Feint, Soul Drain, AAO, Fiery Embrace, and of course damage auras all give Scrappers an edge in damage. |
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
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The question I have with this is: Do you believe that the utility value of Hide and Placate are worth nothing in balance comparisons? Personally, as I said above, if the HP are the issue, then fix it. Stalkers' cap should be increased at a minimum because there are several sets that can't even get the full benefit of accolades, IOs and their own buffs. The base difference is 129 HP. I say give that to Stalkers as well and let's take that off the table.|
Originally Posted by Siolfir
But even then, you're quibbling about possibly doing roughly similar single-target damage over time as an AT that has more base hit points and a higher cap - let alone the comparison with Brutes, who also tend to do more damage over time than Stalkers.
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Then we can have a productive discussion about the roles of Stalkers and Scrappers vis a vis Brutes and Tankers. Brutes and Tankers have aggro generation (i.e. Tanking) as a stated role. Scrappers and Stalkers are supposed to be melee DPS and they have no other role that every combo in the AT can play.
If I had my way, I would significantly increase the debuffing potential of both Stalkers and Scrappers. Instead of increasing base damage of Stalkers, which in my opinion would be silly and ultimately counter-productive, I would give Stalkers strong ST debuffs that rival Defender class debuffs. For Scrappers I would have weaker ST debuffs, but attach a strong AoE debuff to their AoE attacks.
Let's use Broadsword for an example. Both sets debuff now, but -Defense isn't the greatest PvE debuff. But OK, let's go with it. I would increase it for every power in both ATs. But for Stalkers I would make Headsplitter a much more powerful -defense and I would add a strong -regen to it. For Scrappers I would attack something else like -damage to the AoE. Then Stalkers/Scrappers would have a better secondary role and really with sets like Time, Rad, Dark and Kinetics, the buff/debuff ATs could stand to have some competition.
What I take issue with is everyone wants to increase damage. I just think that's silly. Not because I like Scrappers more, but because the arms race in this game has already gotten out of hand. Another thing that gets lost in these discussions is that Stalker have significantly more defense than Blasters. Thus if they EVER start doing more damage than Blasters, the Blasters would have a fair beef. Then what do we do? Buff Blaster damage? The devs did that already (twice), but do it again? OK, but then Stalkers and Scrappers, who only have damage as a role, get devalued in teams next to our new supercharged Blasters whose defense can be buffed in teams.
If people perceive a defensive disparity, then fix that.
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
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Wow, someone else that finally gets it. I've been saying the same thing (or at leadt something similar) for a while now. People go on about Stalkers needing to out do Scraps in melee but in the whole scheme of balance, Scrappers are a DPS class too and you can't have one completely overshadowing another or else purpose is lost to invite one. The ATs should be *close* which is how they are.|
Originally Posted by EvilGeko
The question I have with this is: Do you believe that the utility value of Hide and Placate are worth nothing in balance comparisons? Personally, as I said above, if the HP are the issue, then fix it. Stalkers' cap should be increased at a minimum because there are several sets that can't even get the full benefit of accolades, IOs and their own buffs. The base difference is 129 HP. I say give that to Stalkers as well and let's take that off the table.
Then we can have a productive discussion about the roles of Stalkers and Scrappers vis a vis Brutes and Tankers. Brutes and Tankers have aggro generation (i.e. Tanking) as a stated role. Scrappers and Stalkers are supposed to be melee DPS and they have no other role that every combo in the AT can play. If I had my way, I would significantly increase the debuffing potential of both Stalkers and Scrappers. Instead of increasing base damage of Stalkers, which in my opinion would be silly and ultimately counter-productive, I would give Stalkers strong ST debuffs that rival Defender class debuffs. For Scrappers I would have weaker ST debuffs, but attach a strong AoE debuff to their AoE attacks. Let's use Broadsword for an example. Both sets debuff now, but -Defense isn't the greatest PvE debuff. But OK, let's go with it. I would increase it for every power in both ATs. But for Stalkers I would make Headsplitter a much more powerful -defense and I would add a strong -regen to it. For Scrappers I would attack something else like -damage to the AoE. Then Stalkers/Scrappers would have a better secondary role and really with sets like Time, Rad, Dark and Kinetics, the buff/debuff ATs could stand to have some competition. What I take issue with is everyone wants to increase damage. I just think that's silly. Not because I like Scrappers more, but because the arms race in this game has already gotten out of hand. Another thing that gets lost in these discussions is that Stalker have significantly more defense than Blasters. Thus if they EVER start doing more damage than Blasters, the Blasters would have a fair beef. Then what do we do? Buff Blaster damage? The devs did that already (twice), but do it again? OK, but then Stalkers and Scrappers, who only have damage as a role, get devalued in teams next to our new supercharged Blasters whose defense can be buffed in teams. If people perceive a defensive disparity, then fix that. |
Heck, even the purposed AoE descrepency won't be anything to complain about once more proliferation occurrs. Once Stalkers can 50% crit Fire Sword Circle, throw on a Fiery embrace, swing around all those cones in Titan Weapons, tossing around mace/axe PBAoEs and eventually Shield Charge, maybe rounding out AoE-weak sets with Patron/epic AoEs + Spring attack...all with the ability to pop reds and hit BU just before that burst then easily do it again after a placate. I honestly don't see the beef with Stalkers and AoEs...some sets are just good at it and we'll be getting more sets in the future with decent to great AoE...
