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Not to mention he got brute mods wrong. Tankers are .8 melee mod and brutes are *below that*. Brutes pass up tanker though with 20% fury.
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Originally Posted by Zem
He's confused about the current modifiers. Tankers are 0.8, not 0.9. Stalkers are 1.0, not 0.9. Also Bruising is only coming from the tanker's secondary tier 1 ST attack power so it's not likely boosting any of his (or anyone else's) AoE attacks by much... and it's only AoEs that Tankers could possibly challenge a Stalker on for damage. And then not EVERY Stalker.
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Brutes have a .75 melee modifier and surpass Tanker damage at 4% Fury, not counting Bruising. Basically, Brutes never really do less damage than Tankers since you can get to 20-30% Fury just standing there letting them shoot at you.
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Originally Posted by Leo_G
Not to mention he got brute mods wrong. Tankers are .8 melee mod and brutes are *below that*. Brutes pass up tanker though with 20% fury.
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The numbers change once you add slotting (or, for that matter, any other damage buff).|
Originally Posted by EvilGeko
Brutes have a .75 melee modifier and surpass Tanker damage at 4% Fury, not counting Bruising. Basically, Brutes never really do less damage than Tankers since you can get to 20-30% Fury just standing there letting them shoot at you.
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Using the really simplified damage formula: (base damage + damage buffs) * AT mod * resistance affects = final damage
Without slotting:
Tanker: (1) * 0.8 = 0.8 damage
Brute: (1 + x) * 0.75 = 0.8 damage; (0.8 / 0.75) - 1 = x; x = 6.7%
So unslotted and with no +damage buffs it's 4% Fury to exceed Tanker damage.
Scale 1 attack, 100% slotting:
Tanker: (1 + 1) * 0.8 = 1.6 damage
Brute: (1 + 1 + x) * 0.75 = 1.6 damage; 1.6 / 0.75 = 2 + x; x = 0.133
To exceed Tanker damage once the attack is slotted, a Brute needs 7% Fury.
With Bruising:
Tanker: (1 + 1) * 0.8 * 1.2 = 1.92
Brute: (1 + 1 + x) * 0.75 = 1.92; (1.92 / 0.75) - 2 = x; x = 0.56
So a Brute needs 28% Fury to equal a Tanker's damage once you account for Bruising.
Not hard to do - it's 2-3 consecutive attacks - but it's a bit more than 4%.
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Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle
it has gone from unconscionable to downright appalling that we have no way of measuring our characters' wetness.
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Originally Posted by Brillig
It's hard to beat the entertainment value of Whackjob Wednesdays.
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The word "slightly" is the key problem with Stalker's design. Tanker's survival is at least 2x better than Stalker (I would even say 3x with all the buffs) but Stalker's damage is only "slightly" better than Tanker? We have a design problem. |
Originally Posted by Siolfir
On an AT-by-AT comparison, assuming identical attack chains and ignoring damage auras and/or AAO, Rage, Soul Drain, Blinding Feint, etc., the Stalker does slightly more damage. |
Stalker's damage needs to be "much higher" than Tanker if we want to look at the Damage VS Survival ratio.
The new Bruising effect makes Tanker even more desirable on a large team. I don't play Tankers but their damage has never seen that low to me (definitely higher than Peacebringer Dwarf who I do play). Tanker's damage starts out low due to damage being Secondary but at high level, Tanker's survival goes through the roof (with set bonuses and everything) while doing "respectable" damage.
What's left is to normalize all Assassin Strikes and improve Stalker's old sets (Claw, MA and EM)! You don't need to bring back the missing PbAoE attack. You just need to make the existing ones better! For example, make Slice a WIDER and LONGER cone.
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Whoops. I thought they had the same Mods. Must be old confused memories. |
Originally Posted by Siolfir
Not unless you're accounting for Tankers having more AoE attacks and persistent damage buffs. The post assumed identical modifiers for Tankers and Stalkers, then gave Tankers bruising to move them past. That's not really what's there, though.
