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The problem with using a simple average here is that imagine what these spawns look like. For any group of 'n' enemies in an 8ft sphere they have to be spread out almost perfectly at maximum range for me NOT to easily hit more than half of them. e.g. For 5 enemies, you have to imagine they are standing at the points of an equilateral pentagon exactly 8 ft from you for me not to be able to sweep 3. How likely is that? And if I can get 3 while you get 5... you lose. It only gets easier for me to hit 3, 4, or 5 targets the more of them you pack into your 8ft sphere. 2.5 average? Hardly. Not in the SAME scenario where you are averaging 5.|
Originally Posted by Diesel Punk
Average targets: Flashing caps at 5, deals its damage to 2.5 targets every 4.21 seconds:
124 x 2.5/4.21 = 73.634 average AoE DPS 170 x 5/9.83 = 86.469 So on Average, Lotus drops will outdamage Flashing Steel. |
The reality too is that you're not really going to be using Lotus every 10 seconds. There are going to be a lot more cases in a typical mission or task force where a loose couple or trio of enemies are standing together and I can sweep them with Flashing Steel. All I need is two. You can't use Lotus against two targets and keep up with me on damage. You NEED to always be hitting almost twice as many targets with Lotus as I can hit with Flashing Steel to stay ahead. Because Flashing Steel is more generally useful, it will get used a lot more often that two times per every use of Lotus. It will account for more total damage, so again no... don't want to trade.
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You do realize that I agree on that point, right? Nowhere in here am I saying Stalkers don't still need a buff. I am saying I don't think they need to be made more general. If they are intended to be specialists, then MAKE them special at that.|
Originally Posted by Diesel Punk
Because a Stalker is simply a Specialist that isn't special.
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| Depends on your teammates. Leagues dont apply for the bonus, specifically people on your team. |
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| Hide is. Hide is about hitting and waiting the allotted time to get back into hide and crit again. |
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Another note:|
Originally Posted by Zem
The problem with using a simple average here is that imagine what these spawns look like. For any group of 'n' enemies in an 8ft sphere they have to be spread out almost perfectly at maximum range for me NOT to easily hit more than half of them. e.g. For 5 enemies, you have to imagine they are standing at the points of an equilateral pentagon exactly 8 ft from you for me not to be able to sweep 3. How likely is that? And if I can get 3 while you get 5... you lose. It only gets easier for me to hit 3, 4, or 5 targets the more of them you pack into your 8ft sphere. 2.5 average? Hardly. Not in the SAME scenario where you are averaging 5.
The reality too is that you're not really going to be using Lotus every 10 seconds. There are going to be a lot more cases in a typical mission or task force where a loose couple or trio of enemies are standing together and I can sweep them with Flashing Steel. All I need is two. You can't use Lotus against two targets and keep up with me on damage. You NEED to always be hitting almost twice as many targets with Lotus as I can hit with Flashing Steel to stay ahead. Because Flashing Steel is more generally useful, it will get used a lot more often that two times per every use of Lotus. It will account for more total damage, so again no... don't want to trade. |
Lotus Drop is a targetless AoE. Server will calculate ToHit upon pressing the button. You have to pause and be sure foes are in range of the attack. Enemies might be dead or out of range by then.
Flashing steel is a target cone. Server will calculate if foe is in range then ToHit check after depending on your position at that point. You can stretch *any* cone if you move fast enough (easy with inherant hurdle/sprint) and hit target cap far more often. So while that PBAoE is always 8-10ft radius, you can turn 7ft cone into a ~14-18ft cone.
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Originally Posted by Zem
Zems words here
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A) Flashing vs Lotus: I know, I was just doing the math for myself and for others. However on faster moving teams it'll be easier to Fire Lotus rather than waiting for everything to get into range of Flashing.
This might just be a difference of playstyle, but for any of my Scrappers cones never cut it, the same would apply to Stalkers, for me. Perhaps the Swords sets could stay with their minimal AoE and keep the fact that they can provide 30% mitigation easily with Parry/DA.
