Jeez, I need to stop hitting "save" so fast. 
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Nah it's more that we we're willing to play more than 1 of the 14 archetypes available to us. So enjoy your protest. In the meantime we'll be manipulating time, blasting mobs with darkness and being Strong AND Pretty. And then playing the new Dom sets post I21 along with you |
Originally Posted by DarkCurrent
You know I'm shocked so many of you are willing to settle for 2nd to last place. You're okay with having fewer options. You're okay with not having low hanging fruit (illusion control and dark assault) put on your table, too. You're okay with Time Manipulation being a buff set and not a control set. You're okay with the melee classes getting Titan Weapons and all we get is super secret promises.
It's time to wake up and join the protest rather than following the devs like sheep to pasture. |
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You think it's funny that the Kheldian ATs are given "back burner" priority by the development team while everyone else gets new sets and proliferated sets and has their powers fixed while an entire AT runs around with messed up powers (PB) ?
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Originally Posted by DarkCurrent
You think it's funny that the dominator AT is given 'back burner' priority by the development team while everyone else gets new sets and proliferated sets and has their powers fixed when ported to hero ATs (energy armor) while even older control sets run around with messed up powers (gravity and ice control)?
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@Jay Leon Hart
Kerensky: this has nothing to do with underwear
Zwillinger: I put on my robe and wizard hat...
Synapse: I had to resist starting my last post off with "Yo dawg!"
This thread just rings of waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah I want Illusion Control..
Personally I want them to continue to develop NEW powersets rather than just porting over stuff I have already played.
The hard things I can do--- The impossible just take a little bit longer.
If numbers are so much more important than a teammate who is fun to play with, forget about the game altogether and go play with a calculator instead. -Claws and Effect-
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You are right.... I looked at an old web page that did not up date the amount of power choices per AT.
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Originally Posted by DarkCurrent
Your numbers are off quite a bit for a few of the ATs. If you add what they currently have + new sets + proliferated sets, you get the following numbers come I21 (multiplication shows the total possible combinations for unique builds):
Blaster = 11 x 7 = 77 Controller = 8 x 11 = 88 Defender = 12 x 11 = 132 Scrapper = 12 x 9 = 108 Tanker = 9 x 12 = 108 Brute = 13 x 10 = 130 Corruptor = 11 x 12 = 132 Dominator = 8 x 8 = 64 Mastermind = 6 x 10 = 60 Stalker = 10 x 8 = 80 Hero AT total = 513 Villain AT total = 466 Avg combinations = 98 If you factor in the available APPs/PPPs, the difference is even greater: Blaster = 11 x 7 = 77 x 9 = 693 Controller = 8 x 11 = 88 x 9 = 792 Defender = 12 x 11 = 132 x 8 = 1056 Scrapper = 12 x 9 = 108 x 8 = 864 Tanker = 9 x 12 = 108 x 8 = 864 Brute = 13 x 10 = 130 x 8 = 1040 Corruptor = 11 x 12 = 132 x 8 = 1056 Dominator = 8 x 8 = 64 x 8 = 512 Mastermind = 6 x 10 = 60 x 8 = 480 Stalker = 10 x 8 = 80 x 8 = 640 Hero AT total = 4269 Villain AT total = 3728 Avg combinations = 800 Looking at that, dominators have the second fewest play choices by a significant margin. Compared to their cousin ATs, they have 181 fewer options than blasters and 280 fewer than controllers. Post-I21, if the special news means a new control and a new assault set, they'll have 9 x 9 x 8 = 648 combinations, which will move them up to third fewest (ahead of just MMs and stalkers), but still less than blasters and controllers. However, controllers will presumably get the same control set and have 9 x 11 x 9 = 891 combinations at that point. Blasters MIGHT get another manipulation set out of the deal if the new dominator powersets are NOT darkness (say radiation), which would give them 11 x 8 x 9 = 792 . At any rate, several of you are apparently okay with being next to last for the foreseeable future. You're willing to wait months for increased play options and will settle for being near the bottom even after you get something new. I, for one, am/will not and my protest will continue. Thank you for your support. |
Proton Sentry Peacebringer:lvl 50+++ - Human Build / Triform Build
Quasar Sentry Warshade:lvl 50+- Human Build / Triform Build
Red Katipo Arachnos Soldier:lvl 50+++ - Crab Build / Bane Build
Black Katipo Arachnos Widowlvl 50+++ - Fortunata Build / Night Widow Build
Forget the silly argument about how many combinations each AT has. Forget the arguments about whether it's reasonable to get upset about an AT not getting a proliferation or not. What scares me about this is that it indicates that, at least in the minds of the devs, there must be something wrong about proliferating illusion to doms as-is.
