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Sure stalkers put out ST damage well enough, but that's not exactly what's unique and special about stalkers.
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Originally Posted by Zem
Really? You have only to notice that bosses have 6x the hit points of minions and 3x the hit points of LTs to realize the most efficient way to damage them is NOT with AoEs, but with single-target attacks. At least not when they belong to spawns that contain a mix of minions, LTs, and bosses. And since people like to go on about how fast spawns die in their steamroller teams, BURST single-target damage would seem to be best of all to complement a team that already has AoE in abundance.
You don't need a Stalker to do burst ST damage, but a Stalker CAN do burst ST damage and do it quite well. |
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You will get gutted if you take away my flashing steel. I would rather give up Divine Avalanch before I would give up flashing steel.
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Originally Posted by Diesel Punk
What about...
New Stalker Buffs! Mod: 1.00 -> 1.2 AS now grants -20% Resistance on the Target struck, in addition to current Debuffs (Can be done so that it only grants it when AS doesnt crit/stalker isnt in hide, gives a Stalker incentive to fire AS while in combat, and helps improve team damage) Permable -Res Debuff Stalker Crit % Damage boosted from 100% to 200% New math! 1.2(Mod) x 1.2(New Crit Damage) x 1.2(-Res) x 2.0 (100% Damage slotting) = 3.456, which..is actually a bit higher than expected, though that doesnt quite factor in AS hurting DPS and not being applied to every single target either. Nor do all these changes have to happen. Or, this looks better and keeps in flavor: 1.00 (Current Mod) x 2 (100% Damage Slotting) x 1.2 (-Res Applied from AS on hard targets, after an AS so as not to boost the AS itself) x 1.2 (New Critical Damage) = 2.88 I'd also go through each of the legacy sets that had their AoE gutted and remove the first tier (Or the Cones for the Sword Sets) and replace them with their respective AoE, and the other 2 remaining attacks have their recharge time and DPA/DPS adjusted to make them viable for low level leveling and making attack chains. For instance: Ninja blade would lose Flashing Steel, Gain Lotus Drops, no changes to its Tier 1 or Tier 2 Attacks. Claws would lose Swipe to gain Spin, Slash and Strike would have their Recharge and Damage adjusted to keep within formula and make them have a smaller cooldown for easier low level fighting. |
Bump and Grind Bane/SoA
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Legendary Sannin Ninja/Pain Mastermind
Entoxicated Ninja/PSN Mastermind
Ninja Ryukenden Kat/WP Scrapper
Hellish Thoughts Fire/PSI Dominator
Thank You Devs for Merits!!!!
Ahhhhh.people complaining about damage and defenses....
Well.....damage is kind of low if you play a claws stalker....and defenses are a bit bad if you have regeneration as a secondary on your stalker......Wil power can be kind of difficult...though works really well in ITFs.
I dont know...my biggest complaint about playing a stalker is one of the Silly Factors....
You are in hidden mode....sneak up on a box...and you...MISS!!
or worse...
You are Dodged....=O_O=
Thats right the in-animate non-moving object box dodged your attack.....
of better still....
The Box...Deflects Your Attack..which removes your hide...and if there are other enemies there they will retaliate or attack you.
<_<...i just have been wondering since when have boxes and in-animate objects gotten to be better at avoiding assassin strikes.
Beware the NINJA BOX!!!
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I'll be over here in the realm of reasonable people. Good luck gutting me with your butter knife.
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Originally Posted by EvilRyu
You will get gutted if you take away my flashing steel. I would rather give up Divine Avalanch before I would give up flashing steel.