Tanker: 0.8 modifier, 20% resistance debuff. (1.2) * (0.8) = 0.96 effective modifier assuming they use their tier 1 attack. Stalker: 1.0 modifier. Regardless of the attack they use. On an AT-by-AT comparison, assuming identical attack chains and ignoring damage auras and/or AAO, Rage, Soul Drain, Blinding Feint, etc., the Stalker does slightly more damage. |
I was mostly referring to how tanks easily out-AoE any stalker build, and Bruising for a Single Target does put them almost on the same playing field.
And that's for an AT with a whole ton more Mitigation.
Also I was only referring to HP Caps, not HP bases, with Caps that are the same as the ATs not intended to have any direct Mitigation, that feels kind of weak. But again, I didnt necessarily feel that it needed to be changed either
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Another problem I see is that Stalker doesn't have access to secondaries that add more aoe damage like Fiery Aura and Shield Charge. Those two will make sure Tanker can out-aoe most Stalkers while surviving 2 or 3 times better.|
Originally Posted by Diesel Punk
Whoops. I thought they had the same Mods. Must be old confused memories.
I was mostly referring to how tanks easily out-AoE any stalker build, and Bruising for a Single Target does put them almost on the same playing field. And that's for an AT with a whole ton more Mitigation. |
It's like other melee ATs have set combinations that push them over the limit (to the point of being overpowered) while Stalker is "stuck" at what he can do.
In one way, you can say Stalker is better balanced but in another, Stalker is inferior due to the restrictions. Basically stalker damage problem doesn't just come from Primary set, Secondary sets as well.
What's left is to normalize all Assassin Strikes and improve Stalker's old sets (Claw, MA and EM)! You don't need to bring back the missing PbAoE attack. You just need to make the existing ones better! For example, make Slice a WIDER and LONGER cone.
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I said burst AoE is king, I didnt say all sets had burst AoE. The best operating stalker set? It has burst AoE in spades with Lightning Rod, Thunder Strike and Jacobs Ladder, along with Chain Induction for extra hits.|
Originally Posted by Leo_G
You said 'burst AoE'. None of the sets or powers you mention are really capable of that, at least not on the scale I mentioned with a stalker's.
When someone says 'burst' the qualifiers are usually two-fold: 1. being fast in as few clicks/little animation time as possible and 2. consistence not being effected by outside sources (i.e. pull that damage out your pocket or keeping it there). Spin, Dragon's Tail, Whirling Sword/hands...these aren't really 'bursty'. Even with BU, it's not (which claws doesn't have...you'd need 2 stacks of FU *then* the potential might be there). That isn't to say Scraps and Brutes can't, its just 'burst' is usually limited to specific builds/strats/powersets. Using Fiery Embrace + BU and Burn + AoE is very much burst. BU + Shield Charge is too, but Soul Drain on a WP char or Power Siphon with Inv is not. You either say you have double standards when it comes to specific builds, be they Brute Scrap or Stalk that are capable of ST, AoE burst/DPS, or you'll simply have to accept that certain sets will do ST dmg and other sets will do AoE dmg. You cannot hold up Stalker MA or EM and whine about lack of AoE or burst when there are sets like DB, Spines and Elec melee and how we'll be getting Street Justice with all the AoE intact and most likely the same treatment for every other new set we'll get. |
I don't have double standards, and I wasnt asking for EM to have burst AoE, I was asking for ANY AoE to help on teams when not everyone does have burst.
We dont always team with Blasters, or Shield Scrappers, or Double stacking Rage SS brutes, so for the instances where we are just doing general play itd be nice for Stalkers to have just one AoE, that can actually be a bit bursty with their BU and their Crit chance, to help speed things along. I dont expect them to shred through minions, but they should at least be able to help more than single target spamming to kill minions one at a time.
And if you dont think Spin is 'Bursty' go look at the low level farming thread in the Brute Forums
I know Spin is different on Scrappers/Stalkers/Widows vs Brutes, but it is an extremely powerful PBAoE attack regardless.Stalkers are Burst ST and thats about it, the more successful stalker sets combine Burst ST with medium AoE (or an Extreme AoE focus with Elec Melee, adding in some Single Target Burst to a set that could use it only made it better)
What can realistically be added to Stalker that doesn't involve "more damage"?