Think about it. This round, they went entirely for low-hanging fruit. Things which could be ported unchanged or nearly so (with the exception of cobbling together a blaster secondary), and that didn't require any art work. Even then they were still willing to do a fair number of power tweaks - poison's tier 9 and splash effects, the EA revamp, stalker /ice's tier 9, and combining night fall and torrent in blaster dark/.
Now, if the devs were planning on proliferating illusion to doms soon, and with at most minor changes, why wouldn't they have done it now? Even if they're planning something special for the AT soon, there'd be no point in holding off on proliferating illusion just so they could do the exact same thing later - one extra set with at most minor changes would not add significantly to the proliferation workload they've already set themselves. So, whatever the devs are planning, it must involve illusion in some way, and it must involve changes to illusion that are substantial enough that they felt they couldn't proliferate it in this round.
That's scary, because while I very much want illusion as a set, I also don't think it needs any changes. And I don't think any changes would be in the direction of buffs. Given the level of changes they were already willing to make in the sets they *did* proliferate, I'm worried that, if they felt the changes they had to make to illusion were *more* drastic than that, then the set might be on the chopping block to be remade into something significantly different.
And if they're going to be making significant changes, I'm afraid those changes would involve phantom army - the signature power and the one that breaks the most rules. I don't think the set is overpowered, but if it was PA would certainly be the thing most would point at. And PA is also the single power I most want from the set - not because I want to bling a dom out for perma-dom/perma-pa and go solo AVs or something silly like that, but simply so that I'd finally be able to play a dom whose primary could actually do something against PToD EBs (yaknow, the ones in solo story arcs) rather than being replaced by a tray full of purples. That outdated design decision needs to be dragged out and shot, and illusion would at least be a step in the right direction.
Best-case scenario is simply that the devs want to replace one of the redundant invisibility powers, they want to replace it with something new rather than something borrowed, and therefore the proliferation is being held off because it'd require art time. In that case I wouldn't have any real complaint, and I certainly hope this is the explanation. I'd still be slightly annoyed that they couldn't have cobbled together a secondary in the meantime, but I'd understand. However, I definitely am worried that this isn't the case.
Worst-case is that the devs don't intend to proliferate illusion at all, or at least anytime soon. I don't think this is the case either (especially since they've said they want to eventually proliferate everything), but I can't rule it out. Obviously, in this case, I'd be pissed (and I think rightfully so).
Almost as bad, though, is what I'm worried is happening - illusion getting drastically changed and PA nerfed in favor of other controls. Especially since that could easily mean that the devs still agree with the whole stupid 'doms should be helpless against PToD EBs' design choice. I hope the devs wouldn't do something so dumb, but that's why this non-proliferation choice is so worrisome.
@MuonNeutrino
Student, Gamer, Altaholic, and future Astronomer.
This is what it means to be a tank!
I want to first say Muon, great post. It is well spelled out and nicely put. That being said- I think you and all the others who want Ill for Doms better get used to the idea that the set will get nerfed when it's ported. And the reason is Phantom Army plain and simple- that power is beyond stupid broken. It overshadows the entire rest of the set the way the old Drain Psyche used to overshadow psi assault. It is ridiculously overpowered to the point of why bring anything else?