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I kind of agree and I kind of don't. Mainly on the HP part, I agree with everything else. Because I feel a scrapper is more likely to survive Marauder's Nova fist than a stalker would.|
Originally Posted by EvilRyu
Well I cant say that stalkers get better resists or defense than most brutes what I can say is we have zero surviability issues unless the player in front of the keyboard is stupid. I dont know why the same folks scream about hit points over and over like its going to matter in pve. If it can kill you with stalker hp it can still kill you with scrapper hp, thats pretty much how I see it. Its not like they are going to give us Tank hp or something. What I see to be the biggest issue is damage by far. We do not do enough period. Outside of Electric Melee stalkers pretty much got screwed over at every turn on this. A huge fix would be to make AS and/or hide inherrent and give us back the powers we lost for these so that we can be on par with scrappers. In addition to that we truely need some power reordering on some sets. There are so many ways to fix stalkers its just waiting on a dev to have the guts to do it. Lastly the devs need to get rid of that crazy line of thinking that stalkers have aggro issues on teams or that stalkers have survivability problems. I think once we move back from that things might actually get looked at.
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Personally the HP of a stalker should be the same as a scrapper or slightly bellow and not drastically bellow. It's what 2300 for a scrapper and 1600 for a stalker? Should be 2100 if not a little more IMO.
IMO Stalker should be right on the heals of a brute in terms of DPS under full fury. And they should have the highest base To-Hit/Accuracy of all classes.
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Nova fist pretty much will 1 shot anyone not at full hp, whether its scrapper, stalker or even tank. Its just that having full hp prevents that. Its one of the few times the 1 shot code actually works. So again more hp isnt going to help you here.
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Originally Posted by Stryph
I kind of agree and I kind of don't. Mainly on the HP part, I agree with everything else. Because I feel a scrapper is more likely to survive Marauder's Nova fist than a stalker would.
Personally the HP of a stalker should be the same as a scrapper or slightly bellow and not drastically bellow. It's what 2300 for a scrapper and 1600 for a stalker? Should be 2100 if not a little more IMO. IMO Stalker should be right on the heals of a brute in terms of DPS under full fury. And they should have the highest base To-Hit/Accuracy of all classes. |
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Entoxicated Ninja/PSN Mastermind
Ninja Ryukenden Kat/WP Scrapper
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Thank You Devs for Merits!!!!
Even with the lower damage output and survivability, I'd be satisfied with some mechanical edits (in descending order of priority):
1 - AS and Placate need to be uninterruptible. Full stop. The AT is designed around these effects going off reliably. RNG failure is not an option.
2 - Placate mag needs to be higher. As noted, EBs and some AVs (which is utterly backwards, but that's another discussion) can basically ignore one of the Stalker's core abilities as things are now.
3 - AS should autohit from hide. Long cooldown is acceptable as long as the darn thing connects. If the opening strike misses, you either stand there like an idiot waiting for it to recharge or play a weak scrapper for the duration of the battle.
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Originally Posted by Stryph
I kind of agree and I kind of don't. Mainly on the HP part, I agree with everything else. Because I feel a scrapper is more likely to survive Marauder's Nova fist than a stalker would.
Personally the HP of a stalker should be the same as a scrapper or slightly bellow and not drastically bellow. It's what 2300 for a scrapper and 1600 for a stalker? Should be 2100 if not a little more IMO. IMO Stalker should be right on the heals of a brute in terms of DPS under full fury. And they should have the highest base To-Hit/Accuracy of all classes. |
AT Base Max
Stalker 1204.8 1606.4
Scrapper 1338.6 2409.5
My scrapper who is IOd to the teeth and has every accolade available along with True Grit barely has 2100HP, so that is not an easy number to reach without an extreme focus on it.
However Stalkers and Scrappers have a 500 point difference almost in their caps too, my scrapper has an additional 750hp from base, and Stalkers would cap from there easily.
As for DPS wise, currently just looking at the modifiers and whatnot, Stalkers at base capability are just ahead of Tanks when it comes to damage, and are behind Scrappers and Brutes.
At max they can outshine Brutes I but not Scrappers until you get into big groups of Melee feeding their teaming Crit %
Which is another thing that needs to be adjusted, the Stalker crit bonus from teaming needs a wider radius, maybe more on par with leadership. That alone could bring their DPS up quite a bit, I know 5 teammates make a Stalkers damage equal to a Scrapper, and 8 would allow them to exceed a scrapper.
Just increase the radius on the stalker crit bonus from Teamates.
Good lord Thats all that the crappy AT can expect to get from the devs because its not alot of work.
When something good happens to me, I can never enjoy it....
I am always too busy looking for the inevitable punchline...
