Testing Shards to Incarnate Progression

What does his wife have anything to do with it?

*pssst*
His "better half".

.

Don�t say things. What you are stands over you the while, and thunders so that I cannot hear what you say to the contrary. - R.W. Emerson

Rubbish.

AE ARCs, flashback arcs with debuffs, the difficulty slider etc etc.

Thats true.

Everything I think is broken I've already suggested fixes for. But awarding threads everywhere shards are rewarded is fixing being on fire by drowning you.

The incarnate rewards are fundamentally very high escalations in power. Those things were intended to be tied to much more difficult end game content. If the players said, or the devs thought, that the players did not want such content, we wouldn't have gotten the incarnate system either. Period, end of story.

We got the incarnate system and the end game content tied together. But the problem that was perceived was that they were totally separate systems: the content didn't really overlap and the reward systems didn't really overlap. It was almost like two games side by side. So the devs used Alpha to bridge between the two. A *piece* of the Incarnate system would be the sacrificial lamb that would have two ways to earn: by end game content (which didn't really even exist when the Alpha slot was created) and from running standard content. So even if you were not running end game content, you could still make *some* progress in the incarnate system. First by earning shards which worked for Alpha, and later by trading shards for threads. This a compromise and not a necessary one: it was appealing to the players who wanted some continuity across the systems. I had reservations about the shard system because I thought it would have balance issues since it would have to be subject to multiple contradictory reward balance requirements. Incidentally, that objection tended to be acknowledged derisively if at all, I'm more than willing to point out. Just Arcana making ******** up again. But on the whole I accepted the shard system as a reasonable compromise, if a somewhat unstable one.

Awarding threads everywhere is tantamount to as saying let shards buy everything. But shards were intended to only buy Alpha: they are balanced on the presumption that its ok to award them everywhere, because they cannot efficiently unlock the other slots without passing through conversion gates that can be controlled and if necessary balanced over time. Now, when you say to remove shards and replace them with threads, I'm assuming you're asking for shards to be replaced with *more* threads and not just one to one, because we can already convert one to one through the conversion gate. The conversion gate is only a time gate if you can earn more than ten shards per day, every day, consistently. I'm assuming based on your OP that the actual earning rate is, separate from the multiple currency issue, unacceptable. So we'd be handing players more threads than shards now, they could earn them while completely avoiding end game content, and we'd have no gate control over this.

The shard system and its path to Alpha was a compromise between competing interests in connecting the power of the incarnate system to the end game content, and providing progressional continuity across the entire game. I thought it was a reasonable compromise. Its a compromise I expect the devs to honor. If it turns out that compromise forms the basis of overturning the end game reward system itself, that would mean I was mistaken. I won't make that mistake twice.

So which one should the solo Incanrate arc be designed for? The Defender or the Scrapper?

Shards components work only for the Alpha slot, so I don't think it's a fair exchange rate to consider then 5 threads. It is true that it takes 60 threads to make a common Alpha and 12 shards, but IMO, that's covered by threads greater drop rate. Threads are more flexible and allow you to imbue an incarnate with higher tiers of power. Shards must be converted on a time-gate to even be worth any threads.

Basically, what I'm saying is that threads do more and thus are worth more than shards and so the conversion rate we have now is more than fair.

Since I'm not married, and last time I checked I'm not schizophrenic, I don't know.

Technically, a happy medium someplace in between. JUST LIKE EVERYPLACE ELSE IN THE GAME.

