Okay so taking into account what most people want why not increase the Stalker critical multiplier so that they deal more damage in controlled amounts? This would drastically increase Stalker damage output and still keep the Stalker play style. I agree that Stalkers are okay in survivability, though I do think they could use some more HP to avoid being random chance one hit during trials, but this change would have the potential to increase their damage beyond that of a Scrapper/Brute but still not step on any toes because they still wouldn't be as survivable.
No relation to Arachnos!
Part Pack: Now the majority of players know how we, PvPers, have felt for years now. Don't want to be so "civil" now that you have been completly ignored, do you?
Quote:
I actually base my idea on needing buffed purely on late game play.|
Originally Posted by GreenFIame
I just think people don't no how to play them, they not like most Melee toons, Hide comes in Handy is also a key part of playing them, Also Assassin's Strike and Placate. There survivability is good and if no one believe me, then stop playing this game you Noob. They can stay alive much more better then any Scrapper and other melee toon. Again you just need tp no how to play them, ask people and get some advice on builds and other Techniques.
|
Low Hit Points? Not a problem. I do wish there was a higher cap on HP, but that's just because it's so easy to reach with a lot of the Stalker combos. And having powers like Dull Pain, when at cap HP, turns Dull Pain into just a long recharge self heal.
Now, when teaming or solo, going up against harder targets, they interrupted placate easily, see through hide, and otherwise didn't allow me to make use of the Stalker tricks at all.
Seriously! I was running through the Maria Jenkins arc with my Stalker. IOed to the gills. And 90% of the time, the AVs would hit pass through the softcapped defenses everytime I tried to use placate, and when they do that, it makes it impossible to land an assassin strike follow up.
Now, while they interrupted it, it didn't always stop it from working. They'd hit right as I used it, ruin my placate for a crit/AS, but wander off as if they forgot me.
Sooo...I could just sit there for another 8 seconds to get back into hide status, but then that's 8 seconds of them regenning and making it pointless.
BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection
Quote:
I think most ATs start out-damaging Stalker at lvl 32+. :P Stalker isn't the only one good at focusing on the hard targets because quite frankly, some of the Stalkers like MA and EM can ONLY do that and nothing else until patron aoe (lvl 44?). |
Originally Posted by Syndace
Stalker's are great at focusing on the hard targets that give the rest of the team massive headaches, especially in the lower levels. From levels 6-40 I can excel on most teams. However I would have to agree that closer to level 50 stalkers lose a lot of value in many areas. Other AT's get much stronger and stalkers do not receive and added value imo. They are great for PvP though...
Any one of my doms can dish out more damage than any one of my stalkers in PvE at 50. |
Personally I find a capable Dominator the best at "reducing threat".
And who is a bigger threat than an AV? During the long fight, Stalker is probably the worst of the four melee. Stalker's assassin strike actually lowers your dps in many cases. You are better off just scrappying.
I no longer think Stalker is the best at eliminating hard targets because stalker is only good at the first 10s when the setup is right.
What's left is to normalize all Assassin Strikes and improve Stalker's old sets (Claw, MA and EM)! You don't need to bring back the missing PbAoE attack. You just need to make the existing ones better! For example, make Slice a WIDER and LONGER cone.
Stalkers are a Single target burst AT in an AoE Burst/ST DPS focused game. Wrong idea for the wrong game.
Make them have UNMATCHED ST DPS and weak AoE, and it'll generally fix the AT. Lowest survivabilty, Highest Damage. Period. Who cares if Scrappers deal less damage? My Scrapper can TANK all the iTrials, AND Deals more damage.
Pfeh. Balance.