I grit my teeth every time I go to join a RSF or a Barraccuda or Kahn and I hear "oh, we need a ill" or "we have a ill/whatever we are set" It's almost to the point of insulting. Why do you think PA was nerfed in the Hami Raids? Tanks were completely sidelined by that power. Let me repeat that- an entire AT was sidelined by 1 power. If that's not the definition of broken I dunno what is!
If they simply made PA able to be hurt/killed it would balance the power I think.
Also I think you are exactly right as to why Illusion wasn't ported this time- The animation gteam was busy. Group Invisibility has to be removed from the Dom Version but there isn't anything easily put in place. I say GI need to be yanked because no other Dom primary has a buff power, why should this one. I suppose they could have replaced it with a recolored Gravity AoE Immob.. but thats a disservice and they obviously don't want to go that route.
"Well, there's going to be some light music and a short note of apology saying, 'The universe ended last week, we're really sorry, we don't know what you're doing here, didn't you get the message?'"- Steve Moffat
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Ya no spirit tree in plant control isn't a team buff or anyth... oh wait.
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Originally Posted by Benchpresser
I want to first say Muon, great post. It is well spelled out and nicely put. That being said- I think you and all the others who want Ill for Doms better get used to the idea that the set will get nerfed when it's ported. And the reason is Phantom Army plain and simple- that power is beyond stupid broken. It overshadows the entire rest of the set the way the old Drain Psyche used to overshadow psi assault. It is ridiculously overpowered to the point of why bring anything else?
I grit my teeth every time I go to join a RSF or a Barraccuda or Kahn and I hear "oh, we need a ill" or "we have a ill/whatever we are set" It's almost to the point of insulting. Why do you think PA was nerfed in the Hami Raids? Tanks were completely sidelined by that power. Let me repeat that- an entire AT was sidelined by 1 power. If that's not the definition of broken I dunno what is! If they simply made PA able to be hurt/killed it would balance the power I think. Also I think you are exactly right as to why Illusion wasn't ported this time- The animation gteam was busy. Group Invisibility has to be removed from the Dom Version but there isn't anything easily put in place. I say GI need to be yanked because no other Dom primary has a buff power, why should this one. I suppose they could have replaced it with a recolored Gravity AoE Immob.. but thats a disservice and they obviously don't want to go that route. |
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So...Spirit Tree isn't a group buff power?
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Originally Posted by Benchpresser
Also I think you are exactly right as to why Illusion wasn't ported this time- The animation gteam was busy. Group Invisibility has to be removed from the Dom Version but there isn't anything easily put in place. I say GI need to be yanked because no other Dom primary has a buff power, why should this one. I suppose they could have replaced it with a recolored Gravity AoE Immob.. but thats a disservice and they obviously don't want to go that route.
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BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection
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Someone beat me to it. |
Originally Posted by Lucky666
Ya no spirit tree in plant control isn't a team buff or anyth... oh wait.
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BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection
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Thanks for being so reasonable in your reply; there's so much vitriol in this thread it's nice to see an actual discussion. As to the topic, while I don't think PA is necessarily *overpowered*, it's definitely the biggest potential trouble spot.|
Originally Posted by Benchpresser
I want to first say Muon, great post. It is well spelled out and nicely put.
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The way I see it, completely independent of the PToD EB issue for doms, I don't think PA is overpowered in regular PvE play, without absurd levels of recharge. That is, going spawn-to-spawn in regular missions, or fighting regular task force/story arc AVs with a team, on a non-IO'd character.
Going spawn-to-spawn, PA suffers due to its uptime (only 50% with recharge enhancement) and recharge (60s up, 60s down means it's not an every-spawn power as it might be with a 30s/30s arrangement), as well as the fact that it has no AoEs and isn't very smart and so has trouble holding the attention of a crowd. It's certainly great for taking alphas and can somewhat divert the attention of a spawn in an ongoing fight, but it's certainly no better than many other controller AoE controls against a regular spawn. If PA is enough to make tanks redundant against normal spawns, so is any other controller primary, and these make up the vast majority of the game's content.