/rant off...I would probably reverse that idea, EG. Make Scrappers into the ST debuffers (as it doesn't even make much sense to me that Scraps would be debuffers at all) while making Stalkers the AoE debuffers. Consider, some of the Scrapper sets don't have big AoEs to attach debuffs to. But Stalkers have a wide-spread AoE debuff already. Just make some sort of qualifiers in combat to trigger different debuffs, like hitting a minion will get current demoralize, a Lt. demoralize+set-secondary debuff, a boss demoralize+secondary debuff and -res and on GMs/EBs/AVs a simple single target -regen/-heal.
That is to say, you don't have to bother with AS and just focus on DPS, but if you choose to take that dmg hit, you could better support a team.
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It's not really apparent now, but when the game launched the tanker attack sets were much more control focused while the Scrapper sets were much more debuff focused. At the time, -defense actually was worth something, especially in the lower levels and so Katana and Broadsword had a nice debuff. Dark Melee and Spines were and are good debuffers. Claws had a decent -def, but it was the worst at it. Martial Arts sucked, but then what else was new. |
Originally Posted by Leo_G
/rant off...I would probably reverse that idea, EG. Make Scrappers into the ST debuffers (as it doesn't even make much sense to me that Scraps would be debuffers at all) while making Stalkers the AoE debuffers. Consider, some of the Scrapper sets don't have big AoEs to attach debuffs to. But Stalkers have a wide-spread AoE debuff already. Just make some sort of qualifiers in combat to trigger different debuffs, like hitting a minion will get current demoralize, a Lt. demoralize+set-secondary debuff, a boss demoralize+secondary debuff and -res and on GMs/EBs/AVs a simple single target -regen/-heal.
That is to say, you don't have to bother with AS and just focus on DPS, but if you choose to take that dmg hit, you could better support a team. |
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
I have not been asking for more damage for Stalkers. When I bring up damage and survivability discrepancies it is to point out the reasons that I think Stalkers could use some kind of compensation for those shortfalls. Not necessarily that I want them addressed directly, though for the hitpoint difference to some degree I would. I wouldn't ask for Stalker hitpoints to be brought up to Scrapper levels, but I do want to see the cap for Stalkers brought up to a point where they can get some actual, meaningful benefit from +HP powers in the secondaries.
I think it was a mistake to allow melees with personal defenses and mez protection to even get anywhere close to Blaster level damage. That ship has sailed though. Still there's no reason to try to make the situation any worse, and I think the comment from Castle on the subject showed that the devs agreed, at least at the time the statement was made. Personally I doubt requests for more damage will go anywhere, and I think Stalker advocates would better spend their time exploring other avenues.
As time has gone on I've become more and more a fan of the idea of allowing Stalkers to be single-target melee debuffers. I think it really fits well with the theme of the stealthy assassin. I have my doubts that any melee will ever get a significant AoE debuffing role, but I've been surprised before. Anyway I think it would be a worthwhile tradeoff for the general lack of AoE, lower hitpoints, and IMO typically lower single-target damage.
That would be my preference. That's why I don't even want Stalkers base hitpoints brought up to Scrapper levels. I'd like there to be a greater separation between the ATs, and that would be greater justification for giving them a more divergent, specialized role.