B) I'm glad we agree about the specialist deal Zem, I'm not posting just for you, but for anyone else who might think Stalkers are particularly 'good' at being Single target destroyers when they do fail in that role compared to others is all
C) Really? When fighting Marauder we're constantly moving. When Fighting Anti-Matter it's the same deal. The *only* instance on iTrials where a Stalker can really sit in one spot and lay out it's damage is on a BAF trial, and I doubt they'll let many instances of that crop up from here on out. They want to make everything more dynamic.
For basic AVs it's a ton easier to leverage that, but I don't see teams really taking the time to make sure theyre in range of their friendly stalker so he can deal more damage. Same for Phalanx Fighting for a Shielder and whatnot.
D) I know and absolutely agree. However the sets that have hide put into them (EA, Dark) usually lose mitigation (Like unsuppressed defense) on top of the fact that hide is generally a useless power once a fight starts. You can either hit and wait for hide to come back, or generally try to scrap it out and not play like a Stalker at all, losing any advantage hide has given a Stalker to start, and losing further because a Stalker has already given up mitigation in his secondary to get hide. The mitigation lost might be minor, but as is during prolonged fights Hide is generally a useless power.
Other mitigation sets start you off with mitigation, Stalkers are forced into a power that really should be inherent.
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I'm fine disagreeing but I hope this illustrates why the devs are so cagey about actually replacing powers. They don't do it very often and this is why. People disagree.|
Originally Posted by Diesel Punk
A) Flashing vs Lotus: I know, I was just doing the math for myself and for others. However on faster moving teams it'll be easier to Fire Lotus rather than waiting for everything to get into range of Flashing.
This might just be a difference of playstyle, but for any of my Scrappers cones never cut it, the same would apply to Stalkers, for me. Perhaps the Swords sets could stay with their minimal AoE and keep the fact that they can provide 30% mitigation easily with Parry/DA. |
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B) I'm glad we agree about the specialist deal Zem, I'm not posting just for you, but for anyone else who might think Stalkers are particularly 'good' at being Single target destroyers when they do fail in that role compared to others is all
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In fact Stalkers ARE particularly good at being single target destroyers. Not the best. But quite good all the same. They should BE the best. Don't get me wrong. But they don't fail at it. Not by a long shot.Quote:
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C) Really? When fighting Marauder we're constantly moving. When Fighting Anti-Matter it's the same deal. The *only* instance on iTrials where a Stalker can really sit in one spot and lay out it's damage is on a BAF trial, and I doubt they'll let many instances of that crop up from here on out. They want to make everything more dynamic. For basic AVs it's a ton easier to leverage that, but I don't see teams really taking the time to make sure theyre in range of their friendly stalker so he can deal more damage. Same for Phalanx Fighting for a Shielder and whatnot. |
Interesting you bring up Marauder though, considering at least one advantage that a Stalker has in that fight is the ability to re-enter Hide while chasing Maurauder after he leaps away and everyone is scrambling to catch up to him. I can very often get an Assassin Strike on him after each and every leap without breaking stride or waiting for Hide to re-enage. It has done so on the way to him (or close enough that the AS animation takes care of the rest).
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| D) I know and absolutely agree. However the sets that have hide put into them (EA, Dark) usually lose mitigation (Like unsuppressed defense) on top of the fact that hide is generally a useless power once a fight starts. You can either hit and wait for hide to come back, or generally try to scrap it out and not play like a Stalker at all |
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| losing any advantage hide has given a Stalker to start, and losing further because a Stalker has already given up mitigation in his secondary to get hide. |
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| Other mitigation sets start you off with mitigation, Stalkers are forced into a power that really should be inherent. |
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Just reemphasizing this point because it is a huge misconception that 'scrapping' is for scrappers and what brutes/tankers do is somehow different and so what stalkers do must be different too. Scrapping is for 'melee' and that's about it.|
Originally Posted by Zem
Hit and scrap IS "playing like a Stalker". In my book, the way an AT is meant to be played is encoded in its design and the design of the Stalker does NOT reward hit-and-wait. So regardless of anyone's notions of what Stalkers should be... that is what they actually ARE.