Let's assume we already have too many ATs doing too much damage. What would you add to Stalker's gameplay that is beneficial to both soloing and large team?
What's left is to normalize all Assassin Strikes and improve Stalker's old sets (Claw, MA and EM)! You don't need to bring back the missing PbAoE attack. You just need to make the existing ones better! For example, make Slice a WIDER and LONGER cone.
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Why are we taking damage out of the equation? |
Originally Posted by Jibikao
What can realistically be added to Stalker that doesn't involve "more damage"?
Let's assume we already have too many ATs doing too much damage. What would you add to Stalker's gameplay that is beneficial to both soloing and large team? |
Stalkers do two things, their role is two things:
They have a Melee Damage set, and a Secondary Mitigation set.
So either they need to tank using their secondary (Tanker side) or survive long enough to deal damage (Scrapper side)
Their primary is for damaging, and theyre supposed to be the kings of removing hard targets.
Either they need more damage, or they need to allow their team to deal more damage.
I think adding a Hefty (Like 30%) -Res buff to Assassins strike to simulate hitting someones Vitals (Maybe even increase the -ToHit thats entirely unresistable) to make constantly applying Assassins Strikes, even Mid battle when it slows your DPS to do otherwise, a really viable and HELPFUL thing.
And adding in more AoEs.
You cant give them more control, you cant give them more mitigation because they start to step on Brute and Tanker toes, and you can give them more Debuff/Control but in the end it'll again step on Tanker toes and not help them in the end game.
More damage, or making them more useful for team play. Preferrably both.
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Yeah, well, that's why there are all these threads. And the critical chance pushes the number higher to increase the gap between Stalker and Tanker damage to make it a significant difference over time, but not every attack criticals at 100% damage and until you get into the higher end of the scale and on a full team they still do less damage than Brutes and Scrappers while using the same attack chain.|
Originally Posted by Jibikao
The word "slightly" is the key problem with Stalker's design. Tanker's survival is at least 2x better than Stalker (I would even say 3x with all the buffs) but Stalker's damage is only "slightly" better than Tanker? We have a design problem.
Stalker's damage needs to be "much higher" than Tanker if we want to look at the Damage VS Survival ratio. The new Bruising effect makes Tanker even more desirable on a large team. I don't play Tankers but their damage has never seen that low to me (definitely higher than Peacebringer Dwarf who I do play). Tanker's damage starts out low due to damage being Secondary but at high level, Tanker's survival goes through the roof (with set bonuses and everything) while doing "respectable" damage. |
One of the reasons that I messed up the Brute damage cap was that I thought it was adjusted to make their capped damage low enough that not just Scrappers could pass it while using the same scale attack, but Stalkers could also.
At old, 850% cap:
Brute: 0.75 * 8.5 = 6.375
Scrapper: 1.125 * 5 * 1.1 (10% critical for Lt+) = 6.1875
Stalker: 1 * 5 * 1.1 (solo critical rate) = 5.5
Tanker: 0.8 * 4 * 1.2 (bruising) = 3.84
At 775%, Scrappers, Stalkers, and Tankers remain the same:
Brute: 0.75 * 7.75 = 5.8125
At 675% - where I incorrectly thought it was set to:
Brute: 0.75 * 6.75 = 5.0625
So when everything is at the cap, the only melee AT that Stalkers outdamage is Tankers when solo, but due to criticals and a higher damage cap it's pretty significant. They don't go past Scrappers until you get to 5-7 teammates within 30' of the Stalker, and require 3+ teammates within 30' to go past a Brute at the cap; this is also ignoring the effects of armor sets that Stalkers don't have access to which provide additional damage.
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Originally Posted by Diesel Punk
Whoops. I thought they had the same Mods. Must be old confused memories.
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From when I started in i7, Stalkers had a 0.9 modifier - but even back then Tankers were 0.8 and Brutes 0.75; they were buffed when VEATs were added and got the scaling critical chance and a 1.0 modifier.
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Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle
it has gone from unconscionable to downright appalling that we have no way of measuring our characters' wetness.
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Originally Posted by Brillig
It's hard to beat the entertainment value of Whackjob Wednesdays.