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A Scrapper doesn't even have to do that much. Just Confront the Guardians and kill them at leisure. It's the best, and maybe only, reason to take Confront on a Scrapper.|
Originally Posted by Greyhame
Add Super Speed or Stealth to your scrapper, and the only part of that plan above that a scrapper can't do is placate....
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Originally Posted by EvilGeko
Or just set Stalker HP values to that of Scrappers. Funny how everyone always ignores that option. .
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Neither are the problem. But adding more damage is absolutely not what Stalkers need.
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Originally Posted by Daemodand
I wouldn't call making Stalkers into Scrapper clones a solution. Stalkers need to be their own Archetype. Hit Points aren't what's wrong with Stalkers. It's the lack of damage that is the problem.
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The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
A melee debuffing class would be pretty cool, but I don't think it would be fair to go to defender levels and still deal the damage that stalkers currently deal. Even corrupter is likely too much. But close to corrupter is possible.
This would also be very interesting in that taking something other than reactive for interface might become tempting to stack on.
I'd have to see how it played out, but that would definitely give stalkers a unique place. Plus keep the solo play all about having a big bag of tricks, which is really what I love about the AT right now.
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In my many many experiences, Assassin Strike is hit-miss and its purpose is a lot worse in late-games. |
Originally Posted by EvilGeko
Single target is in line with Scrappers as well if not better. No one bothers to try and quantify the effect of Assassination on overall DPS, but in my experience it's significant.
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To quantify the effect of Assassin Strike, we also need to see what Stalker loses in order to get it. In many old sets, they lose one precious pbaoe and in two sets, they have ZERO aoe. That's just too much loss in exchange for a SLOW ST attack that requires setup time and has interruption.
Stalker's ST damage is only impressive when teammates are around you. Scrapper can already do impressive ST damage on his own.
I do agree Scrapper's survival is a little bit overrated but in terms of teaming, if you are not holding aggro, then you better offer superior dps for the team. Stalker is stuck in a situation where he is terrible at being the main tank (yes yes yes, I know Stalker can be meatshield with outside buffs but that's not the point) and not being able to do damage quicker than other ATs like Blaster, Scrapper, dominator and SoA.
Stalker is very playable and that's it. And the newer sets are better for teaming.
What's left is to normalize all Assassin Strikes and improve Stalker's old sets (Claw, MA and EM)! You don't need to bring back the missing PbAoE attack. You just need to make the existing ones better! For example, make Slice a WIDER and LONGER cone.
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Originally Posted by EvilGeko
Then we can have a productive discussion about the roles of Stalkers and Scrappers vis a vis Brutes and Tankers. Brutes and Tankers have aggro generation (i.e. Tanking) as a stated role. Scrappers and Stalkers are supposed to be melee DPS and they have no other role that every combo in the AT can play. If I had my way, I would significantly increase the debuffing potential of both Stalkers and Scrappers. Instead of increasing base damage of Stalkers, which in my opinion would be silly and ultimately counter-productive, I would give Stalkers strong ST debuffs that rival Defender class debuffs. For Scrappers I would have weaker ST debuffs, but attach a strong AoE debuff to their AoE attacks. |
I am all for making each AT more unique but knowing that Stalker's Street Justice doesn't have Rib Cracker (which offers debuff on resistance and damage!), I think the idea of making Stalker debuff stronger is just not going to happen.
We've had many many many discussions on how to improve Stalkers in this forum and the only thing the dev wants to do (or have the time to do) is to increase Stalker's damage potential because at the end of the day, Stalker's role is to kill, not to debuff. Debuff/Control are just secondary.
The fear effect from Assassin Strike is a lot better in beta because you can still fear if the target is dead in one hit. This means if you know you are not going to kill a boss in time and you want to offer Fear for the team, you can start the fight by killing a Minion first. It's at least an option if you want "control" oriented stalker.
I know Castle was pretty much done with Stalker AT. Maybe we can talk to Synapse and see what he thinks of it. With Freedom coming out, I really doubt they have time to balance the "old" stuff.
PS: I've have sent at least 4 Bug Reports on 3 Epic sets not doing Critical damage. The amount of attention Stalker gets is pretty pathetic. Didn't they fix Containment problem for patron sets so fast? Funny how other ATs get fixed so soon while Stalker's Epic problem is over looked again, again and again. It's either Epic not being able to critical at all or all of them critical. It makes no sense that only Heat mastery can critical.
