Testing Shards to Incarnate Progression
By
Ahab001,
Posted on: 2011-06-29 21:41 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
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I suppose that's how a lot of people do it. But I don't think the devs want us to play that way. You're "supposed" to use the trials to see how other people play, and use that as a basis for inviting them to supergroups, or private global channels that have superseded supergroups (because of hero/villain teaming).|
Originally Posted by MrCaptainMan
And when it's done, it's 'gj all tx for team' and everyone logs out.
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People in those supergroups and private channels do natter on after the trial is over. They help each other out with missions and set up things like TFs, hami and mothership raids, etc. You might not have discussions with players in the game, but you obviously have a sense of community with players in the forums. A lot of people don't even know about the forums, and just play the game. The devs want to get them engaged with each other in the game, to help keep players around longer.
I'm not saying you're doing it wrong. I'm saying that I think the devs believe things should work a certain way, and arrange things to encourage that model. It's pretty obvious what they want us to do, because they reward us so much more handsomely when we do certain things. The profusion of rewards for trials and WSTs indicates they really, really want us to do them.
But a lot of people who game aren't really into making social groups. They're used to playing single-player games, and don't mind spending a lot of time online alone. The problem is that if the devs were to make an easy solo track for getting these rewards, everyone would take that track because it will almost certainly be more efficient than running trials because of their immense startup overhead.
Personally, I don't like doing trials because getting a group of 16-24 players together has that overhead (often 30-40 minutes on some servers at some times of the day), and with that many players server performance during the trial is often very poor.
I used to dislike doing TFs for similar reasons, but since I was invited to a private channel where people run a lot of TFs/SFs, running TFs is basically as painless as running regular missions, only you get a big pile of reward merits or incarnate salvage.
To paraphrase the big-headed aliens in The Cage: "Wrong playing is punishable. Right playing will be as quickly rewarded."
It's didactic and overbearing, I agree. But it really is more fun to have a bunch of people who are willing to help you out at any juncture.
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I wouldn't WANT to be in a SG that only invited me because they liked the way I played on a PUG. I join SGs who I get along with the people and they enjoy my company. I do try and cut up a bit in League while we are forming because staring at the screen waiting to be asked if I'm ready is the dullest damn thing in the game, but most of the time I'm talking to myself there.|
Originally Posted by Rodion
I suppose that's how a lot of people do it. But I don't think the devs want us to play that way. You're "supposed" to use the trials to see how other people play, and use that as a basis for inviting them to supergroups, or private global channels that have superseded supergroups (because of hero/villain teaming).
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Also where are you getting all this "The devs intend for us to do X" from? Did they say that somewhere or are you just letting your flatulence speak for you?
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But I DO have discussions with playets in the game. When I solo I'm constantly chatting in The channels I'm in. ironically, the one time I CAN'T be sociable with my imgame friends is on a trial, because there's no time to stop and smell the roses. |
Originally Posted by Rodion
I suppose that's how a lot of people do it. But I don't think the devs want us to play that way. You're "supposed" to use the trials to see how other people play, and use that as a basis for inviting them to supergroups, or private global channels that have superseded supergroups (because of hero/villain teaming).
People in those supergroups and private channels do natter on after the trial is over. They help each other out with missions and set up things like TFs, hami and mothership raids, etc. You might not have discussions with players in the game, but you obviously have a sense of community with players in the forums. |
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A lot of people don't even know about the forums, and just play the game. The devs want to get them engaged with each other in the game, to help keep players around longer. I'm not saying you're doing it wrong. I'm saying that I think the devs believe things should work a certain way, and arrange things to encourage that model. It's pretty obvious what they want us to do, because they reward us so much more handsomely when we do certain things. The profusion of rewards for trials and WSTs indicates they really, really want us to do them. But a lot of people who game aren't really into making social groups. They're used to playing single-player games, and don't mind spending a lot of time online alone. The problem is that if the devs were to make an easy solo track for getting these rewards, everyone would take that track because it will almost certainly be more efficient than running trials because of their immense startup overhead. Personally, I don't like doing trials because getting a group of 16-24 players together has that overhead (often 30-40 minutes on some servers at some times of the day), and with that many players server performance during the trial is often very poor. I used to dislike doing TFs for similar reasons, but since I was invited to a private channel where people run a lot of TFs/SFs, running TFs is basically as painless as running regular missions, only you get a big pile of reward merits or incarnate salvage. To paraphrase the big-headed aliens in The Cage: "Wrong playing is punishable. Right playing will be as quickly rewarded." It's didactic and overbearing, I agree. But it really is more fun to have a bunch of people who are willing to help you out at any juncture. |
It's my belief that the Devs introduced this trial system not because they want us to socialise or because they think it'll foster community formation, but simply because they see from WoW that what to me is boring repetitive whack-a-mole content will be embraced by a large proportion of players who play without the need for a narrative to maintain their interest, and they can also perhaps leech some WoW players with 'CoH has got endgame raiding just like WoW now.'