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I think you're lowballing the difference between Tanker and Stalker survivability. Even ignoring the difference in defensive mods, Tankers have ~55.5% more hp than a Stalker (up to +maxhp% of 33%); when Tankers cap their hp, they have ~120% more hp than a Stalker. So a set like Ice Armor (again, with all other numbers the same) can have over double the survivability based off hp alone.|
Originally Posted by Jibikao
The word "slightly" is the key problem with Stalker's design. Tanker's survival is at least 2x better than Stalker (I would even say 3x with all the buffs) but Stalker's damage is only "slightly" better than Tanker? We have a design problem.
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Start counting things like higher base values, the 90% resist cap (Fire, Elec, WP, Invuln, Shield), and Tankers can push even higher.
Another fun tid-bit, WP's Reconstruction heals ~600hp, so if used every 15s (>+300% rech) it amounts to 40 hp/sec. On a Tanker with +30% maxhp (just HPT) and 5 enemies in range, RttC is worth ~45.6 hp/sec. At the hp cap and saturated, it's worth ~102 hp/sec. That's on top of higher res, ability to hit 90% s/l, and higher maxhp.
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Yikes....|
Originally Posted by Sarrate
I think you're lowballing the difference between Tanker and Stalker survivability. Even ignoring the difference in defensive mods, Tankers have ~55.5% more hp than a Stalker (up to +maxhp% of 33%); when Tankers cap their hp, they have ~120% more hp than a Stalker. So a set like Ice Armor (again, with all other numbers the same) can have over double the survivability based off hp alone.
Start counting things like higher base values, the 90% resist cap (Fire, Elec, WP, Invuln, Shield), and Tankers can push even higher. Another fun tid-bit, WP's Reconstruction heals ~600hp, so if used every 15s (>+300% rech) it amounts to 40 hp/sec. On a Tanker with +30% maxhp (just HPT) and 5 enemies in range, RttC is worth ~45.6 hp/sec. At the hp cap and saturated, it's worth ~102 hp/sec. That's on top of higher res, ability to hit 90% s/l, and higher maxhp. |
Well, like I said, I don't play Tankers and I was assuming that Tanker's survival is only 2-3 times better than Stalker. I guess the survival ratio gets even wider when set bonuses, HP cap and resistance caps are factored in.
Stalker's damage potential needs to be much higher than Tanker's that's all. I do think my Stalker does more damage than most Tankers but any well built Tanker can tank way better than I can.
What's left is to normalize all Assassin Strikes and improve Stalker's old sets (Claw, MA and EM)! You don't need to bring back the missing PbAoE attack. You just need to make the existing ones better! For example, make Slice a WIDER and LONGER cone.
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Also here though youre assuming capping capabilities. The cap DOES make a difference, but even on my Brute or Shields Scrapper unless Im farming, I'm hardly ever near the cap.|
Originally Posted by Siolfir
Yeah, well, that's why there are all these threads. And the critical chance pushes the number higher to increase the gap between Stalker and Tanker damage to make it a significant difference over time, but not every attack criticals at 100% damage and until you get into the higher end of the scale and on a full team they still do less damage than Brutes and Scrappers while using the same attack chain.
One of the reasons that I messed up the Brute damage cap was that I thought it was adjusted to make their capped damage low enough that not just Scrappers could pass it while using the same scale attack, but Stalkers could also. At old, 850% cap: Brute: 0.75 * 8.5 = 6.375 Scrapper: 1.125 * 5 * 1.1 (10% critical for Lt+) = 6.1875 Stalker: 1 * 5 * 1.1 (solo critical rate) = 5.5 Tanker: 0.8 * 4 * 1.2 (bruising) = 3.84 At 775%, Scrappers, Stalkers, and Tankers remain the same: Brute: 0.75 * 7.75 = 5.8125 At 675% - where I incorrectly thought it was set to: Brute: 0.75 * 6.75 = 5.0625 So when everything is at the cap, the only melee AT that Stalkers outdamage is Tankers when solo, but due to criticals and a higher damage cap it's pretty significant. They don't go past Scrappers until you get to 5-7 teammates within 30' of the Stalker, and require 3+ teammates within 30' to go past a Brute at the cap; this is also ignoring the effects of armor sets that Stalkers don't have access to which provide additional damage. Meh, no big deal - I did it upthread with the new Brute damage cap that I thought was nerfed more than it actually was. I just wanted to point it out, like my mistake was pointed out, so that it's a learning experience. From when I started in i7, Stalkers had a 0.9 modifier - but even back then Tankers were 0.8 and Brutes 0.75; they were buffed when VEATs were added and got the scaling critical chance and a 1.0 modifier. |
So instead it looks more like...