Quote:
If you read the one complaining mostly about hit points, it was probably my thread. You didn't read it right, I wasn't complaining about the hit points we get, but the hit point CAP that's broken since we are only 400 hp away from the cap and are the only melee AT that cannot take significant advantage of the +maxHP powers. Even the Epic hero/villain ATs can take advantage of their high HP cap (say, Peacebringer with Dull Pain + Dwarf can reach 2000+ hp), Stalkers' Dull Pain, HPT, Hoarfrost (Ice, upcoming) will be stuck at 1606. Base hp on Stalkers is fine imho.|
Originally Posted by obscureent
So... I've been hearing chatter that a lot of people don't like stalkers or that stalkers aren't strong enough. Riddle me confused. I'll admit that I haven't read too much into the 3+ page long threads about people complaining about them, but the first one I saw was complaining about hit points.
Now I've made two stalker builds so far, and I must say that the survivability of those two toons is astonishing. They have better Defense/Resistances than most brutes, and dish out more than reasonable amounts of damage. Fact is, I find the Stalkers to be one of the best archetypes in the game. So let the trolling begin and someone tell me what the problem is here. I can post those builds if someone says I'm on crack. Thanks. |
But since you said Stalkers have better RESISTANCES than most Brutes I'm not even sure if you know the difference between defense and resistance, or what a HP Cap is, so you don't need to post builds to prove you're not on crack or lack understanding of the game mechanics.
Quote:
I agree. When I reduce a red or pink mob to almost zero health with Seismic Smash or KO Blow at level 50, it feels like I AS'ed him. Difference is, I used a 1.5 sec attack (S.Smash) or a 2.23 s (KO Blow). And if I didn't one-shot the guy, I just use another fast attack like Haymaker, Stone Mallet, whatever, sometimes Boxing will do it lol. It's much faster to use two normal attacks than one AS, and at 50 an AS wouldn't one shot any orange+ lt anyway (dunno about yellows, I hardly play with yellow mobs at 50).|
Originally Posted by Jibikao
I think most ATs start out-damaging Stalker at lvl 32+. :P
I no longer think Stalker is the best at eliminating hard targets because stalker is only good at the first 10s when the setup is right. |
And if there's another boss/lt right next? I just use the attacks again, or reverse the order, like some mallet + S. Smash if the big hitter isn't recharged. No need to get Hidden again or placate to AS properly again (and placate is risky on a big mob, and next to useless if you're not softcapped). So yeah my Brutes are better than my Stalkers with hard targets at higher levels, and I'm not even talking about EBs or AVs because I think Stalkers shouldn't be the DPS kings, only the burst kings, including the initial AoE burst like KM can do with the 100% crit on the PbAoE.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Leo_G
The situation most face with stalkers/scrappers is when you min/max. If the scrap can't plan it out? Build them to just overwhelm the challenge. It basically means if there is a challenge in the game, you build the character so it's no longer a challenge. On a Stalker, the fight is still a challenge because you can lose but if you sequence everything, you turn a challenge into a one-sided fight.
I don't want this to change. Personally, I think Scraps should be the better DPS fighter. If Stalkers were ever to recieve a buff, I'd like their criticals improved. Leave their base damage lower. Make hidden/placate criticals 3x damage vs 2x and make regular criticals 2.5x damage. Stalkers should seek to sequence their abilities to overcome challenges vs just building to overcome everything. |
I like my fire/traps corr because she makes me think and plan. I'm not the kind of guy that plants 8 trip mines and pulls when solo (like those /loldevices fans like to do taking 5 minutes to kill a mob), but I have to face each battle accordingly when solo. I rush into mobs when solo and I am able to kill a +3 spawn with bosses deploying my traps and using my primary, but lots of times after doing that I got cocky and ran into a bunch of minions without any strategy and got toasted. So it's a cool toon to play because it requires thinking and planning basically all the time solo.
The difference is that obviously a fire/traps corr is also a great contribution to any team, including debuffs, buffs and AoE damage.