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So easier for the Scrapper then?

i know that threads are used for a bit more than shards, which is why i was suggesting a 10:20 or 10:30 conversion

its still gonna suffer some loss, but not such as an extreme lost as to significantly increase the time required to craft anything

going from 10 shards (2.5 components) to 30 threads (1.5) components seems more fair than going from 10 shards to 10 threads (.5 components) or 5 threads (.25 components)

right now it would require 60 shards (15 components) for 60 threads (3 components) or 30 threads (1.5 components)

60 shards being worth 15 common components is worth 5 tier 1 alphas, and to convert it to threads is 1 tier 1 component or full unlock of interface and judgement

with the drop rate being as low as it is this is why the conversion rate should be adjusted to help at least make it more even


if using the 10:30 conversion rate, then it would be 20 shards for 60 threads, 20 shards is 5 common components, and 60 threads is 3 common components

it would cut the solo route time significantly by requiring only 1/4 of the materials for the same tier 1 thread-based incarnate power

if we use arcana's earn rate of 2.5 shards per hour it would take about 4 hours to get the 10 shards to do either the 10:10 or the 10:30 (my suggested) conversions


for the 10:30 conversion you would only need 2 conversions or approx 8 hours of time to get the shards needed (plus 2 days for time gated conversion)

for the 10:10 conversion you would need 6 conversions or approx 24 hours or 3x longer at the above rate for the same payout


now 8 hours may not sound like a lot, but there are some poeple who barely have 8 hours a week play time and it would make for a lot more reasonable goal than 24 hours, which for someone limited to 8 hours a week, would take 3 weeks PER tier 1 (im excluding slot unlocks since thats a 1 time thing)


to expand it further, at the 10:30 rate it would take 4 weeks to get a single tier 4 in each of the thread-based slots

for the 10:10 rate, it would take 3 months to get 1 tier 4 in each thread-based slot


im not gonna go into further detail since to get the higher tiers would require a significantly long time regardless of which conversion you are going for, but a 10:30 conversion while still suffering a loss, is better than 10:10 conversion which is what the free conversion should be

We're simultaneously talking about the shard path, and the solo path, and these are not precisely identical. I just mentioned to Bill in a PM something that is important for the shard path but not for the solo path. The best thing you can do outside of the trials that is technically part of the "shard" path is to do the WST. It requires teaming sort of, but come Freedom we're all going to be able to bypass the minimum player limit for task forces at least with free accounts (most of the time). It comes down to whether you can actually solo the task force or not.

But assuming most players can't actually solo task forces, looking at the WST as a teaming activity in the shard path, it awards a Notice of the Well which converts to 40 threads (if I'm remembering correctly). That is actually an extremely good time/thread ratio, depending on how fast you run task forces. But even if you end up taking three hours to solo a WST, that's still 13 threads per hour.

The strong time gate limits how fast you can earn threads this way, and its limited to "teaming" content. But it offers a path to incarnate power that is, while not literally using shards, technically part of the shard system.

By my calculations it takes 2390 threads to unlock and then slot all four incarnate slots with tier 3 powers. If you solo 10 hours a week averaging three shards per hour at BillZBubba's pace, and then run one WST a week separate from that, you'll be earning essentially 70 threads in about 12 hours (assuming two hours total to run the WST). It will then take about 34 weeks, or about 410 hours total to fully slot tier 3s, assuming you don't even get any shards or component drops convertible into a shard during the WST run. If we assume you get a few shards in those WSTs, the time drops to under 400 hours.

Still long, but not astronomically long. That's for tier 3 powers. Calculating for tier 4 powers triggers the discussion of whether it is reasonable to calculate average earning times for tier 4 without using its optimal methods of acquisition when its intended to be a longer term pursuit goal even under optimum conditions.

Incidentally, if you are a high performance player with alts then believe it or not, it actually gets better in a way. Because suppose you have exactly the same 12 hours to play, but decide to advance two level 50s at the same time. Now, you'll burn 4 hours running a WST for each alt, and you'll have only 8 hours left which you will split 4 and 4 between those alts. Each alt gets 12 shards and 40 threads from the Notice, or about 52 threads each for those same 12 hours of play. It will now take 46 weeks to fully tier 3 both alts, or about 551 hours of play. That's only 276 hours per alt. The more alts you spread yourself across (to a point), the more WSTs you do, the more efficient your earning time becomes. When you get to the point that those 12 hours are being burned doing 6 WSTs for 6 alts, it will take 60 weeks and 720 hours to get six alts to all tier 3 slotting. That's only 120 hours per alt. In calendar time, its taking progressively longer, but in terms of hours of play per alt the time is dropping quite fast. And even in terms of calendar time its taking less than twice as many weeks to progress six alts simultaneously as it does to progress one alt.

