Testing Shards to Incarnate Progression
By
Ahab001,
Posted on: 2011-06-29 21:41 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
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No, Beef_Cake, YOU are factoring your TF runs in when you shouldn't have. You stated that you had ALL those shards and shard components stored up which let you dump them all into threads and craft what you wanted in a time frame you found reasonable. You didn't get them all by soloing, however, as you just stated. That was my point. The truly solo path is NOT viable in any way by any definition that isn't completely irrational.|
Originally Posted by Beef_Cake
We'll now you are referring to a TF which is not meant for solo play. But yet you factor it into your solo path? TFs are meant for team play, they are not meant to be soloed, therefore you are doing something out of the solo path correct?
But I can't answer how many shards I've gotten from TF content. I wouldn't say too many, I only run speed TFs just to get my notice and that's all. I never run TF for shard drops like most do. Running for shard drops on a 8 man team is counter productive imo. No, but 4-6 threads I would agree with, but a random component at the end of the arc? Yes, if you can only get a common or uncommon, removing rares and very rares from that random drop I would agree with. The time it would take to complete 4 mission to get the rewards you are asking for would totally be faster and easier than running a trial and it would defeat the purpose of a trial to being with. |
Nor do I agree that these solo arcs should be locked out of rare and very rare components. The arcs CAN be made difficult and time consuming. They CAN be made to take, on average, an hour versus the trial's 30 minutes. The devs have shown in the past they they can adjust arcs and rewards, see Ouro arcs, and can do it again here.
Be well, people of CoH.
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to convert xp you need 150 threads, 30 for each judgement and interface and 45 for each lore and destiny|
Originally Posted by Chuckles07
Could some of the unreasonable time it takes to unlock a tier 4 solo be because the dev's don't see getting tier 4's solo as a reasonable goal?
I was pretty sure converting a thread to iXP was about 2.5%, so it takes 35ish to unlock a slot, and 60 to slot something in it. That's still a lot of time to unlock that solo, but if we take unlocking the higher tiers off the table as a reasonable goal (not saying it is or isn't, I'm not a Dev, just posting an idea) and go with simply slotting something as a goal. The total time becomes much less, around 10 days(30ish hours) per slot. I'm not arguing one way or the other, just presenting an alternate idea of what could be considered reasonable. |
right now thats also 1 mil per conversion so 150 mil would be needed to do it through pure conversions
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Errrr the only thing he is testing is the alternative advancement through the Incarnate system based on shards and how viable it actually is. His first sentence: "So we've got lots of forum posters going on and on about how the current solo path is good enough for incarnate progress." And that's not really false as I've seen that silly claim posted about during the various discussions on the need for a solo or small teams path. He's disproving that.|
Originally Posted by TonyV
No, because "solo path" to Bill and a few others constantly griping here doesn't mean the same thing that it does to most people. To most people, "playing solo" is something you do sometimes. Maybe it's even something you do most times. It's not something you do all the time, to the exclusion of all else, going to great pains avoiding teaming up with anyone, EVER.
To most people, the shard rewards you get while doing "solo" stuff are there to supplement--NOT supplant--the rewards you get for doing incarnate stuff such as the Incarnate trials and Weekly Strike Targets. Yet that's what this sham of a "test" is based on: the premise that you will never ever run an Incarnate Trial, that you will never ever--and that's the key, literally never ever ever, not one single time over the course of a hundred years--run a trial or strike target. That has absolutely zero to do with how people, even most self-professed soloers, even Bill, since I know for a fact that he has run task forces, actually play the game. I know it, you know it, the devs know it. It's the elephant in Bill's room that he refuses to acknowledge or talk about, and the straw man that he keeps building around it is designed specifically to hide the fact that it's a completely unrealistic expectation. You absolutely, positively do not make game design decisions around such contrived shtuff. Will Bill's request eventually be implemented? Maybe. Hell, perhaps even probably, I don't know. But if so, I can guarantee you that it sure won't be because of stuff like this so-called "test." |
I think you have some issues.
Blazara Aura LVL 50 Fire/Psi Dom (with 125% recharge)
Flameboxer Aura LVL 50 SS/Fire Brute
Ice 'Em Aura LVL 50 Ice Tank
Darq Widow Fortune LVL 50 Fortunata (200% rech/Night Widow 192.5% rech)--thanks issue 19!
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I think you could set them up like TFs with challenge settings and the harder settings would offer the chance of a VR/R drop. This way a player is putting in a certain amount of effort and skill into it.