Quote:
This doesn't make a lot of sense actually. Seismic Smash does not do more damage than an Assassin Strike. Even at full fury. You aren't coming even close to one-shotting a red LT (unless by "mob" there you meant "minion") without a lot of +dmg from a teammate, in which case the Stalker is also doing that much more damage and easily one-shotting the orange or even red LT. |
Originally Posted by Kioshi
I agree. When I reduce a red or pink mob to almost zero health with Seismic Smash or KO Blow at level 50, it feels like I AS'ed him. Difference is, I used a 1.5 sec attack (S.Smash) or a 2.23 s (KO Blow). And if I didn't one-shot the guy, I just use another fast attack like Haymaker, Stone Mallet, whatever, sometimes Boxing will do it lol. It's much faster to use two normal attacks than one AS, and at 50 an AS wouldn't one shot any orange+ lt anyway (dunno about yellows, I hardly play with yellow mobs at 50).
|
Not saying the Brute doesn't outpace the Stalker. Probably does. But your comparison here is a little bit exaggerated. Sounds like you're comparing a Brute at full fury with a pocket Kin to a solo Stalker. Fury's good... but it's not that good.
Villains: Annie Alias, Dr. Amperical, Shade Golem, Knight Marksman
Heroes: The Clockwork Mime, Soccerpunch, The Fissioneer, Samurai Houston, Oversteer
Join The X-Patriots on Virtue!
Quote:
I would agree with something like this. I feel the AS damage against EB's and AV's is still lethargic. That's just me.|
Originally Posted by Necromatic
This is it. +1 bil.
Stalkers need to take out the hard targets. Not tie them up, mez them, or aggro them. Straight take them out. They need to do so in a way that makes them; desirable on a team, scales with team size and level, not over powered. The best way I can think of is MORE damage on the critical side. I know the critical chance is tied to team number, they also need to adjust it so that the multiplier is also. More team members translates to more damage. But not to just any mob type. In fact, in a team setting, I would debuff damage against minions, leave the amount the same on leuts, double against bosses and triple on Ebs and above. simplified formula: current damage(everything they have now) + team crit multiplier + mob type adjustment |
Also, in regards to my dom's outdamaging stalkers... I have a /fire and sleet. Single targets go down very quickly held or not.
<long post of useless junk based on incorrect assumption of where the Brute damage cap really was deleted>
don't mind me, just cleaning up...
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle
it has gone from unconscionable to downright appalling that we have no way of measuring our characters' wetness.
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Brillig
It's hard to beat the entertainment value of Whackjob Wednesdays.
|
Hmmm...maybe just fixing Placate/Hide so it's not so wonky. Or just Placate. It puts you in hide status and can keep you there untill you attack, that way you can placate > Assassin Strike hard targets without having the placate's hidden status wasted.
BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection
Quote:
It'd be nice if the Placate magnitude was high enough to affect EBs - it works like any other mez, albeit one not affected by PToD, and it's only mag 4. Assuming you've got sufficient DPS to eventually wear them down, it can be easier to survive against an AV than the downgraded EB version, just because you can actually use Placate. Then again, if you just pop a lot of reds and hit the damage cap, you can tear through EB hit points fast enough that it often doesn't become an issue. |
Originally Posted by BrandX
Hmmm...maybe just fixing Placate/Hide so it's not so wonky. Or just Placate. It puts you in hide status and can keep you there untill you attack, that way you can placate > Assassin Strike hard targets without having the placate's hidden status wasted.
|
On top of the magnitude issue, while most debuffs that Stalker primaries have are ignored and don't remove the Placate from the affected mob, some cause it to "break".
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle
it has gone from unconscionable to downright appalling that we have no way of measuring our characters' wetness.
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Brillig
It's hard to beat the entertainment value of Whackjob Wednesdays.
|
Quote:
But Stalkers have AoE burst. Just eat a red, pop BU, and use hide/placate with Burst, 1kcuts, Throw Spines, Thunderstrike/LR, Fire Ball, etc.|
Originally Posted by Civility
Stalkers are a Single target burst AT in an AoE Burst/ST DPS focused game. Wrong idea for the wrong game.
|
You have the potential of doing AoEs with 50% crit chance, and two of them if one is from hide and the other is in conjunction with Placate. Who else can do that but Blasters with Aim+BU?