BEHOLD THE POWER OF CHEESE!
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It's hardly "almost double". Lotus does 36% more damage than Flashing Steel per target and that 36% more is from a delayed DoT. The initial burst from Lotus is the same damage as Flashing Steel. The critical hit portion from Lotus is the same damage as Flashing Steel. Endurance and recharge time are more than twice that of Flashing Steel. The ten target limit is great when you have ten targets to hit, but you far more often have fewer targets than that so clustered together. Flashing Steel is efficient on damage and endurance with just TWO targets and with a six second base recharge time it's something you can use VERY often. Put some procs in it.|
Originally Posted by Diesel Punk
Because you know, Flashing steel with 130 degree arc and 5 target cap is the same as Lotus Drops with a 10 target Cap and almost double the damage.
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No, I would not want Lotus at the expense of Flashing Steel. It would reduce damage output.
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It's going to help you somewhere, Ryu. The entire game is not composed of enemies that only either do minor damage or else hit for 2500+ a pop. When you're killed, it's not always by 1000 hit points. Any time you receive just enough damage to be killed, a scrapper in your boots would not have died. And that's just a statistical certainty. More hit points is more survival. I really can't believe you're arguing against something that obvious.|
Originally Posted by EvilRyu
Nova fist pretty much will 1 shot anyone not at full hp, whether its scrapper, stalker or even tank. Its just that having full hp prevents that. Its one of the few times the 1 shot code actually works. So again more hp isnt going to help you here.
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And you don't need to argue against it. Stalkers should be less survivable, provided of course they have the damage to compensate for that.
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You said Hide, Assassin Strike, and Placate. What is Assassin Strike but the best single-target attack in the game? If Stalkers were designed for anything it is getting right up next to a big important target (Hide) and then hitting it with the hardest ST attack possible (AS). At the same time you're debuffing everyone else around them. That's unique enough for me. It beats just stomping around smashing things. If I wanted that play-style, I'd play a Brute.
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Originally Posted by all_hell
Sure stalkers put out ST damage well enough, but that's not exactly what's unique and special about stalkers.
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Interruptible, with a relatively long animation time, that's only "the best single-target attack" conditionally - it's base damage and DPA are low and only the extra critical damage on it makes it worthwhile in most sets*. Those are the main complaints about it.|
Originally Posted by Zem
You said Hide, Assassin Strike, and Placate. What is Assassin Strike but the best single-target attack in the game?
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As for "expanding the radius for team criticals"... how about simply eliminating the radius and counting team size, period? It's faster to process, means that the Stalker's performance is still dependent on having teammates but not on what they're doing, and doesn't affect solo performance at all.
* - by DPA, assuming no interruption, it's ranked as follows: BS: 4th; Claws: 6th; DM: 5th; DB: 3rd; Elec: 5th; EM: 6th; KM: 4th; MA: 7th; Kat/NB: 6th; Spines: 3rd. KM's AS is the highest, and it's the 30th best DPA for Stalkers outside of hidden status.
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Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle
it has gone from unconscionable to downright appalling that we have no way of measuring our characters' wetness.
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Originally Posted by Brillig
It's hard to beat the entertainment value of Whackjob Wednesdays.
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Poor choice of words. I was thinking of the alpha strike since I'm answering the question, "What can my stalker do with Hide, Assassin Strike, and Placate?". No, of course it's not the best general-use ST attack. But I'll argue it's the best opener against a typical spawn most of the time. Elec Stalkers are an exception due to how Lightning Rod works and solo or on a team without much other AoE damage, an AoE might be a better choice for those Stalkers than have a good one.|
Originally Posted by Siolfir
Interruptible, with a relatively long animation time, that's only "the best single-target attack" conditionally - it's base damage and DPA are low and only the extra critical damage on it makes it worthwhile in most sets*. Those are the main complaints about it.
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But nearly every team I join has "minion killing" taken care of and since I care about moving the team forward rather than just seeing the most orange numbers, attacking bosses is the best way to do that and Assassin Strike the best tool for doing THAT. At least for an opener.