In regular play against normal AVs, it again has issues due to the uptime. On a non-uber team an AV might well outlast its 60s duration, at which point aggro-holding melee characters are no longer upstaged. Two or more illusionists working in concert could keep it up permanently, but in my opinion *two* players cooperating being able to duplicate the effects of one other character in a normal team situation is fine given the game's design goal of not having any particular mandatory team composition. It's not an AT being sidelined by one power - it's an AT's usual role being covered by multiple characters using specific powers, something which is *supposed* to be possible in this game. And if the AV has a spawn or there are ambushes/etc, PA will again have trouble due to having no AoEs and being dumb.
Where PA gets problematic is in special situations and non-standard character builds - the old hami raid and perma-PA IO builds being good examples. I just don't think that these are enough to call it overpowered in general.
For special situations, if an encounter can be trivialized by PA I'd be inclined to call it a problem with the encounter, not PA. Like what happened with old hami, I'd rather see them tweak the encounter instead of nerfing PA. For the most part I think the devs have been doing this pretty consistently with newer content - so much of it demands mobility, intelligence, management of dispersed foes, and coordination, all things that PA is bad at. PA isn't replacing a tanker in keyes, for example, because PA isn't smart enough to lure anti-matter to a terminal. PA isn't replacing tankers on the BAF, since it's not smart enough to avoid getting everyone sequestered.
When it comes to making PA vulnerable, one thing I don't generally see in the suggestions is an answer to the question '*How* does this balance PA?' - that is, what is the specific problem that the change is intended to address, and how does it do so? In my opinion, it would actually make PA somewhat underpowered - it's already no better than a standard AoE control against regular spawns, and hard targets would be able to reduce them to jelly in short order. At that point, what exactly is their role - what are they supposed to be able to do? Currently they only outperform a traditional control exactly in situations where their invincibility is actually relevant - if that's no longer the case, why even bother with them instead of just using spectral terror?
Recall, also, that if PA is overpowered, then they're certainly not going to change it just for doms. In the grand scheme of things controllers are almost certainly more powerful overall thanks to the potency of buff/debuff sets, so if it's broken for doms it's definitely broken for controllers. So, any changes to illusion for doms intended to nerf PA would have to also go to controllers, and then you run into the cottage rule when it comes to modifying an existing set. If PA is changed for dominators in the context of a revamped set (which it would *have* to be, in my opinion, given the power's current status as a cornerstone of the set), then what do they do with controller PA since making identical changes would grossly violate the cottage rule?
If they had to make a change to nerf PA, about the only thing I can think of is to (if the tech exists) make the power unaffected by external recharge buffs - so you can reduce the recharge with enhancements (and so also the alpha slot), but not with hasten/set bonuses/buffs/etc. It's not really a problem when it can't tank something indefinitely. Now, I don't really think it's warranted given the degree of power IOs afford *other* ATs and power set combos, but if you had to do something I'd prefer to at least leave their tanking ability intact for the current design duration.
On a completely different tangent, while I agree they might be holding it back to remove an invisibility power for something else, I don't necessarily think it'd just be because dom's aren't allowed ally buffs, since we already get spirit tree's +regen buff and the recovery boost to allies who stand in static field. It'd be more because two invisibility powers are just redundant.
@MuonNeutrino
Student, Gamer, Altaholic, and future Astronomer.
This is what it means to be a tank!
What the?.. Are you people TRYing to kill the hissy fit and actually have a reasonable discussion, here?!? Where's the fun in THAT?..
Where to find me after the end:
The Secret World - Arcadia - Shinzo
Rift - Faeblight - Bloodspeaker
LotRO - Gladden - Aranelion
STO - Holodeck - @Captain_Thiraas
Obviously, I don't care about NCSoft's forum rules, now.
OK so you people who say they should have given dark control or dark assault, the reason why they did not do this (yet) is because this would probably need some new animations, and the people who would make the new animations are busy.
The next thing is some people have been asking for illusion control, but this would make dominators way too strong, you get your pets up very often and then u just attack them and do so much damage... maybe even more than a scrapper, or brute.