Quote:
I think if I was able to reliably use Assassin Strike on my lvl 50, KM/WP Stalker, I'd have thought the damage was fine, and the AT fine.|
Originally Posted by Siolfir
It'd be nice if the Placate magnitude was high enough to affect EBs - it works like any other mez, albeit one not affected by PToD, and it's only mag 4. Assuming you've got sufficient DPS to eventually wear them down, it can be easier to survive against an AV than the downgraded EB version, just because you can actually use Placate. Then again, if you just pop a lot of reds and hit the damage cap, you can tear through EB hit points fast enough that it often doesn't become an issue.
On top of the magnitude issue, while most debuffs that Stalker primaries have are ignored and don't remove the Placate from the affected mob, some cause it to "break". |
But even 45% Defense didn't help to reliably use Placate -> Assassin Strike.
And for having to use a another power just to use the signature power, and having it fail OFTEN is terrible.
BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection
Quote:
Nitpick: The brute damage cap is 675% over base or 775% of base.|
Originally Posted by Siolfir
Since the Brute damage cap is 675% (6.75x base), they can't get there to match it.
|
ie:
BaseDamage * (1 + 6.75)
or
BaseDamage * 7.75
Combat Attributes shows the former, but don't forget the base 100%.
Just had a random thought (and I may not be the first person to think it but I don't remember seeing it before, although I HAVE been gone from the boards for a while.)
What if assassin strike landed enemies hit with a debuff that made your other attacks hit harder. Lets just say for the sake of making up a random (and probably badly balanced number) your attacks against ASd targets had an "autocrit" for an extra 50% damage in addition to your normal crit chance. This boosts their ST damage against things like EB/AV enemies while it doesn't do much to lower ranked enemies (where they generally dont need help.)
So made up attack thats hitting for 200 and normal crits while the AV is debuffed may look something like this
Hit AV for 200
Hit AV for 100 autocrit bonus
Hit AV for 200 crit damage
Insert standard I am not a programmer disclaimer here.
Just eliminate the purple patch effect for stalkers.
Dark Bard, Zoobait, Debacle
jmsb
Por vezes d� vontade...
chucknorriss
speak american godamnit
Quote:
Hm, good catch. I thought it was lowered to 675% instead of +675%, though - I was remembering the base, just thought the cap was lowered much more than it really was. Shows how often I play anymore. |
Originally Posted by Sarrate
Nitpick: The brute damage cap is 675% over base or 775% of base.
ie: BaseDamage * (1 + 6.75) or BaseDamage * 7.75 Combat Attributes shows the former, but don't forget the base 100%. |
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle
it has gone from unconscionable to downright appalling that we have no way of measuring our characters' wetness.
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Brillig
It's hard to beat the entertainment value of Whackjob Wednesdays.
|
Quote:
Nah. It's useful for when you're higher level than things. Faster street hunting - on the few times I have to bother, usually for accolades - is nice. |
Originally Posted by Necromatic
Just eliminate the purple patch effect for stalkers.
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle
it has gone from unconscionable to downright appalling that we have no way of measuring our characters' wetness.
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Brillig
It's hard to beat the entertainment value of Whackjob Wednesdays.
|
Quote:
Those are the only sets with AoE. The most successful sets being Elec (Which has 2-4 AoEs depending how you look at it) and Spines (With Spine Burst and Throw Spines). KM while its a mediocre set, has a 100% Crit rate with Burst, which brings it up for how powerful its AoE is, and I find is absolutely acceptable.|
Originally Posted by Leo_G
But Stalkers have AoE burst. Just eat a red, pop BU, and use hide/placate with Burst, 1kcuts, Throw Spines, Thunderstrike/LR, Fire Ball, etc.
You have the potential of doing AoEs with 50% crit chance, and two of them if one is from hide and the other is in conjunction with Placate. Who else can do that but Blasters with Aim+BU? |
But what about the rest of the sets that had their AoE gutted? EM? Katana? Martial Arts? Broadsword? And especially Claws, with Spin being one of the best PBAoEs in the entire game.
