People Complaining About Stalkers...

Jeez, you leave town for a few days after starting a thread, and look what happens. 8 pages of the same stuff I didn't read before. Heh.

Well, seeing as how there is indeed 8 pages of stuff to sift through, and this chair I'm in is rather uncomfortable... I'll re-state the question and hope someone will summarize everything for me.

So, as I first said when I posted this thread... What's with all the hate on stalkers? Yes, I understand that not EVERYONE IO's their characters, but... My two IO'd Stalkers both have higher Def/Res than my IO'd brute (which was more expensive), only excuse there is that the brute is shield defense. Their damage is acceptable as the recharge time is very fast on most powers, and even still, it is designed to be a guerrilla type class. Hit-and-run.

So hopefully some one will just throw all their cards on the table and tell me what the major malfunction is.

Thanks.

Short(ish) Answer

When people say they aren't "acceptable" its not unplayable, they are talking in relative terms

If you took one of your IO'd stalkers, and re-rolled him as a scrapper (barring impossibilities like/nin), replacing AS/Placate for the AOE(s) you probably lost from the primary, and then IOd the scrapper out, he would most likely beat your stalker on every measurable metric for damage and survivability, aside from non-sustainable single target burst damage in a 5 second window. The game has evolved to the point where single target burst damage is probably the least important metric because everything either gets AOEd to death or needs sustained single target damage. Even if all damage metrics between the two are close, stalkers will never be able to match the survivability benefits of a scrapper since they have 50% more HP if both are capped.

If you factor in outside buffs/teams, brutes probably win over the stalker by even more due to their ridiculous caps.

note: if the stalker is */*/blaze it may also be able win AOE burst damage due to 100% crit fireball, but thats a pretty limited case and shouldn't be balanced around a level 47+ power that some people have.

To add numbers to the mix, and probably cause some fuss, here are the numbers on my main stalker Nohiro the Red Flash.



These numbers reflect all powers that are on at any given time (Armor toggles, and Divine Avalanche at 1 tick, super speed on) these numbers alone beat my brute, Advent Charge.



The next set of numbers reflect the same thing except with the addition of shadow meld, which can be activated every 30 seconds for 15 seconds, which is perma- enough for me. (Super Speed is off.)



So there you go. Also, numbers reflect Alpha Slot Cardiac Radial Tier 4. (Energize and Power Sink not activated, Power Surge wasn't taken in the build.)

Damage wise: (Second number is with build up)

Sting of the Wasp - 164.1 (277.7)
Flashing Steel - 145.0 (241.9)
Assassin's Blade - 340.3 (585.0)
Divine Avalanche - 105.3 (187.5)
Soaring Dragon - 249.0 (425.2)
Golden Dragonfly - 315.3 (538.5)

All powers recharge in less than 3 secs, most under 2. Accuracy is at least 150%

to obscureent

See that doesnt help you at all, cause here is the problem.

If you took that exact same build, and made it a katana/Elec scrapper instead of a katana/elec stalker, with whirling lotus instead of AS, you would have very similar or higher sustained single target damage, Significantly better AOE damage (which is very useful), and more HPs for when something does get through your defense.

In 95% of the encounters in this game, the AOE damage from whirling lotus+more HP is better than the increased ST burst damage of AS.

Every other aspect of the characters will be functionally identical, even stealth since SS+Stealth IO is easy enough to fit in on the scrapper which is basically all you need for PvE. I think technically your defense may drop by the suppressed value of hide, but for things parry helps with you will be capped either way, and for everything else the extra HP will still be better

I think all most people are arguing, is that if the stalker is going to give up significant AOE damage AND a significant amount of health, just to get better single target damage, the advantage they get in single target damage should be better than "will probably do slightly more damage in short to medium length single target fights, and might end up doing less damage in sustained single target fights"

[edit] made clear that last sentence was just referring to single target damage.

Well I think I have to agree with you, Jet Boy.

While I can hear plenty of peoples complaints about the "issue", I still find them to be unwarranted based on the fact that if they get all these AoE damage buffs and hit point increases, there won't be a difference between scrappers and stalkers, much like the complaints about tanks and brutes, or even brutes and scrappers.

The class is a solid formula. While, No they don't do the highest damage, or have the most AoE, they do provide for an effective team mate if used properly, like all classes.

And to Shadowy Dream, I think that if you DO try to replicate the build as a scrapper or even a brute, you'll find your defenses will fall radically short of the ones posted above. I know this because I tried it myself. While the damage will be higher, the recharge will be slower. And if you can't survive the mobs, whats the point of all your damage?

I think it's very unlikely that Stalkers will get more damage. Not base damage anyway. Better criticals in some way, maybe, but still unlikely IMO. As has been pointed out there is a lot of overlap among melee ATs already so I think something that would further differentiate Stalkers, rather than bringing them closer to Scrappers or another AT, would be the way to go.

That could be a more interesting critical mechanic or something else. I'm fond of the suggestion that's been made before to give them more debuffs. Basically take the idea behind demoralize and take it to the next level.

I think for me a big part of the appeal of Stalkers over other melee ATs is that they reward thoughtful play over button mashing. Done right, I think Stalkers could be changed to enhance that appeal rather than reduce it.

By the way, people in beta forum report that Demoralize works even on an "instant dead" target because they changed how the debuff/buff works after the target is dead.

I haven't tried it yet.

This means your AS should still cause aoe fear if you kill a minion in one hit. Other powers like Chain Induction should still jump if the main target is dead.

By the way, this could be a good thing for Stalker sets that have zero aoe. They change when you can start taking Patron/Epic sets now.

Starting at lvl 35, you can choose tier 1-2
At lvl 41, you can take tier 3-4
At lvl 44, you can take tier 5


So you can have 100% critical fireball at lvl 44 or have Ball of Lightning at lvl 41.

I like my Stalkers a lot and I don't feel they are weaker than Scrappers. Just different. Stalkers...well stalk. They have amazing abilities in Hide/Placate to control the flow of battle. I have only two concerns with Stalkers:

1. Assassin's Strike should animate MUCH quicker and have a longer recharge. Stalkers are very similar to other MMOs Rogues, Assassins, etc. In most games the 'backstab' attack is very fast animating. This allows it to be used in battle consistently. Stalkers have this attack that they have to really consider whether they are even going to have time to get it off before the team has killed the NPC targeted. I've dropped AS on my Stalkers because I don't feel it's worth it.
   
2. Lack of AoE on some sets. Newer sets as somone noted above, are keeping their AoEs which is a tacit acknowledgment IMO, that they never should have been removed in the first place. In the sets where they remain like KM, I don't see any major difference in performance between Stalkers and Scrappers.

Heh, I think Diesel has it right on this one.

There are people who think the Ford Pinto was the best car Ford ever made and it should be still sold today! Heck how many thousands of people ran out and bought Cadillac Cimmarons?

Step 1: Admit there is a problem
Step 2: Fix it

Been done with stalkers for awhile now. I'll be more than happy to come back when they get fixed.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Diesel Punk Its amazing how many people refuse to admit that an AT has a genuine problem, and then further ignore that the people who want it fixed arent saying 'Make Stalkers into scrappers'. While we're at it, HEATs are absolutely fine and never need a buff again, Dual Pistols and Elec Blast are the top performing sets in the game, and Dominators getting an AT revamp is a waste of developer time.