The sense I get from the trials is that they make a sense of imagination irrelevant. The NPCs and events are reduced to mechanics to be overcome and QTEs to be ticked off. I've done the BAF quite a few times now, and I still don't really know what the plot is.
Eco
It
MArcs:
The Echo, Arc ID 1688 (5mish, easy, drama)
The Audition, Arc ID 221240 (6 mish, complex mech, comedy)
Storming Citadel, Arc ID 379488 (lowbie, 1mish, 10-min timed)
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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
[The Incarnate System is] Jack Emmert all over again, only this time it's not "1 hero = 3 white minions" it's "1 hero = 3 white rocks."
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Unfortunately, I don't think there's any rationale for encouraging us to do raids beyond: 'other MMOs have a raid based endgame, so should we.'
@Dante EU - Union Roleplayer and Altisis Victim
The Militia: Union RP Supergroup - www.themilitia.org.uk
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That's weird, we usually have a ton of chatter (IC and OOC) in league chat.
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Originally Posted by Twisted Toon
Agreed. I have yet to talk to anyone, but the person forming the league for a trial, while "participating" in the trial "experience".*
*the trial experience includes the wait for the trial to start after the league is formed. |
"Men strunt �r strunt och snus �r snus
om ock i gyllne dosor.
Och rosor i ett sprucket krus
�r st�ndigt alltid rosor."
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I agree with this post so much I can't think of anything meaningful to add. This is, simply, truth.
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Originally Posted by MrCaptainMan
It's my experience that being forced to do the BAF over and over to get my Incarnate gear does nothing to encourage me to socialise with the other people I team with.
I go to pocket D and say 'Blaster lf BAF' and wait for an invite. I'm surrounded by strangers, and my mood is tbh impatient and grumpy. I want to get it over with, so all i'm doing is scanning the broadcast for 'BAF forming pst' and the like. I'm certainly not there to chat or make friends. When the trial starts, stopping to have a natter is the last thing anyone does. And when it's done, it's 'gj all tx for team' and everyone logs out. it's my experience that SOLOING encourages me to be more sociable because it allows me the time and opportunity to pasue whenever i want and chat in the various channels I'm a member of. Sociability in an MMO isn't having your avatar stood next to another avatar firing off powers. It's communicating with other people. And it's my experience that PuG trials discourage all but the most basic specific goal-driven communication, ie 'team A to South' or 'To me' and suchlike. Eco. |
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That I do, well, the very first part. It often ends up with 2 stars or 1 star (I rank 1 lowest 5 highest) with player notes such as "yells in Lambda", "insists on using choke points", "cries too much", "is being generally annoying" and so on.| You're "supposed" to use the trials to see how other people play, and use that as a basis for inviting them to supergroups, or private global channels that have superseded supergroups (because of hero/villain teaming). |
In a team of 8 you'll end up with maybe one jerk. In a league of 16+ you're much more likely to end up with multiple jerks, and whereas they'd likely shut up if they were alone, once there's two or more they validate each other and proceed to be annoying during the whole thing.
In trials, I have met maybe six or seven players I'd like to play with again, whereas I've shitlisted ten times as much people.
Bottomline, I'm socializing less than ever since I20. Whereas with I19 I used to TF a lot with friends, we filled the gap with PUG people and I explained to them how it worked and generally cared about them having a good experience, now I just trial without saying a word and care about my teammates so little they may as well be reality show participants.