This game has a strong AoE focus, and while in general play its not necessary because everyone has AoEs, when Stalkers are supposed to be one of those damage dealers that helps the team move faster in general, the sets lacking even a weak AoE (which actually deal more damage over time and are incredibly efficient when you get 4-10 things in them) just fall behind in helping.
I like the idea that Stalker Criticals hit for more. Stalkers dealing 200% Additional damage with their controlled crits seems like a fantastic place to start, but overall I feel their damage could come up, at least to a 1, preferably 1.10 modifier in addition to that change.
They are simply the weakest for their mitigation, they should offset that by being the best for Melee damage. Which I think is entirely fair, melee Glass Cannons.
Bring their damage up a bit, give them ALL some AoE in such an AoE focused game, and give them harder hitting Crits and I think we'd see most of the complaints fall by the wayside.
Oh and if you want AoE comparisons, dont even look at Blasters. Take a look at Scrappers and Brutes with Warmace, Fire Melee, Super Strength, Shield Charge and Spin.
And 1k Cuts and Shockwave are powerful AoEs too, but with Shockwave requiring some strategery for abuse and 1K Being kinda difficult to position for maximum effect (And Dual Blades in general being subpar for stalkers, seperate discussion) on top of Scrapper Epics being locked away until level 44 for a SINGLE AoE for sets without, 44 levels is a long time, even longer to get slots, to get an AoE on a 32 second cooldown base, compared to attacks like Spin, which has what, a 10 second base recharge and hits harder?
I also wanted to add in, this is how the Melee ATs generally fall out at the moment:
Tank: Generally is the hardest to kill AT. A base HP of 2000+ along with the higher Defense Modifier of 1.00 makes them incredibly solid for any set, and along with a base mod of damage of what, .8 (corrected), with Bruising means they deal decent damage, while having a lower cap for damage, and can roll with the toughest hits. They are easily outdamaged by any other Melee AT though. Except Stalkers, especially in large team situations abusing AoEs and their Auras.
Brutes: They have higher highs, and lower lows. They have .75 Mitigation, Lower HP than a Tank but more than a scrapper, a .75 (corrected) Modifier, which puts them under tanks until you begin to factor in Fury. But they do have tanker caps (90%) and Fury, along with a 675% Damage Bonus cap. Meaning solo theyre definitely respectable, and on teams with buffs flying they are engines of destruction that can take a hit and keep trucking. Along with access to some of the best Melee sets in the game (Warmace, Better Claws for IOing, Super Strength, Stone Melee). Stalkers neither outdamage, nor outsurvive a brute. Along with a Brutes solid AoE Mitigation in many sets, they simply destroy anything in their path.
Scrapper: Scrappers are a bit weaker on the mitigation side. .75 modifier for their Defenses, and less HP than a brute, but still able to tank some pretty tough enemies (My Shielder can personally tank the iTrials) along with dishing out some incredible damage. Scrappers Melee modifier of 1.25 along with Crits make then deal the most damage at any given time, except when Brutes are buffed to extremes. For a character with consistently excellent performance, better Mitigation than a Stalker and access to the hardest hitting Melee attacks in the game (sometimes allowing them to 2-3 shot bosses) a Scrapper is an excellent AT.
Stalker: They have the lowest HP of the Melee ATs, and the lowest HP cap (On par with Corrupters and Defenders). Their mitigation modifier is .75 like Scrappers and Brutes as well, and Ninjitsu is actually one of the best Secondaries in the entire game (Sans Energy Aura soon possibly). With a Melee Modifier of 1.00 though, their damage is initially better than Tankers and Brutes. However with only Assassins Strike and Criticals to push them ahead of Tanks, and an extreme lack of AoEs, they do eventually fall behind in the realm of team contribution. Of course there are exceptions in certain sets, I leveled an Elec/WP and Elec/Ninjitsu stalker each to level 40 that were able to competently take Alphas and deal great damage on teams, but a single set being the only 'Decent' feeling Stalker of the many I've rolled seems...unfortunately sad. Tankers can outdamage them with Certain sets, especially AoE heavy sets, as Well as bring better mitigation with that damage (Looking at Stone Melee with Fault and incredible ST damage, Warmace with Crowd Control AND Shatter, Super Strength with Rage and Footstomp).