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As for hit-and-wait, in one perspective, it *can* be viewed as being rewarded for such actions. However, it's my perspective that Stalkers are simply not *penalized* in situations that pause melee. The other ATs will be penalized in that their DPS will be effected, their buffs are going to waste and they get nothing. Stalkers are given another shot at a crit, the chance to AS and to demoralize and they technically get this for free. And this opportunity is present any time the foes aren't standing around or are out of range, moving to new targets or moving away from special attacks.
Wait...before this thread gets too many people arguing......
I want to complain more about stalkers......
so my next complaint....
(beyond the sneaking up on a box and trying to assassin strike it and it dodges...or trying to hit a target like maelstrom with an assassin strike and failing 6 times in a row...)
what the heck is the deal with the knives of artemis......why are they superior stalkers then a player.....its like they are trying to steal the stalker job and doing a better job at it.
The hide and cloak and never have to get supressed...heck they can stay hidden while running ontop of yuor own caltrops.
And what about their auto-matic see you in hide mode thing.....nope cant assassin strike them most of the time...becasue they see you and caltrop you almost always.
Then there is their resistance to placate..you placate they run like 5 feet then attack again, or better you placate...they stop what they are doing...stare at you giving the look like: "what the heck are you doing?" then they attack you anywise.
Now i admit its annoying when you have spec-ops from longbow that do this too......but the knives of artemis seam to be attempting to take over the the stalker job.....
I say someone needs to write a letter to the paragon congress person and see about some form of regulation or sanctions.
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Theyre NPCs Psycho, they have to be given better powers because their AI is retarded
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That doesn't excuse giving them powers that negate an AT's only selling point.
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Originally Posted by Diesel Punk
Theyre NPCs Psycho, they have to be given better powers because their AI is retarded
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Have to agree on that. It's an excuse in the form of an afterthought in an attempt to apply a sense of challenge.|
Originally Posted by Black Zot
That doesn't excuse giving them powers that negate an AT's only selling point.
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Originally Posted by PsychicKitty
the deal with the knives of artemis......why are they superior stalkers then a player.....its like they are trying to steal the stalker job and doing a better job at it.
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But that makes me confess, I hate it when I do a mission that spawns ambushes of various enemy types who know exactly where you are.
On a different note, Trials have been bugging the PANCAKEPANCAKEPANCAKEPANCAKE out of me lately on one of my 50(+3)s. How is a stalker meant to get VR on rolls or even the chance when their ability to debuff, team buff, and such are limited? I do not like this false sense of effort the Incarnate Trials are trying to put onto the player because it doesn't work. Why not just follow the Empyrean method? 1st run of the trial of the day you get a VR, second you get a Rare, and so on. The game is old enough, trying to apply a sense of effort doesn't work when certain ATs just perform all around better. If buffing/debuffing means say a Mastermind gets alternate routs to boost their "rep" in Incarnate Trials; that's a crutch to a Stalker whose primary capabilities is to deal burst damage. It's a little aggravating - kind of a big deal.
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This I has never been the case for me. Anytime I have died on a stalker I am pretty sure I would have died as a scrapper. Meaning the extra hitpoints would have done nothing for me. Also for the record I was very against stalkers getting the first hitpoint increase because we simply do not need it. 1000 more hit points isnt going to do PANCAKEPANCAKEPANCAKEPANCAKE for me when I am closed in against tons of mobs with no inspirations or heals not on cool down. Stalkers should be squishie it adds to the whole playstyle of them, its just when that squishieness is not compensated with more damage then there is a problem. Hell I could argue that blasters need way more damage. They are the most naked of the ATs and should do at least 3 times the damage they currently do to make up for that. This is the only MMO where the range classes defense as range is a flat out lie. But enough about blasters, stalkers need love at this point and I do not see it happening unless someone is actually able to go to the devs one on one to talk about this. If I lived in the area I would do it.