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Originally Posted by Beef_Cake
No, but 4-6 threads I would agree with, but a random component at the end of the arc? Yes, if you can only get a common or uncommon, removing rares and very rares from that random drop I would agree with.
The time it would take to complete 4 mission to get the rewards you are asking for would totally be faster and easier than running a trial and it would defeat the purpose of a trial to being with. |
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Well he does tend to do the thing you're not supposed to do according to the dude playing the dude disguised as another dude.
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Originally Posted by Aura_Familia
I think you have some issues.
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You have a terrible memory. You most certainly did cry doom. your posts during the AE exploit debacle made it seem like the game would end if the devs didn't come out and outright ban anyone who powerleveled via AE.|
Originally Posted by TonyV
The two are related, but there's not a direct cause/effect relationship there. Here's what it boils down to: I really like this game. That's it, it's that simple.
Because I really like this game, I pay for a service that I willingly offer to other fans. Make no mistake: Running the Paragon Wiki and Titan Network actually costs me money and an extraordinary amount of time. Thanks to some generous donations over the years, it's not all out-of-pocket, thank goodness, but if you think I'm making money off of the sites, you're mistaken. Also, I'm genuinely impressed by all that the developers have accomplished over the years. Having been in development in the past, I know it's a VERY hard job. Meeting the deadlines that they do, having as stable a product as they have, and seeing that most of them actually still have hair boggles my mind. I've met some of them in person, and they're really cool people who love their job. All of that, especially paired with the fact that I really like this game, means that yeah, when I see baseless attacks against them, I'm happy to defend the devs. Maybe you're under the false impression that I've never criticized the developers. Maybe you missed my threads back when they gimped the e-mail system. Maybe you missed all of my worries when Issue 9 was released that having a tradeable loot system was an open invitation to RMTers to bug everyone. (And boy, did they ever.) Maybe you missed a few threads way back when CoV launched of me complaining that I thought it was silly that villains were level-capped at 40. I seriously doubt you had access to the Lighthouse Lounge or City Scoop forums. *twitch... *twitch... You probably missed how I repeatedly blasted the decision to make these permanent costume codes only available to people who either have lots of money or who are lucky enough to be geographically close to a convention or meet-and-greet. Maybe you weren't in the beta forums and you missed the heated discussions I had regarding the decision to not give so-called "paladins" who never change their alignment some kind of award for staying true to their morals, something I still think they screwed up and that I'm not happy about. I think it was a hideous mistake to not follow through on their threats to nuke AE exploiters more than they did. Of course, during all of my criticisms, I never cried DOOOOM!!! (at least, not that I can remember). I never demanded that the devs accommodate my will. I never conducted sham "tests" to support my position. I never threatened to quit the game. I've consistently criticized with the understanding that I'm never going to be 100% happy with the game, and that's okay. 97% is pretty damn amazing. Does make me a suck-up brown noser?  |
The sentence right before that still reflects that silly stance.
Blazara Aura LVL 50 Fire/Psi Dom (with 125% recharge)
Flameboxer Aura LVL 50 SS/Fire Brute
Ice 'Em Aura LVL 50 Ice Tank
Darq Widow Fortune LVL 50 Fortunata (200% rech/Night Widow 192.5% rech)--thanks issue 19!
Thanks for starting this thread, Bill. Some good data - and as others have noted, x8 isn't normal either, so this is the more quick solo method.
I wish I could say I'm surprised by the crap being thrown at Bill.
Edit - after being on my first Keyes, I appreciate the earlier 2 trials much more.
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From my memory Bill and TonyV have had issues in the past so that might be coloring this discussion.|
Originally Posted by Jetpack
Thanks for starting this thread, Bill. Some good data - and as others have noted, x8 isn't normal either, so this is the more quick solo method.
I would I could say I'm surprised by the crap being thrown at Bill. Edit - after being on my first Keyes, I appreciate the earlier 2 trials much more. |
I think you can guess my views on some of TonyV's more extreme view points.
Blazara Aura LVL 50 Fire/Psi Dom (with 125% recharge)
Flameboxer Aura LVL 50 SS/Fire Brute
Ice 'Em Aura LVL 50 Ice Tank
Darq Widow Fortune LVL 50 Fortunata (200% rech/Night Widow 192.5% rech)--thanks issue 19!