Brutes: .75 * 2 (Fury at 50% for solo play, not terribly farfetched and Base enhancements, yea? if I'm doing the math right?) = 1.5
Scrappers: 1.25 x 1.1 = 1.375
Tankers: .8 * 1.2 = .96
Stalkers: 1.00 x 1.1 (Could give them more with Placate granting on demand Crits) = 1.1
I mean, obviously at extreme ends Tanks suffer from the lower damage cap, especially teaming, for the more extreme differences, but they can also make that up with access to some ridiculous control and AoE to help contribute more to team efforts.
I dont want to undersell stalkers, and some of the newer sets theyve been giving to the AT definitely help to bring them into a better spot when it comes to teaming, regardless of what people think.
But at the same time, the margin of difference in capability for this AT compared to how the others operate doesnt isnt enough.
Given the choice between a WP/SS Tank or a KM/Nin Stalker, I'm going to take the tank because even if they dont bring as much damage (marginally different) Bruising isnt just 20% For the tank, its 20% for the TEAM on a single target, boosting every AT around it, as well as solid AoE damage.
More damage versus the higher mob types. Just like I suggested.
I wouldn't mess with AoE's. There are plenty of arc-types that do AoE damage.
Heck, my Plant/kin Controller with Seismic smash can hit for 950 (according to mids, with fulcrum shift), do it safely, while spamming AoE controls and damage (not to mention creepers and fly trap). My stalker is just a little north of 1100 with build-up and being hidden.
That's just plain wrong.
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Yay for embedded quotes! |
Originally Posted by Diesel Punk
Also here though youre assuming capping capabilities. The cap DOES make a difference, but even on my Brute or Shields Scrapper unless Im farming, I'm hardly ever near the cap.
So instead it looks more like... <snip here, add there...> Quote:
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Tankers: 0.8 (AT mod) * 2.0 (100% damage slotting) * 1.2 (Bruising) = 1.92
Now that I found that post, I really should go back and change the numbers I put in it, too. It still has the too-low Brute damage cap.
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Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle
it has gone from unconscionable to downright appalling that we have no way of measuring our characters' wetness.
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Originally Posted by Brillig
It's hard to beat the entertainment value of Whackjob Wednesdays.
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Perhaps the problem isn't with stalkers so much as it is that there aren't many instances in game where one can really leverage the unique abilities of stalkers. Off-hand, I can't think of a situation in game where hide, assassin strike, and placate are a part of THE most useful way to deal with a problem.
It's easier to imagine cases "IRL" where being able to sneak in, take out a single target, then get away unseen would be immensely useful. But in game...not so much.
If there was gameplay like that, stalkers would finally have a niche to fill.
What about...
New Stalker Buffs!
Mod: 1.00 -> 1.2
AS now grants -20% Resistance on the Target struck, in addition to current Debuffs (Can be done so that it only grants it when AS doesnt crit/stalker isnt in hide, gives a Stalker incentive to fire AS while in combat, and helps improve team damage) Permable -Res Debuff
Stalker Crit % Damage boosted from 100% to 200%
New math!
1.2(Mod) x 1.2(New Crit Damage) x 1.2(-Res) x 2.0 (100% Damage slotting) = 3.456, which..is actually a bit higher than expected, though that doesnt quite factor in AS hurting DPS and not being applied to every single target either. Nor do all these changes have to happen.
Or, this looks better and keeps in flavor:
1.00 (Current Mod) x 2 (100% Damage Slotting) x 1.2 (-Res Applied from AS on hard targets, after an AS so as not to boost the AS itself) x 1.2 (New Critical Damage) = 2.88
I'd also go through each of the legacy sets that had their AoE gutted and remove the first tier (Or the Cones for the Sword Sets) and replace them with their respective AoE, and the other 2 remaining attacks have their recharge time and DPA/DPS adjusted to make them viable for low level leveling and making attack chains.