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| There's a common perception that City of Heroes is "dead" because there aren't hordes of people roaming the streets hacking wolves to pieces. |
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If you go in with the bias that you're "forced" to do anything, it's going to affect how you feel about the behavior and how you engage in it. You already come in feeling anxious and angry, it's no doubt you don't feel very interested in social behavior.|
Originally Posted by MrCaptainMan
It's my experience that being forced to do the BAF over and over to get my Incarnate gear does nothing to encourage me to socialise with the other people I team with.
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| I go to pocket D and say 'Blaster lf BAF' and wait for an invite. I'm surrounded by strangers, and my mood is tbh impatient and grumpy. I want to get it over with, so all i'm doing is scanning the broadcast for 'BAF forming pst' and the like. I'm certainly not there to chat or make friends. |
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| When the trial starts, stopping to have a natter is the last thing anyone does. |
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| it's my experience that SOLOING encourages me to be more sociable because it allows me the time and opportunity to pasue whenever i want and chat in the various channels I'm a member of. |
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
I chat quite a bit on the Trials too - multi-tasking isn't that hard 
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
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Originally Posted by EvilGeko
If you go in with the bias that you're "forced" to do anything, it's going to affect how you feel about the behavior and how you engage in it. You already come in feeling anxious and angry, it's no doubt you don't feel very interested in social behavior.
Now before anyone says, I was assuming anything above, the poster confirms it right here. How do you know? I'll have you know I often chat with people during the trial, after, and often wait around to see if something else is going on unless I need a break or have somewhere to be. You emphasized the wrong word here. It is your experience. Not everyone else. |
Yes, you're absolutely right, my experience is of course coloured by my preconceptions etc, I'm not trying to say that the trial makes everyone act/react like that. I intentionally used 'it's my experience' a few times in my post because I'm very aware of the fact thst different folks see it differently.
I was just trying to rebut the idea that 'soloers are antisocial types who might as well be playing a single-player game' that is sometimes held by the trial-supporters (i don't mean you), and that for some, the rapid pace of the trials, coupled with not using vent or being able to type quickly and fight at the same time, makes social interaction in them difficult, stressful and a bit moot.
Eco
MArcs:
The Echo, Arc ID 1688 (5mish, easy, drama)
The Audition, Arc ID 221240 (6 mish, complex mech, comedy)
Storming Citadel, Arc ID 379488 (lowbie, 1mish, 10-min timed)
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
[The Incarnate System is] Jack Emmert all over again, only this time it's not "1 hero = 3 white minions" it's "1 hero = 3 white rocks."
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Originally Posted by MrCaptainMan
Yes, you're absolutely right, my experience is of course coloured by my preconceptions etc, I'm not trying to say that the trial makes everyone act/react like that. I intentionally used 'it's my experience' a few times in my post because I'm very aware of the fact thst different folks see it differently.
I was just trying to rebut the idea that 'soloers are antisocial types who might as well be playing a single-player game' that is sometimes held by the trial-supporters (i don't mean you), and that for some, the rapid pace of the trials, coupled with not using vent or being able to type quickly and fight at the same time, makes social interaction in them difficult, stressful and a bit moot. Eco |
When I was still playing trials, I didn't socialize much mainly because I was rarely at the keyboard. I guess you could say the trials aided my socialization by encouraging me to seek out other games with raids/trials/rifts though. Playing through this content really is optional. Extremely optional, when you consider that you could do more raids that are better balanced in games with less dated graphics if huge team events are really your shtick.
To preface my post, I run trials on a daily bases and participate in almost everything this game has to offer. I solo, team, trial, TF, RP, Hamidon, Market, Invent, Farm, Play Content and I PvP. What I say below is how I feel about the current conversion system, which is the heart of the solo path issues in my opinion.
The solo path is far to tedious, now I am not saying its needs to be as lucrative as the Trial Path, but people do need to be able to see the light at the end of the tunnel so to speak. I believe the disparity between the shard and thread system is too large. This is what is currently leading to such a major issue on the soloing path. Let me explain what I am getting at.