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It should unless I missed something. I actually saw people recruiting for an Apex TF and they said they only wanted people who had their alpha slotted. I find it one of the more odd mechanics in the game. Unlock your alpha and do iTrials until sick of them with no penalty, but do Apex, or Tin Mage without your alpha slotted and well, you get to be -4 for those. Not that I do a lot of the Incarnate stuff anyway, but I have yet to do a Tin Mage TF and I don't recall seeing one being formed since I started to do the iTrials.|
Originally Posted by Bill Z Bubba
That said, I find those completion bonuses pretty dang pathetic for content that punishes you if you don't have the alpha incarnate ability slotted. (Or do they still do that?)
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EDIT: Clarifying here, I understand you can do the iTrials without even unlocking your alpha, which makes the Tin Mage and Apex TFs all the more odd. What I meant was there is not a penalty while doing the arc to unlock your alpha for obvious reasons.
So basically what I see here is people crying because they are not getting the same amount of reward that we get from running teams of 24? You are in the wrong game. Way to make a lame attempt to bring teaming in an MMO (social based multi player game) to a grinding halt. The idea of the game is to try and influence teaming not stop it.
And honestly if you are soloing all the time what in the heck do you really need incarnate powers for anyhow?
The simple answer has been in front of your faces the whole time, if you don't like to team I have one word for you "X-BOX"
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Was I replying to you in that quote?|
Originally Posted by Bill Z Bubba
Did I cry doom in this thread, Tony? Nope. Did I ask for the removal of the incarnate trials? Nope. In other threads I actually expressed my happiness that the devs added content that many have asked for over the years. I expressed my happiness at their happiness that they finally got it.
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Originally Posted by Bill Z Bubba
But you felt the need to come in guns blazing to attack me, personally, because of your idiotic belief that everyone should play the game just like you. I'm not expecting an apology since this is completely normal behavior for you.
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You know what I find really sad? How you keep trying to frame this as if I have some weird, deviant play style. I've got some news for you, bub. Most people do play the game just like me, and they're giddy with delight at all of the new shinies that we're getting. YOU are the one asking--no, DEMANDING--changes to the game based on a weird, abnormal, totally bogus way of playing that you have repeatedly admitted that you don't even play.
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Originally Posted by Bill Z Bubba
You must then agree that the existing solo path is not in any way viable. The problem is that you're perfectly fine with this fact. You don't care about anyone else's playstyles or desires unless they perfectly coincide with yours.
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YOUR "TEST" IS MEANINGLESS. That doesn't mean that the solo path is or isn't viable. That doesn't means I do or don't like Incarnate trials. That doesn't mean that I do or don't want a solo path. That doesn't mean that soloers are or are not left out in the cold. That doesn't mean that the devs do or don't hate you.
All it means--the ONLY thing we can infer from this "test"--is that you have no clue how to conduct a meaningful test. Any thought or sentence formed from the premise that "[Based on this,] you..." immediately becomes invalid. Not true, not false. Invalid. Undefined. Meaningless. Divided by zero.
We've been saving Paragon City for eight and a half years. It's time to do it one more time.
(If you love this game as much as I do, please read that post.)
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I think I can!
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Originally Posted by Aura_Familia
From my memory Bill and TonyV have had issues in the past so that might be coloring this discussion.
I think you can guess my views on some of TonyV's more extreme view points. |
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*gets popcorn*
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Originally Posted by TonyV
*rage speak sniped* |
Blazara Aura LVL 50 Fire/Psi Dom (with 125% recharge)
Flameboxer Aura LVL 50 SS/Fire Brute
Ice 'Em Aura LVL 50 Ice Tank
Darq Widow Fortune LVL 50 Fortunata (200% rech/Night Widow 192.5% rech)--thanks issue 19!
Bases off of Bills’ trade in idea
Let the different types or merits be able to be traded for Incarnate Components.
Vanguard Merits: 500 per Common Component
A couple of Mothership raids and you could easily get a T1.
Reward Merits: 120 per Uncommon Component.
I chose 120 as I seem to recall a LotG + recharge being about that. So a few days of Weekly Strike forces and you could get enough Uncommon Components
Hero/Villain Merits: 5 or 10 per Rare
Between 10 to 20 days of 0x1 Tip missions yielding a chosen Rare seems reasonable to me.
Now, what does this do for the Solo minded person? Does it give a path to the Incarnates that does not seem to far out of whack?
If you did a combo of trials and WTF, and solo, you would have an easier time all around.