For instance:
Ninja blade would lose Flashing Steel, Gain Lotus Drops, no changes to its Tier 1 or Tier 2 Attacks.
Claws would lose Swipe to gain Spin, Slash and Strike would have their Recharge and Damage adjusted to keep within formula and make them have a smaller cooldown for easier low level fighting.
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Interesting, but I wouldn't change the modifier. Makes stalkers more scrapperish. Instead, half the placate recharge.
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Originally Posted by Diesel Punk
What about...
New Stalker Buffs! Mod: 1.00 -> 1.2 AS now grants -20% Resistance on the Target struck, in addition to current Debuffs (Can be done so that it only grants it when AS doesnt crit/stalker isnt in hide, gives a Stalker incentive to fire AS while in combat, and helps improve team damage) Permable -Res Debuff Stalker Crit % Damage boosted from 100% to 200% New math! 1.2(Mod) x 1.2(New Crit Damage) x 1.2(-Res) = 1.728, which..is actually a bit higher than expected, though that doesnt quite factor in AS hurting DPS and not being applied to every single target either. Nor do all these changes have to happen. I'd also go through each of the legacy sets that had their AoE gutted and remove the first tier (Or the Cones for the Sword Sets) and replace them with their respective AoE, and the other 2 remaining attacks have their recharge time and DPA/DPS adjusted to make them viable for low level leveling and making attack chains. For instance: Ninja blade would lose Flashing Steel, Gain Lotus Drops, no changes to its Tier 1 or Tier 2 Attacks. Claws would lose Swipe to gain Spin, Slash and Strike would have their Recharge and Damage adjusted to keep within formula and make them have a smaller cooldown for easier low level fighting. |
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Thats good, as long as we speed Placates animation and effect up. Let them abuse their crits but dont damage their DPS for them to fire placate. Placate should be a .75 sec animation quick deal to cut right back into fighting. Also make it pulse the effect so its not bugged anymore, with mobs continuing to attack you through it because you have debuff secondary effects.|
Originally Posted by Necromatic
Interesting, but I wouldn't change the modifier. Makes stalkers more scrapperish. Instead, half the placate recharge.
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With a Half recharge, placating every 15 seconds for a powerful Crit instead of waiting once every 30 for an AS is much more useful.
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OMG you are *waving* around double standards! You did it right there in that same run-on sentence!|
Originally Posted by Diesel Punk
I don't have double standards, and I wasnt asking for EM to have burst AoE, I was asking for ANY AoE to help on teams when not everyone does have burst.
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'ANY AoE'? Yeah you say that while holding up EM as an example (as if EM does *any* decent AoE for any AT but Dominators) while protesting you have no AoEs. You have DBs, you have Kinetic, you have spines. Hell, you ask for *any* AoE as if Flashing Steel isn't a retardedly easy 180 degree cone.
This argument really vexes me. I really hope the devs hurry and proliferate Fire Melee, pump out Street Justice and Titan Weapons so these type of posters will finally shut the heck up...
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Because you know, Flashing steel with 130 degree arc and 5 target cap is the same as Lotus Drops with a 10 target Cap and almost double the damage.|
Originally Posted by Leo_G
OMG you are *waving* around double standards! You did it right there in that same run-on sentence!
'ANY AoE'? Yeah you say that while holding up EM as an example (as if EM does *any* decent AoE for any AT but Dominators) while protesting you have no AoEs. You have DBs, you have Kinetic, you have spines. Hell, you ask for *any* AoE as if Flashing Steel isn't a retardedly easy 180 degree cone. This argument really vexes me. I really hope the devs hurry and proliferate Fire Melee, pump out Street Justice and Titan Weapons so these type of posters will finally shut the heck up... |
I'm not saying EM does decent AoE, I said any AoE, I'm not making double Standards, I'm asking for AoE to help the Stalker in its role as a damage dealer in an AoE centric game.