In all I feel simply that stalkers do have sufficient mitigation, the HP cap is an annoyance but not something that immediately screams it needs a change, however their damage contribution for teams seems to fall behind the supposedly weakest Melee damage dealer is somewhat disheartening.
I thoroughly enjoy stalkers, and I know they can be strong forces when played right and built right, but I feel they still need more help to be all they can be.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Diesel Punk
Stalkers dealing 200% Additional damage with their controlled crits seems like a fantastic place to start, but overall I feel their damage could come up, at least to a 1, preferably 1.10 modifier in addition to that change.
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Diesel Punk
Stalker: They have the lowest HP of the Melee ATs, and the lowest HP cap (On par with Corrupters and Defenders). [...] With a Melee Modifier of .9 though, [...]
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle
it has gone from unconscionable to downright appalling that we have no way of measuring our characters' wetness.
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Brillig
It's hard to beat the entertainment value of Whackjob Wednesdays.
|
Stalkers do less damage than tanks?
Really?
When something good happens to me, I can never enjoy it....
I am always too busy looking for the inevitable punchline...
BEHOLD THE POWER OF CHEESE!
Quote:
Not unless you're accounting for Tankers having more AoE attacks and persistent damage buffs. The post assumed identical modifiers for Tankers and Stalkers, then gave Tankers bruising to move them past. That's not really what's there, though.|
Originally Posted by Test_Rat
Stalkers do less damage than tanks?
Really? |
Tanker: 0.8 modifier, 20% resistance debuff. (1.2) * (0.8) = 0.96 effective modifier assuming they use their tier 1 attack.
Stalker: 1.0 modifier. Regardless of the attack they use.
On an AT-by-AT comparison, assuming identical attack chains and ignoring damage auras and/or AAO, Rage, Soul Drain, Blinding Feint, etc., the Stalker does slightly more damage.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle
it has gone from unconscionable to downright appalling that we have no way of measuring our characters' wetness.
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Brillig
It's hard to beat the entertainment value of Whackjob Wednesdays.
|
Quote:
He's confused about the current modifiers. Tankers are 0.8, not 0.9. Stalkers are 1.0, not 0.9. Also Bruising is only coming from the tanker's secondary tier 1 ST attack power so it's not likely boosting any of his (or anyone else's) AoE attacks by much... and it's only AoEs that Tankers could possibly challenge a Stalker on for damage. And then not EVERY Stalker.
|
Originally Posted by Test_Rat
Stalkers do less damage than tanks?
Really? |
Villains: Annie Alias, Dr. Amperical, Shade Golem, Knight Marksman
Heroes: The Clockwork Mime, Soccerpunch, The Fissioneer, Samurai Houston, Oversteer
Join The X-Patriots on Virtue!
Any one of my doms can dish out more damage than any one of my stalkers in PvE at 50.
This is it. +1 bil.
Stalkers need to take out the hard targets. Not tie them up, mez them, or aggro them. Straight take them out.
They need to do so in a way that makes them; desirable on a team, scales with team size and level, not over powered.
The best way I can think of is MORE damage on the critical side. I know the critical chance is tied to team number, they also need to adjust it so that the multiplier is also. More team members translates to more damage. But not to just any mob type. In fact, in a team setting, I would debuff damage against minions, leave the amount the same on leuts, double against bosses and triple on Ebs and above.
simplified formula:
current damage(everything they have now) + team crit multiplier + mob type adjustment
Dark Bard, Zoobait, Debacle
jmsb
Por vezes d� vontade...
chucknorriss
speak american godamnit