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Originally Posted by Zem
It's going to help you somewhere, Ryu. The entire game is not composed of enemies that only either do minor damage or else hit for 2500+ a pop. When you're killed, it's not always by 1000 hit points. Any time you receive just enough damage to be killed, a scrapper in your boots would not have died. And that's just a statistical certainty. More hit points is more survival. I really can't believe you're arguing against something that obvious.
And you don't need to argue against it. Stalkers should be less survivable, provided of course they have the damage to compensate for that. |
Bump and Grind Bane/SoA
Kenja No Ishi Earth/Empathy Controller
Legendary Sannin Ninja/Pain Mastermind
Entoxicated Ninja/PSN Mastermind
Ninja Ryukenden Kat/WP Scrapper
Hellish Thoughts Fire/PSI Dominator
Thank You Devs for Merits!!!!
Seriously WTF, what is this pancake crap I been seeing lately? Did I do something wrong to have my post jacked or something? I thought it was some kind of forum joke or something.
Bump and Grind Bane/SoA
Kenja No Ishi Earth/Empathy Controller
Legendary Sannin Ninja/Pain Mastermind
Entoxicated Ninja/PSN Mastermind
Ninja Ryukenden Kat/WP Scrapper
Hellish Thoughts Fire/PSI Dominator
Thank You Devs for Merits!!!!
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Here. It's all Moderator 07's fault.
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Originally Posted by EvilRyu
Seriously WTF, what is this pancake crap I been seeing lately? Did I do something wrong to have my post jacked or something? I thought it was some kind of forum joke or something.
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Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle
it has gone from unconscionable to downright appalling that we have no way of measuring our characters' wetness.
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Originally Posted by Brillig
It's hard to beat the entertainment value of Whackjob Wednesdays.
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I like it. We're not supposed to swear on the forums, filter or no. Making it look flat out ridiculous instead of the easily overlooked asterixes might get people to think before they post. |
Originally Posted by Siolfir
Here. It's all Moderator 07's fault.
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Yeah, like that will ever pancaking happen.
Weight training: Because you'll never hear someone lament "If only I were weaker, I could have saved them."
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hahahaha, you must really love pancakes.
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Originally Posted by EvilRyu
PANCAKEPANCAKEPANCAKEPANCAKE
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I really wouldn't mind at all if Stalkers became the damage kings of the Melee ATs. I tend to stay away from these threads since the last time I posted here I ended up getting stuck in this massive, circular, never ending quote war with someone. Without repeating what's already been said up-thread, if Stalkers are going to be the weakest melee AT defensively then they might as well just amp up their damage. Triple damage crits instead of double, much higher damage on AS. Just a couple of ideas.
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Originally Posted by Necromatic
This is it. +1 bil.
Stalkers need to take out the hard targets. Not tie them up, mez them, or aggro them. Straight take them out. They need to do so in a way that makes them; desirable on a team, scales with team size and level, not over powered. The best way I can think of is MORE damage on the critical side. I know the critical chance is tied to team number, they also need to adjust it so that the multiplier is also. More team members translates to more damage. But not to just any mob type. In fact, in a team setting, I would debuff damage against minions, leave the amount the same on leuts, double against bosses and triple on Ebs and above. simplified formula: current damage(everything they have now) + team crit multiplier + mob type adjustment |
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Stalker tanks?
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Originally Posted by obscureent
They have better Defense/Resistances than most brutes,
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Yes. The elusive Stankler. Lord Recluse can't hit for PANCAKEPANCAKEPANCAKE against one.