What's left is to normalize all Assassin Strikes and improve Stalker's old sets (Claw, MA and EM)! You don't need to bring back the missing PbAoE attack. You just need to make the existing ones better! For example, make Slice a WIDER and LONGER cone.
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Its also funny how you mention that Stalkers are not less survivable (due to their tools to avoid aggro I assume) and then simultaneously ignore how the same applies to the Brute/Scrapper dichotomy with or without Taunt effects.|
Originally Posted by EvilGeko
Or just set Stalker HP values to that of Scrappers. Funny how everyone always ignores that option. Probably because they know that, Stalkers would then have more survivability than Scrappers. If you read my post, I don't think Stalkers are less survivable than Scrappers. Brutes draw aggro and you speak of that like it's a detriment. A taunt aura and taunts on your attacks counteracts morale loss and scatter keeping mobs in damage auras and in PBAoE range.
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The value of a taunt or taunt aura is not binary, "its good" or "its not good".
The value of keeping enemies glued to you is good, the fact that you are also now taking a larger risk as you take more incoming attacks on a team is also true and is not deniable and is therefore a potential negative.
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Originally Posted by EvilGeko
And no one wanted to nerf Brutes.
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We haven't seen this come to pass however.
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Originally Posted by EvilGeko
Brutes had MORE damage than Scrappers and MORE survivability.
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Under what circumstances?
How much Fury?
What critical hit percentage?
IOs or SOs?
If IOs, how much +damage slotting from IOs?
Gloom or no Gloom?
Using Assault?
Using BU?
Using Musculature (which the devs knew would be an option)?
Using persistent damage buffs from primary or secondary?
At the mythical perma-damage cap scenario that not even 24 man leagues has brought about?
I look at the Rikti pylon thread and even pre-incarnates I see Scrappers well at the top.
Many of the best scores come from sets that are simply not as effective on Brutes, Dual Blades, Kinetic Melee, Dark Melee, and anything with Shield Defense to name a few.
There is only one combination for Brutes that tops the charts, and that combination will be potentially be more powerful when it gets ported to Scrappers.
It might be the case that Brutes can achieve parity on sets that both have top end potential as well as not relying on persistent damage bonuses to achieve it (i.e. no Power Siphon or no perma-soul drain), so Katana for example.
Perhaps Brutes even achieve damage parity on just SOs and no incarnate boosts, I don't know personally if this is true or not.
Otherwise my own attempts to see how close a Brute can get by copying a Scrapper build have fallen far short of what the Scrapper versions are capable of. Power combos like DB/Ela (33% in favor of scrapper) DM/SD (about 20% in favor of the Scrapper) for example. This is with equivalent builds, equivalent slotting, all the trimmings.
The Brutes advantage is 12% HP all of the time, and a situational/powerset dependent resistance advantage. Its a practically non-existent advantage for Defense sets.
And its an advantage for other sets in a way that makes the overall advantage minimal (for example, having 90% resistance to Fire damage when Fire damage is rarely encountered).
Invuln, WP and Ela do make out well overall, and are, IMO, in the sweetspot for Brute mitigation performance.
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Originally Posted by EvilGeko
Stalkers do not have less damage than Scrappers except in AoE. But then Stalkers get a number of tools (high value stealth, placate, AS fear) that Scrappers don't.
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Build it, test it, prove it.
Big claims are fun to make, please show us your no temp/no insp Stalker results on a pylon. This should be no problem, since you assert they do not have less survivability than a Scrapper.
You can even do it for free on the beta server.
Getting a number of tools that are of generally lower value in the typical game play scenario does not suddenly give them parity.
I believe that Stalkers and Scrappers should be equivalent in damage potential. Not one better than the other. People harp on the survivability difference, but I don't see it. Stalkers don't draw aggro to themselves and have a number of escape valves (Hide, Placate) to get themselves out of trouble. The only difference in defensive performance with Scrappers is that Scrappers have more HP. That doesn't justify significantly higher damage IMO.
Heroes tend to be consistent damage, Villains Variable. Brutes have lower lows and higher highs, let Stalkers have the same.
Give them extra crit chances, better potential for higher damage, but nothing that players can control.