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I only want Illusion Control now because I thought it's just a straight up port. There is really nothing else they need to do for the set. Most of the good powers are just pets. No need for new animation/graphic. |
Originally Posted by Airhammer
This thread just rings of waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah I want Illusion Control..
Personally I want them to continue to develop NEW powersets rather than just porting over stuff I have already played. |
Some think it's going to suck and some think it's going to be too good. We'll never know because the current version is not up to their "standard" obviously.
If it sucks too hard, then troller's version may ask for a buff.
If it's too good, then what does it say about the current Illusion Control like illusion/rad/cold that can already solo AVs? If you adjust one, you may need to adjust the other.
Quite frankly, the dev could have just said Dominator is not getting one this time because Illusion can't be ported but Dom is getting TWO new sets later. All these guessings on when Dom will get Illusion is annoying. I thought it's already ready...
I am excited about Whip Assault as long as it does not have weapon-draw because Dominator switches between primary and secondary powers all the time. If they are going to come up a new "Non-Elemental" Control set, I am pretty sure Controller will get it as well, which isn't exactly a exciting plan cartered for Dominator.
What's left is to normalize all Assassin Strikes and improve Stalker's old sets (Claw, MA and EM)! You don't need to bring back the missing PbAoE attack. You just need to make the existing ones better! For example, make Slice a WIDER and LONGER cone.
Im still waiting for you to take your ball and go home...
The hard things I can do--- The impossible just take a little bit longer.
If numbers are so much more important than a teammate who is fun to play with, forget about the game altogether and go play with a calculator instead. -Claws and Effect-
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If only there were an actual victim instead of an overblown sense of entitlement.|
Originally Posted by DarkCurrent
I love how this thread has turned into a blame the victim situation.
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*Goes back to playing my electric dom which I'd wanted for years but couldn't make until not very long ago*
I'm patiently waiting for the New Dom shiny s!. My guess is that Dom's are going to get customized versions of Illusion and Dark.
May I even dare guess a "Darkness" and "Light" control/assault sets!
Or a control set that would work for "Natural" or "Weapon" wielding characters.
Or the long awaited Magnetic Control!
And here's a way to think of it.."If everything happened now..you'd never have anything to look forward too.."
My level 50 Dominators:
Madame Mindbender 50 Mind/Energy
Fly Agaric 50 Plant/Thorn
Nate Nitro 50 Fire/Psi
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The reason is probably that however many changes there are in the powersets currently being proliferated in I21, those changes were relatively obvious changes that were easy to agree upon. Illusion generates debates even within the player community over the best way to proliferate it, whether it would be too powerful or underpowered for dominators, whether it is even already problematic for controllers as-is, and how much tweaking should be done purely for conceptual purposes to mate the set better with dominators, completely separate from numerical performance.|
Originally Posted by Muon_Neutrino
Forget the silly argument about how many combinations each AT has. Forget the arguments about whether it's reasonable to get upset about an AT not getting a proliferation or not. What scares me about this is that it indicates that, at least in the minds of the devs, there must be something wrong about proliferating illusion to doms as-is.
Think about it. This round, they went entirely for low-hanging fruit. Things which could be ported unchanged or nearly so (with the exception of cobbling together a blaster secondary), and that didn't require any art work. Even then they were still willing to do a fair number of power tweaks - poison's tier 9 and splash effects, the EA revamp, stalker /ice's tier 9, and combining night fall and torrent in blaster dark/. Now, if the devs were planning on proliferating illusion to doms soon, and with at most minor changes, why wouldn't they have done it now? |
I have to believe those same issues are things the devs themselves struggle with, and that means any attempt to proliferate Illusion to Dominators will be a much more complex and drawn out process, because it is so controversial and the devs would want all interested parties to have their fair say, from the powers people to the art people to the senior designers to the QA testers.