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Most any brute, scrapper, blaster or what have you can use super speed, (and/or a stealth IO) and get results similar enough to make the differences negligible.|
Originally Posted by Zem
You said Hide, Assassin Strike, and Placate. What is Assassin Strike but the best single-target attack in the game? If Stalkers were designed for anything it is getting right up next to a big important target (Hide) and then hitting it with the hardest ST attack possible (AS). At the same time you're debuffing everyone else around them.
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Hide has all this extra stealth, but it rarely makes a difference in PVE.
Getting away clean from a kill is not very well rewarded in game.
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Originally Posted by Zem
That's unique enough for me.
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Originally Posted by Zem
It beats just stomping around smashing things. If I wanted that play-style, I'd play a Brute.
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Sometimes I feel like buffing etc and I will play a corr or a def.
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I didn't ask that question, fyi.
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Originally Posted by Zem
Poor choice of words. I was thinking of the alpha strike since I'm answering the question, "What can my stalker do with Hide, Assassin Strike, and Placate?".
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You said this:|
Originally Posted by all_hell
I didn't ask that question, fyi.
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| Off-hand, I can't think of a situation in game where hide, assassin strike, and placate are a part of THE most useful way to deal with a problem. |
Despite all their other problems, Stalkers are generally regarded, at the very least, as having the edge on ST burst damage and it is because of being able to start with Assassin Strike from Hide. It really doesn't matter that it takes 3 seconds to animate. You are not doing more damage to that boss with your Stalker in 3 seconds ANY other way.
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Thank goodness.|
Originally Posted by all_hell
Most any brute, scrapper, blaster or what have you can use super speed, (and/or a stealth IO) and get results similar enough to make the differences negligible.
Hide has all this extra stealth, but it rarely makes a difference in PVE. Getting away clean from a kill is not very well rewarded in game. |
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| Please note that I am not saying that stalkers aren't unique, but rather that the game has little that rewards stalkers' uniqueness. |
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With Scrapper Numbers:|
Originally Posted by Zem
It's hardly "almost double". Lotus does 36% more damage than Flashing Steel per target and that 36% more is from a delayed DoT. The initial burst from Lotus is the same damage as Flashing Steel. The critical hit portion from Lotus is the same damage as Flashing Steel. Endurance and recharge time are more than twice that of Flashing Steel. The ten target limit is great when you have ten targets to hit, but you far more often have fewer targets than that so clustered together. Flashing Steel is efficient on damage and endurance with just TWO targets and with a six second base recharge time it's something you can use VERY often. Put some procs in it.
No, I would not want Lotus at the expense of Flashing Steel. It would reduce damage output. |
Lotus: 85 base, 170 Enhanced
Flashing:62 Base, 124 Enhanced
Alright. I was hyperbolistic. I apologize, I should be more accurate in what I say. I tend to over exaggerate and thats not my goal.
However, you're assuming in favor of Flashing Steel for making it seem better. Lets see we get average targets and average damage for each power.
3 Dam/2 Acc/1 Rech:
Flashing Deals 124 Damage every 4.21 seconds
Lotus deals 170 every 9.83
Average targets: Flashing caps at 5, deals its damage to 2.5 targets every 4.21 seconds:
124 x 2.5/4.21 = 73.634 average AoE DPS
170 x 5/9.83 = 86.469
So on Average, Lotus drops will outdamage Flashing Steel.
What about Maxed?
Flashing Steel, max targets of 5 = 147.26 average AoE DPS
Lotus, max targets of 10 = 172.93
So at what point does Lotus Drops lose to Flashing Steel?
Flashing Steel, 3 targets = 88.36
Lotus, 3 targets = 58.88
Flashing also wins at 4 targets, and 5 targets, if you can get 5 people in your 7 foot range consistently enough to spam it.
Lotus outpaces Flashing on large teams (Where Stalkers need help the most) and when it can leverage its larger AoE cap. Now for iTrials, and for teaming in general, Lotus drops would be better.
It'd be less efficient for Stalkers who solo to have Lotus, for damage and for endurance, but for teaming situations (In which stalkers need the most help) Lotus drops is more Damage/Endurance/Recharge efficient.