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Originally Posted by Pureshadow2
Stalker tanks?
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DPS is a measure of how long it takes you to grind down an AV or pylon or whatever and Stalkers aren't designed for that, so they'll always come up short in DPS measures. They're designed for spike damage, the damage that you can deliver in a single click. In that aspect, they excel. They don't have to carry Fury into every fight or grind away on a target for 5+ minutes to realize their peak performance. They step up next to a target and take it out quickly (and safely).
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The problem I have is this "excel". Honestly, Stalker doesn't excel in burst damage. Stalker is very good at it at early levels, but I can find other set combinations that will do similar damage while having no need to "set up". |
Originally Posted by streetlight
DPS is a measure of how long it takes you to grind down an AV or pylon or whatever and Stalkers aren't designed for that, so they'll always come up short in DPS measures. They're designed for spike damage, the damage that you can deliver in a single click. In that aspect, they excel.
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In a way, I think Stalker is "stuck" in this burst damage design and sacrifices other dps potential for it.
The only way Stalker is superior in burst damage is when Assassin Strike has no interruption and comes out under 3s. Now that's a superior burst damage that can be used in every situation and other ATs can't match for it.
With the current setup time, interruption and build up value, Stalker is only at "very good" tier. Superior? Nah.
PS: However, I want to emphasize that Stalker's current damage is "good enough". Anything higher is just overkilling which is pretty much what I see in SS/Fire Brute and other set combinations. lol I saw a +3 SS/Fire in BAF the other day and his burn basically kills all the minions before they even come out and he can finish the lieut with one hit. Having a build that can solo +4x8 is not a "normal" build. It's a build that is already over the balance point. +4x8 is for a team, not for soloing purpose.
What's left is to normalize all Assassin Strikes and improve Stalker's old sets (Claw, MA and EM)! You don't need to bring back the missing PbAoE attack. You just need to make the existing ones better! For example, make Slice a WIDER and LONGER cone.
Honestly, my Elec/Nin Stalker is my current favorite. However, upon creating a DB/Willpower Stalker and getting it up to SO levels (think I stopped around level 27ish), I wasn't a fan. I can't imagine trying to feel productive on a full team with a MA/ Stalker.
I think that's my problem with Stalkers: there's such a huge disparity between sets in both offensive and defensive potential. Offensively, being a ST-only character in a game where the smallest spawn size you can fight is two, and where in a team setting you're usually facing significantly more than that, you're going to be putting out less damage than a character that has lower base damage, but can do it in AoE formats. I mean, my Elec/ Stalker has Lightning Rod, Thunderstrike, Fireball, and now the Void Judgement (and Chain Induction, if it doesn't kill someone). If I'm playing solo, I tend to use all of those and my single target attacks quite frequently. On a team, I'm just cycling between those five powers, and still slaughtering whole spawns.
If I was MA, I'd have Fireball and Void, and that's it in terms of AoE potential. Fireball recharges fast enough, but it's still a wait until level 47 to get it. Up until that point, I'd have to focus on killing hard, single targets versus slaughtering spawns. And that's the trade-off. I highly doubt that the MA would be able to take down hard, single targets at a rate sufficient to meet the Elec/'s XP potential, by a significant degree.
Defensively, their lower HP and HP cap greatly hinders sets like Regen and Willpower from being great. The base Defense numbers are equal to Scrappers and Brutes (sometimes better for some reason), but the best defensive sets for them seem to be the ones with "tricks" like /EA and /Nin and even /Dark Armor with its auras.
The other sets seem like they lose something key in order to gain Hide. I know that there wasn't the tech to turn off damage auras and such before recently, but Willpower I think would have gained from RttC, and Elec Armor could have been decent with Lightning Field, but without them they're only okay.
Overall, I think that's why there's such a love/hate relationship with Stalkers. Some sets are great, and especially so when paired. Others are absolutely horrible together. No other AT that we have has as much of a performance gap between sets, I feel, at least in terms of how the AT is supposed to function.
Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted.
~Ralph Waldo Emerson
"I was just the one with the most unsolicited sombrero." - Traegus
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Solo this is true. The most efficient way to go through a spawn is to AoE until just the heavy targets are left and then scrap them with ST (assuming you don't need to kill them first for survival reasons). On a team you aren't the only one dealing damage so it's more efficient time-wise to split the task of taking out the larger number of lesser enemies with the task of taking out the bosses and do both at the same time. Inevitably, the person dealing with the bosses will do less total damage, however, so if you can't get past the idea that this person's contribution to the team is just as important as the ones AoEing all the trash and doing more total damage then.... well, you're not going to feel like you're contributing with a ST stalker.
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Originally Posted by Aett_Thorn
If I was MA, I'd have Fireball and Void, and that's it in terms of AoE potential. Fireball recharges fast enough, but it's still a wait until level 47 to get it. Up until that point, I'd have to focus on killing hard, single targets versus slaughtering spawns. And that's the trade-off. I highly doubt that the MA would be able to take down hard, single targets at a rate sufficient to meet the Elec/'s XP potential, by a significant degree.
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Quote:
But that's kinda the problem. My Elec Stalker can choose between focusing on the boss if that's what the team needs, or wiping out the spawn's minions and lieuts. I can do either role, and while I might be better at the AoE than the ST, with AS and my ST attacks, I'm alright at taking out the boss, too. MA doesn't get that versatility. They should take down the boss every time. They have a single role: take down the toughest guy there. When he's dead, find the next toughest guy, etc. I can do the job of the MA guy well enough, but he can't do the AoE thing at all.
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Originally Posted by Zem
Solo this is true. The most efficient way to go through a spawn is to AoE until just the heavy targets are left and then scrap them with ST (assuming you don't need to kill them first for survival reasons). On a team you aren't the only one dealing damage so it's more efficient time-wise to split the task of taking out the larger number of lesser enemies with the task of taking out the bosses and do both at the same time. Inevitably, the person dealing with the bosses will do less total damage, however, so if you can't get past the idea that this person's contribution to the team is just as important as the ones AoEing all the trash and doing more total damage then.... well, you're not going to feel like you're contributing with a ST stalker.
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Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted.
~Ralph Waldo Emerson
"I was just the one with the most unsolicited sombrero." - Traegus
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And Stalker would totally love Shield Charge. :P |
Originally Posted by Aett_Thorn
The other sets seem like they lose something key in order to gain Hide. I know that there wasn't the tech to turn off damage auras and such before recently, but Willpower I think would have gained from RttC, and Elec Armor could have been decent with Lightning Field, but without them they're only okay.
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I still don't buy that Shield set doesn't work well. They only need to change one power and that's it. They did it for Willpower. All the shield-buffs are excellent for Stalker because Stalkers can buff each other before the fight even starts and that Shield Charge will be so good.
The dev just doesn't want Stalker to be overpowering that's all. :P
What's left is to normalize all Assassin Strikes and improve Stalker's old sets (Claw, MA and EM)! You don't need to bring back the missing PbAoE attack. You just need to make the existing ones better! For example, make Slice a WIDER and LONGER cone.
Scrappers deal more damage than a Stalker does in AoE, and in a single target capacity (at least until a Stalker can get 5+ teammates within its Critical boost. However the range on that is pathetically small at 30ft and I've hardly ever seen teams crunching together like that in general play.)
But that unfortunately isn't going to happen. The way stalkers operate restrict them from using these offense boosting sets. A little nudge in their general damage potential doesn't seem like a bad trade for that fact.
Also the Stalker primaries that can AoE are fantastic! Those sets are great, and while I would like every set to be able to do as well in AoE as they originally were, I'm not clamoring for DM to get a free AoE or for AoEs to get buffed on Stalkers. I just wish the capacity would present itself.