Very Rare Components, Astral Merits and Empyrean Merits would be “gated”, but that seems a fair trade off, for the ability to have choice in how and what a player could do to get most of the Incarnate powers.
How is this for an idea?
210 50s and still counting!
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If you want to compare shard acquisition rates, maybe you should do less (try zero) TFs and do more solo missions. Then, you might find that your shard drop rates aren't as great as you think they are.|
Originally Posted by Beef_Cake
Bill, I mentioned in another thread I had my Dominator who has never touched a trial and yet I have my 4 slots unlocked and slotted with Incarnate Abilities in 3 of them. I've been building up salvage since the release of Issue 19 back in November last year, it's now been almost 7 months since you could earn shards. So I've been stock piling them since then even after I slotted my T4 Alpha. I've been stock piling Notice of the Wells. At the time I couldn't use them, but now I can. You can break them down into 40 threads each. I have 22 of them saved, do the math it adds up pretty fast
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For the record, I do more Task Forces than I do Trials. But, I don't do Task Forces very often.
There I was between a rock and a hard place. Then I thought, "What am I doing on this side of the rock?"
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Did you bother to read anything?|
Originally Posted by Blacier
So basically what I see here is people crying because they are not getting the same amount of reward that we get from running teams of 24?
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Originally Posted by Blacier
You are in the wrong game. Way to make a lame attempt to bring teaming in an MMO (social based multi player game) to a grinding halt. The idea of the game is to try and influence teaming not stop it.
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Originally Posted by Blacier
And honestly if you are soloing all the time what in the heck do you really need incarnate powers for anyhow?
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Seriously, why? Why does being on a team suddenly make your advancement that much more valid?
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Originally Posted by Blacier
The simple answer has been in front of your faces the whole time, if you don't like to team I have one word for you "X-BOX"
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Ya know, this thread was peaceful and fine before you posted. I hope the mods recognize this as well.
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Originally Posted by TonyV
Was I replying to you in that quote?
I came in guns blazing because you put forth an idiotic contrived "test" based on playing the game in a way that no one--admittedly not even you--plays and made a demand that the developers changed the game based on it. It has little to do with how I play. Like I said, I don't even necessarily disagree with what you're petitioning for. You know what I find really sad? How you keep trying to frame this as if I have some weird, deviant play style. I've got some news for you, bub. Most people do play the game just like me, and they're giddy with delight at all of the new shinies that we're getting. YOU are the one asking--no, DEMANDING--changes to the game based on a weird, abnormal, totally bogus way of playing that you have repeatedly admitted that you don't even play. Do you even know what a straw man is? YOUR "TEST" IS MEANINGLESS. That doesn't mean that the solo path is or isn't viable. That doesn't means I do or don't like Incarnate trials. That doesn't mean that I do or don't want a solo path. That doesn't mean that soloers are or are not left out in the cold. That doesn't mean that the devs do or don't hate you. All it means--the ONLY thing we can infer from this "test"--is that you have no clue how to conduct a meaningful test. Any thought or sentence formed from the premise that "[Based on this,] you..." immediately becomes invalid. Not true, not false. Invalid. Undefined. Meaningless. Divided by zero. |
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So you keep stating while failing to back up the statement. I have already explained in detail, repeatedly, WHY I chose to play in a way that I don't wish to. You chose to ignore it and instead continue to attack me rather than the facts because as usual, you have nothing else to work with.|
Do you even know what a straw man is? YOUR "TEST" IS MEANINGLESS. That doesn't mean that the solo path is or isn't viable. That doesn't means I do or don't like Incarnate trials. That doesn't mean that I do or don't want a solo path. That doesn't mean that soloers are or are not left out in the cold. That doesn't mean that the devs do or don't hate you. All it means--the ONLY thing we can infer from this "test"--is that you have no clue how to conduct a meaningful test. Any thought or sentence formed from the premise that "[Based on this,] you..." immediately becomes invalid. Not true, not false. Invalid. Undefined. Meaningless. Divided by zero. |
The fact is that there is no viable solo incarnate path. You know this to be true. You don't care. We get that.
Are your bloomers on too tight?
Be well, people of CoH.
Speaking personally: I would like an addition to the system where a Notice of the Well + 5 shards could be converted to any Rare incarnate drop, and a Favor of the Well + 10 shards could be converted to Very Rare. That would solve 9/10ths of the issue I have with this system for me.