For those reasons I'd rather replace Flashing with Lotus, and add AoEs in general to Stalkers.
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Then why do any ATs have AoE at all? Why should Scrappers have AoE when Blasters and Tanks can do it?|
Originally Posted by Zem
You said this:
And I gave you a situation where, in my opinion, it is. Everyone always goes on about AoE and I constantly remind them that in a spawn that has a variety of enemy ranks present, the ones with the most hit points are best attacked with single-target burst damage while someone else leads with AoE to take out the lesser enemies. That way the larger number of easier enemies falls at around the same time the few harder targets do instead of spending additional time to finish off the bosses that weren't killed by the AoEs. Despite all their other problems, Stalkers are generally regarded, at the very least, as having the edge on ST burst damage and it is because of being able to start with Assassin Strike from Hide. It really doesn't matter that it takes 3 seconds to animate. You are not doing more damage to that boss with your Stalker in 3 seconds ANY other way. |
The point isnt that everyone else can take out whats around you, and Stalkers should be forced to only fight bosses, it's that Stalkers are pidgeon holed into fighting bosses while everyone else can be more flexible.
Ice is a Single Target oriented blast set, but it still gets a cone for some AoE damage to help out. So does Sonic Blast. I don't believe Stalkers should have Lightning Rod class AoEs in each set so they dominate the entire playing field, I think theyre single target burst specialists and thats fine.
I just want a Stalker to be able to switch roles and help deal AoE damage when a team is light on that. Given the chance to take a Stalker on an AoE light TF, or a Blaster, at least I know that any Blaster can help a little on the AoE side.
Stalkers should be as flexible as every other AT, and should dominate the Melee field for Single target damage. They currently do neither. And further, with the Incarnate Trials focusing on dealing damage to hard targets that burst is absolutely useless on, they fall behind in the DPS department again because their abilities are tied into hit and run when those are a 'Beat on a sack of HP' fights.
I just want my Stalker to be as helpful as everyone else when I play them, while maintaining their unique roles. I love the idea of an Assassins Class, I've always loved Rogues. Let's give them a little love, yanno?
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I must be doing a poor job of communicating.|
Originally Posted by Zem
Not sure I believe it rewards anyone for being particularly unique.
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It's not about being rewarded for being "unique", but about the defining characteristics, the "uniqueness", being rewarded.
It's obvious that you don't agree that different sorts of missions could leverage stalkers' abilities any better than the ones we have now. But, I do.
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I am not saying any other AT should NOT have the AoEs they have. I am saying there's no more reason to suggest that Stalkers should have to have more AoEs than they currently have than to suggest they should have AoE controls or debuffs. Generally speaking, it's not what they are designed to do. "Generally" being the operative word there. A few primaries give more AoE at the expense of ST if that's your thing. Why should every primary be the same?|
Originally Posted by Diesel Punk
Then why do any ATs have AoE at all? Why should Scrappers have AoE when Blasters and Tanks can do it?
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| The point isnt that everyone else can take out whats around you, and Stalkers should be forced to only fight bosses, it's that Stalkers are pidgeon holed into fighting bosses while everyone else can be more flexible. |
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| I just want a Stalker to be able to switch roles and help deal AoE damage when a team is light on that. Given the chance to take a Stalker on an AoE light TF, or a Blaster, at least I know that any Blaster can help a little on the AoE side. |
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| Stalkers should be as flexible as every other AT |
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| And further, with the Incarnate Trials focusing on dealing damage to hard targets that burst is absolutely useless on, they fall behind in the DPS department again because their abilities are tied into hit and run when those are a 'Beat on a sack of HP' fights. |
P.S. None of our abilities are tied to hit and run.
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Example? It's not that I disagree. I just can't think of anything they could do and that they would WANT to do which could leverage a Stalker's abilities to any significant extent without actually REQUIRING a stalker to be on the team.
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Originally Posted by all_hell
It's obvious that you don't agree that different sorts of missions could leverage stalkers' abilities any better than the ones we have now. But, I do.
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You don't need a Stalker to do burst ST damage, but a Stalker CAN do burst ST damage and do it quite well.
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