If I were to utilize the system as it is, it takes 4 shards to make a common component for an Alpha. It takes 20 threads to make a Common Component. So what we are really seeing is that 5 threads are worth 1 shard. Yet we have a conversion system that says once every 20 hours 10 shards are worth 10 threads and at any other time 10 shards are worth 5 threads. Now looking at this logically this makes no sense. However to add another wrinkle, an Astral merit is worth 4 Threads when broken down, or 1 shard if used thu the vendors in Ouro. To add some more evidence to this, the result of breaking down 1 common shard component is 1 shard and the result of breaking down 1 common thread component is 4 threads. To add to that on the uncommon scale, The Shards recovered on a breakdown are 2 to 3, while on the threads for an uncommon breakdown are 8 to 10. So wait, shards are 4 times as valuable as threads but to directly convert them to threads its a 1 to 1 ratio every 20 hours or a .5 to 1 ratio any other time. Maybe I am missing something but I can not see it.
The biggest problem with the solo path in my opinion is the conversion. Now I am not saying that 10 shards should be worth 40 threads, however I do feel their is room for improvement.
I think I have like 80-something shards now collecting dust that just accumulated while running ITFs here and there. Sorry I have no input as to how many ITFs were run to get those but it was over the span of 5 weeks. I agree, replacing shards with threads would be better, and probably get the other TFs/SFs like ITF and LGTF "LFM!" going more frequently.
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There are conversations going on in the league chat. I just don't participate. When I'm with my usual team, I do chat quite often. |
Originally Posted by Arilou
That's weird, we usually have a ton of chatter (IC and OOC) in league chat.
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I am not a social butterfly. I am fully content to do things by myself or with a small group of my friends. I don't really like to do things with a large group of people that I don't know, or even care to know. Except for maybe play Volleyball.
There I was between a rock and a hard place. Then I thought, "What am I doing on this side of the rock?"
Incidentally, to compare Bill's solo route, I've just got my 3rd tier Alpha slotted and spent my remaining threads on iXP to get Judgement open.
I have done 5 full BAFs to get here. No more than 2 per day. They're done by rote now, aren't they?
I shall report further on my repetitive tennis court-bound attack-spamming progress towards Godhood. 
Eco.
MArcs:
The Echo, Arc ID 1688 (5mish, easy, drama)
The Audition, Arc ID 221240 (6 mish, complex mech, comedy)
Storming Citadel, Arc ID 379488 (lowbie, 1mish, 10-min timed)
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
[The Incarnate System is] Jack Emmert all over again, only this time it's not "1 hero = 3 white minions" it's "1 hero = 3 white rocks."
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Ultimately I'd be happy if they simply increased the drop rate of shards. They can keep the time gating conversions etc... but making shards drop more regularly would allow any soloist to eventually unlock their incarnate slots and build components at (in my opinion of course) a reasonable pace. Right now the drop rate is so abysmal just thinking about trying to go that route on my characters makes me flinch.
I was able to get t3 in every slot over the course of 3 days doing trials on my dominator. While I am not saying a solo path should be that fast, I do think increasing the rate at which shards drop would make shards a more viable method of unlocking incarnate abilities as a solo player. The current drop rate just makes it too painful to even consider trying that route.
Jem - Ill/Rad Controller Lv 50+3 Nic - Mind/Psi Dominator Lv 50+3 Lady Liberation - Invuln/SS Tanker Lv 50+1 Invicitx - Demon/Pain Mastermind Lv 50+1 Celeste - Emp/Arch Defender Lv 50+1 Nightsilver - DB/WP Scrapper Lv 34 Dusk Howl - StJ/Regen Brute Lv 32 Kyriani - Time/Energy Defender Lv 41Psifire - FF/Psi Defender Lv 50
Star Lighter - LB/LA Peacebringer Lv 30
I think raids are worse at promoting community than TFs or teaming through standard content. The timers discourage chatting and screwing around, and the repetitiveness encourages some rather selfish behavior from people who just want to get them over with...such as failure to explain what is going on to people who aren't familiar with the trial.
i dont mind the raid style system, but i HATE all the dang timers, the trials are the style of "rush rush rush speed speed speed" or your gonna fail and essentially waste 30-90 minutes of time depending on how long you were in the trial/searching for a trial
i like tfs because you can run them at your own pace, some poeple like to rush ITF in 15 min, ok fine, but i like to take my time and kill every last roman for possible drops and because its fun, idc if my runs take 1-2 hours, its a heckuva lot more fun than a 15 min run