I don't hate the incarnate trials. I hate the trials as a leveling treadmill. I would feel exactly the same way if the only way to advance was soloing, bank missions, radios, contacts, giant monsters, or AVs.
I liked the Alpha slot system. I actually outfitted a character with 2 alphas instead of continue with the incarnate stuff because I liked it so much more.
None of that has anything to do with Bill's experiment. I'm only posting it because some people keep lumping everyone who has issues with the incarnate reward structure into one big pile of people who supposedly "want the rewards instantly." I have no issue with people who like the incarnate trials, because I like them myself. But I am much more keen to favor the so-called "soloists" in this debate because they are on the side of choice.
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heh. I'm glad I'm not the only one who noticed that stupid stance.|
Originally Posted by Clouded
So you want subscribers to quit the game? Cutting off your nose to spit your face, eh?
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I'm sure the devs would looooooove it if the number of folks who are told to shut up and quit daily if they didn't' like something actually did.
Thankfully the devs have more sense than a lot of posters (myself included) and actually don't shake like wall flowers at not totally positive criticism.
AKA: See the new revamped low level content coming in Issue 21. Unlike some players, the devs do listen.
Blazara Aura LVL 50 Fire/Psi Dom (with 125% recharge)
Flameboxer Aura LVL 50 SS/Fire Brute
Ice 'Em Aura LVL 50 Ice Tank
Darq Widow Fortune LVL 50 Fortunata (200% rech/Night Widow 192.5% rech)--thanks issue 19!
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*munches popcorn, awaits next act*
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Originally Posted by Bill Z Bubba
So you keep stating while failing to back up the statement. I have already explained in detail, repeatedly, WHY I chose to play in a way that I don't wish to. You chose to ignore it and instead continue to attack me rather than the facts because as usual, you have nothing else to work with.
The fact is that there is no viable solo incarnate path. You know this to be true. You don't care. We get that. Are your bloomers on too tight? |
Blazara Aura LVL 50 Fire/Psi Dom (with 125% recharge)
Flameboxer Aura LVL 50 SS/Fire Brute
Ice 'Em Aura LVL 50 Ice Tank
Darq Widow Fortune LVL 50 Fortunata (200% rech/Night Widow 192.5% rech)--thanks issue 19!
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Fixed.|
Originally Posted by Blacier
And honestly if you are teaming all the time what in the heck do you really need incarnate powers for anyhow?
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Originally Posted by Blacier
The simple answer has been in front of your faces the whole time, if you don't like to team I have one word for you "X-BOX"
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Originally Posted by TonyV
I came in guns blazing because you put forth an idiotic contrived "test" based on playing the game in a way that no one--admittedly not even you--plays and made a demand that the developers changed the game based on it.
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TonyV I am disappointed in your behavior in this thread. I behave like this because I feel the need to jump around going "look at me!" from time to time. What possible reason could you have to behave like this though?
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I'm not commenting on Bill's testing methodology but 3 shards an hour seems a bit high to me when i'm running x8 team-optional missions, maybe he just got lucky (or i unlucky) or his sample of 2 hours is too short.|
Originally Posted by TonyV
YOUR "TEST" IS MEANINGLESS. That doesn't mean that the solo path is or isn't viable. That doesn't means I do or don't like Incarnate trials. That doesn't mean that I do or don't want a solo path. That doesn't mean that soloers are or are not left out in the cold. That doesn't mean that the devs do or don't hate you.
All it means--the ONLY thing we can infer from this "test"--is that you have no clue how to conduct a meaningful test. Any thought or sentence formed from the premise that "[Based on this,] you..." immediately becomes invalid. Not true, not false. Invalid. Undefined. Meaningless. Divided by zero. |
For those saying x8 is not a diff setting playable by the average player, Aracanaville 4 months ago did a test on shard drops with x2 diff setting which could still apply unless the devs change the drop rate since then.
Could some of the unreasonable time it takes to unlock a tier 4 solo be because the dev's don't see getting tier 4's solo as a reasonable goal?
I was pretty sure converting a thread to iXP was about 2.5%, so it takes 35ish to unlock a slot, and 60 to slot something in it. That's still a lot of time to unlock that solo, but if we take unlocking the higher tiers off the table as a reasonable goal (not saying it is or isn't, I'm not a Dev, just posting an idea) and go with simply slotting something as a goal.
The total time becomes much less, around 10 days(30ish hours) per slot.
I'm not arguing one way or the other, just presenting an alternate idea of what could be considered reasonable.