They may even be contemplating something similar to Empathy, where villains didn't get Empathy at all because they wanted to use the opportunity to create a completely different set (Pain Domination) to be the anti-Empathy instead. That option is also on the table for Illusion Control, and its a reasonable option to at least consider in the grand scheme of things.
Many things about CoH development become easier to understand when we eliminate the subtle but often very strong inclination to think of Paragon Studios as a hive mind.
[Guide to Defense] [Scrapper Secondaries Comparison] [Archetype Popularity Analysis]
In one little corner of the universe, there's nothing more irritating than a misfile...
(Please support the best webcomic about a cosmic universal realignment by impaired angelic interference resulting in identity crisis angst. Or I release the pigmy water thieves.)
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*Steals M_B's elec dom*|
Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
If only there were an actual victim instead of an overblown sense of entitlement.
*Goes back to playing my electric dom which I'd wanted for years but couldn't make until not very long ago* |
There... NOW we have a genuine victim...
Where to find me after the end:
The Secret World - Arcadia - Shinzo
Rift - Faeblight - Bloodspeaker
LotRO - Gladden - Aranelion
STO - Holodeck - @Captain_Thiraas
Obviously, I don't care about NCSoft's forum rules, now.
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Oooohhh!!! You mean I can finally build that Ball Blas... ummmm... never mind. Not saying that.
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Originally Posted by Airhammer
Im still waiting for you to take your ball and go home...
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Where to find me after the end:
The Secret World - Arcadia - Shinzo
Rift - Faeblight - Bloodspeaker
LotRO - Gladden - Aranelion
STO - Holodeck - @Captain_Thiraas
Obviously, I don't care about NCSoft's forum rules, now.
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The 'anti-empathy' pain dom precedent was more or less what I was thinking when I was worrying that they would remake the set into something new. However, I hadn't thought of the possibility that they simply hadn't decided yet what they wanted to do with it. You're certainly right that it's easy to assume that the devs always already know what they want to do. I know what *I* want them to do, but...
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
They may even be contemplating something similar to Empathy, where villains didn't get Empathy at all because they wanted to use the opportunity to create a completely different set (Pain Domination) to be the anti-Empathy instead. That option is also on the table for Illusion Control, and its a reasonable option to at least consider in the grand scheme of things.
Many things about CoH development become easier to understand when we eliminate the subtle but often very strong inclination to think of Paragon Studios as a hive mind. |
@MuonNeutrino
Student, Gamer, Altaholic, and future Astronomer.
This is what it means to be a tank!
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This is what I don't understand: A lot of powersets would more or less mimic other existing powersets when you get right down to it (especially when you take into consideration "normalization"), so what I tend to do is use "power customization" as a proxy for desired "sets" that aren't released yet. For example, when I want a "water" based set, I typically use fire (if I am a tank, troller or dom) and just turn all the powers a shade of blue. Think hotfeet becomes a pool of drowning or fire imps become sea urchins. Plant control makes a fantastic dark control set if you use your imagination and turn the plant control powers an inky color; it really isn't even that big of a stretch as carrion (from carrion creepers) refers to the carcass of a dead animal. |
Originally Posted by RiverOcean
I'm patiently waiting for the New Dom shiny s!. My guess is that Dom's are going to get customized versions of Illusion and Dark.
May I even dare guess a "Darkness" and "Light" control/assault sets! Or a control set that would work for "Natural" or "Weapon" wielding characters. Or the long awaited Magnetic Control! And here's a way to think of it.."If everything happened now..you'd never have anything to look forward too.." |
Sure, there are certain signature powers (phantom army) that you may not find in other powersets that you desire, but if people just use their imaginations a little bit, there really is a near infinite number of powersets already available to you. Don't let yourself be boxed in by the game.
I can wait! Well until December if it's after that I'm raising Heck! :P
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I could be wrong, but didn't you mean "Psychic Shockwave"? Or did I miss a former overpowered version of Drain? Just curious!
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Originally Posted by Benchpresser
It overshadows the entire rest of the set the way the old Drain Psyche used to overshadow psi assault.
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Again, Titan Weapons for melee archetypes is also coming after i21.