I really hope the devs DO hurry and pump out Street Justice and Titan Weapons so that sets that lack AoE are a minority instead of a majority, but regardless you've just ignored all the other issues that a stalker has as well with team contribution.
But hey, lets flip out and tell people with legitimate points to shut up because you know everything.
Because when cretins use terms like 'gutted', spout about stuff they 'think' they know and expect people to listen to them, they deserve someone to flip out on them...if only so they can open their eyes and see the game for what it is, not their farming fairy tale.
It's the same story when players roll a DM character. You wanna whine about your AoE deficiency? Make a character with AoEs. Simple as that or pick some up in an epic pool (and hey, Super Leap is getting a PBAoE too).
And no, you're not making legitimate points. You're hyperbolizing and whining. Try making your requests in the form of an 'adult' maybe.
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Yeah, but that's more of a commentary on the wrongness of Fulcrum Shift than of Stalkers.
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Originally Posted by Necromatic
Heck, my Plant/kin Controller with Seismic smash can hit for 950 (according to mids, with fulcrum shift), do it safely, while spamming AoE controls and damage (not to mention creepers and fly trap). My stalker is just a little north of 1100 with build-up and being hidden.
That's just plain wrong. |
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Well I cant say that stalkers get better resists or defense than most brutes what I can say is we have zero surviability issues unless the player in front of the keyboard is stupid. I dont know why the same folks scream about hit points over and over like its going to matter in pve. If it can kill you with stalker hp it can still kill you with scrapper hp, thats pretty much how I see it. Its not like they are going to give us Tank hp or something. What I see to be the biggest issue is damage by far. We do not do enough period. Outside of Electric Melee stalkers pretty much got screwed over at every turn on this. A huge fix would be to make AS and/or hide inherrent and give us back the powers we lost for these so that we can be on par with scrappers. In addition to that we truely need some power reordering on some sets. There are so many ways to fix stalkers its just waiting on a dev to have the guts to do it. Lastly the devs need to get rid of that crazy line of thinking that stalkers have aggro issues on teams or that stalkers have survivability problems. I think once we move back from that things might actually get looked at.
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Originally Posted by obscureent
So... I've been hearing chatter that a lot of people don't like stalkers or that stalkers aren't strong enough. Riddle me confused. I'll admit that I haven't read too much into the 3+ page long threads about people complaining about them, but the first one I saw was complaining about hit points.
Now I've made two stalker builds so far, and I must say that the survivability of those two toons is astonishing. They have better Defense/Resistances than most brutes, and dish out more than reasonable amounts of damage. Fact is, I find the Stalkers to be one of the best archetypes in the game. So let the trolling begin and someone tell me what the problem is here. I can post those builds if someone says I'm on crack. Thanks. |
Bump and Grind Bane/SoA
Kenja No Ishi Earth/Empathy Controller
Legendary Sannin Ninja/Pain Mastermind
Entoxicated Ninja/PSN Mastermind
Ninja Ryukenden Kat/WP Scrapper
Hellish Thoughts Fire/PSI Dominator
Thank You Devs for Merits!!!!
When someone says 'burst' the qualifiers are usually two-fold: 1. being fast in as few clicks/little animation time as possible and 2. consistence not being effected by outside sources (i.e. pull that damage out your pocket or keeping it there).
Spin, Dragon's Tail, Whirling Sword/hands...these aren't really 'bursty'. Even with BU, it's not (which claws doesn't have...you'd need 2 stacks of FU *then* the potential might be there). That isn't to say Scraps and Brutes can't, its just 'burst' is usually limited to specific builds/strats/powersets. Using Fiery Embrace + BU and Burn + AoE is very much burst. BU + Shield Charge is too, but Soul Drain on a WP char or Power Siphon with Inv is not.
You either say you have double standards when it comes to specific builds, be they Brute Scrap or Stalk that are capable of ST, AoE burst/DPS, or you'll simply have to accept that certain sets will do ST dmg and other sets will do AoE dmg. You cannot hold up Stalker MA or EM and whine about lack of AoE or burst when there are sets like DB, Spines and Elec melee and how we'll be getting Street Justice with all the AoE intact and most likely the same treatment for every other new set we'll get.