So would you support locking out Incarnate powers beyond Alpha in non-Incarnate content?

im not arguing that fact, its gonna take ridiculously long either way, but without using any notice of the wells the shard to thread conversion is a heavy loss, so if you never get any notice of the wells then your taking a huge hit to your thread stash

now if you have the inf to spend on making shards into notice of the wells (since there is a way to do that now), would it be worth crafting up to a notice then converting to threads?

this is assuming you do not run the weekly target

stems from a heated argument between him and a former player about his other account/rp personality, said thread has long been purged since it was huge flamebait.

it was quite entertaining.

I appreciate your calculations and you offering your thoughts a bunch.
I just see these types of time expenditures brought up now and then and usually passed over and passed off as "not as long as..." and I get the feeling that a lot of people file it as "not bad".
And I just wanted to say that... That's crazy!

But yeah, we all know the soloish path is crazy.

And that was interesting insight, in a previous post of yours, about the reasons for the shards. Thanks!

I've been wondering if they'll do a big Incarnate Salvage/Stuff consolidation some time after most of the Slots are live. However, I can see them leaving Alpha as separate.

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Yes. Haven't I explained yet how I'm one if those Players who 'prefers to solo'?

Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow [The Incarnate System is] Jack Emmert all over again, only this time it's not "1 hero = 3 white minions" it's "1 hero = 3 white rocks."

Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow [The Incarnate System is] Jack Emmert all over again, only this time it's not "1 hero = 3 white minions" it's "1 hero = 3 white rocks."

No - I'd prefer them to do what they're going to do - add tougher and tougher Trials, until we're challenged even with 10 slots open

Incarnates leave the current 50 content behind, just like 50s leave the level 40 stuff behind.

Sure, but please understand where that leads. We already have that to a degree where if you exemplar below 45 you lose your incarnate abilities. This gives the developers breathing room to make content for all playstyles. Also, the Incarnate shifts are specifically gated to the trials.

The devs have taken the wise view to allow people who have went down the Incarnate path be overpowered in non-Incarnate content. If you take away the abilities, then folks will demand that ALL content be scaled to the power level of incarnates. Which creates, in fact, the very treadmill that people are imposing on themselves now.

Right now you really don't have to do the Incarnate trials. Incarnate power is fun, but certainly not necessary. I've seen what happens when the point you make is taken to its logical conclusion. I suspect many others here have as well, because many have expressed fears that the Incarnate powers would be necessary to "keep up" with new content. I have seen no significant evidence that the devs intend for that to happen. But it will happen should Incarnate powers be locked away as you suggest. Only it will be the players demanding it.

Wow Claws...nice legal stance.

Ok...how about 'Check your data and see what people are running the most and complaining about the least. The MAJORITY of the players who do THAT are obviously having fun. How can we tell? Because they're running it a lot and not complaining. Try finding out what makes THAT so much more fun and make the game more like it.'

Happier now? Sorry if my time-pressure prompted me to end with a one-liner.

Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow [The Incarnate System is] Jack Emmert all over again, only this time it's not "1 hero = 3 white minions" it's "1 hero = 3 white rocks."

Which is why I suggested that some of the level 50 content get an Incarnate mode where every mob can scale to 54, and come with new tricks if necessary. Level shifts anyone?

Boom, there's you additional Incarnate content.

EDIT: Yes I know that mode will take some time to created.

*meekly raises hand*

Having just returned, having been away since the 5th Anniversary can I just say that this is me. I very carefully read all the in-game text but I am still coming here to work out the heck its all for. I dread to think what it must be like for someone completely new.

I'm still scratching my head over Hero Merits to be honest, "So I run a morality mission once and get Reward Merits but run a second one I get Hero Merits and they are spent on different things?"