Testing Shards to Incarnate Progression
By
Ahab001,
Posted on: 2011-06-29 21:41 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
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And I've found I die less at +4/x8 w/bosses w/AVs now that I've got the incarnate slots loaded up. Imagine that. But I don't "need" to run at max diff either, right? Just like I don't "need" enhancements at all, right?
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Originally Posted by BrandX
This is true.
That said, I've found PuG trials go smoother when more people have them, and they fail a bit more with out them. At least, that's how some of those "Hey 16 people on this lamba and only 4 at +1, everyone else is 50" have gone. |
Be well, people of CoH.
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Bill can do solo Trials. If people can get a trial going and duo it, Bill can get people together to solo it.|
Originally Posted by Indiramourning
Perhaps if the minimum players for Incarate trials were dropped to 1. I'd love to see how far BillZ could get in a solo Lambda or BAF. And you still earn Threads and such even if you fail it so...
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Which is no different than the duo had to do, since all the trials require more than 2 people to start them.
BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection
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Not to my knowledge. No.|
Originally Posted by BrandX
Havent they said that's already in the cards, just needs to take time.
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| So why are people asking for something they already said was coming? |
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I'm all for this Billz. Anything that makes a system as user friendly as possible seems like a great idea to me. |
Originally Posted by Bill Z Bubba
Glad to see the responses in here.
I would be interested in hearing the argument for keeping shards as is. What problems would arise right now if the devs decided to move forward with a straight swap out? All shards are converted to threads. All common shard components are converted to a random common thread component. All uncommon shard components are converted to a random uncommon thread component. Repeat for rare and very rare. Replace every instance of shards/shard components in the drop tables with threads/thread components. Remove all references to shards in Incarnate Power creation. What problems would this cause? |
I would also like to see the types of incarnate salvage get condensed down to just Common, Uncommon, Rare and Very Rare without all the variations in each level that serve no purpose.
We can't trade this salvage to anyone else, we can't sell it on the market and we can't even send it to other characters on our own accounts. So why have 4 different types of very rares?
At incarnate launch I couldn't even sidegrade this unwanted salvage into something useful if I happened to get an unneeded item during a Masters run. Having the different types of salvage for flavor purposes when the items don't even have flavor text is just a waste and a needless complication of the system.
Just condense them down to their basic level and keep the same cost for conversion. 20 Threads makes a common, 60 threads or 3 commons upgrade to an uncommon and so on.
Global: @Kelig
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Weren't you doing fine on 4/8 with just IOs (which can be obtained solo) without Incarnate abilities? o.O|
Originally Posted by Bill Z Bubba
And I've found I die less at +4/x8 w/bosses w/AVs now that I've got the incarnate slots loaded up. Imagine that. But I don't "need" to run at max diff either, right? Just like I don't "need" enhancements at all, right?
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I know I was running 4/8 on my Scrapper before Incarnate abilities and I didn't need to run at 4/8.
And nothing is stopping anyone from working towards the incarnates solo now, untill the devs get the solo incarnate content out, which will happen, it just hasn't happened yet.
Let's put it into perspective. At least what you want (soloable incarnate content) is a lot closer than what I want...the comic book staple of a dual pistols/defense AT.
Soloable Incarnate content, I'd bet in i21 (this is of course thinking one will not be getting a team together to run the trials solo, the same way people get solo TFs started).
Dual Pistols/Defense AT. Maybe never.
BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection
Spot On Bill.
Looking at the over complicated mutipule componets, iXp, threads,merits, whatever system leaves me confused on how A Dev thinks its a clean professional system.
I have seen this suggested before and i will suggest it myself.
Do away with All the crap and just go to a Incarnate XP system. Unlock your Alpha doing the Icarnate arc (i.e. Trapdoor) or iTrials if you prefer and from that pont on you gain iXp for doing Any content you Choose to play. Gain X amount of iXp and and spend it to unlock your slots. Its a clean and simple system, and in line with the 1-50 level up of the rest of the game. And to keep the Itrial lovers/framers happy just throwing a Big iXp bonus for the iTrials.
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Actually, I think when I first posted my analysis of this, I used the estimate of 2.5 shards per hour. That's actually a faster rate than I presumed.|
Originally Posted by Bill Z Bubba
THREE PER HOUR. Let's keep that in mind.
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I also assumed, however, that there was no specific requirement for the highest tiers of the system to be readily accessible via the most inefficient method of acquisition, a principle that exists everywhere else in the game's reward systems (such as the invention system).
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| Remove shards from the game. Replace them with threads. Please. |
There comes a point where I stop arguing against this tactic, and decide to toss my hands up and start *using* it instead.
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The last time I bothered to check, the devs had stated that they were not currently working on a solo path (other than shards to threads) but that they would consider looking into it. To me, that reads as "we're not doing it now, and we're probably not going to do it later." Especially considering their track record of actually fixing/addressing issues that have been shelved "until later." (Like base building and PVP, for example. And even AE at this point, since it's clearly almost too much to ask that they fix major mission-breaking bugs, like the arbitrary "this word is profane" filter.)|
Originally Posted by BrandX
Havent they said that's already in the cards, just needs to take time. So why are people asking for something they already said was coming?
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The fact that they just added a huge pile of costume parts as iMerit purchases says, to me, that the devs really aren't considering a solo path at the moment. Why? Because they're piling more and more carrots on top of the existing Massive Team Content, in a pretty transparent attempt to get more people to play them. "Hey, our data mining shows that some people with level 50 characters haven't run any iTrials yet, even though it would make their level 50 characters way more powerful. What can we do to bribe them into running some? I know, let's add an issue's worth of costume parts, and make them "exclusive" iTrial only rewards!" And now, the only ones not running iTrials at least a little are the few who are making some kind of pointless "moral stand" by refusing to participate.
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Originally Posted by TonyV
Hey Bill, how many purple recipes did you get during all of those missions?
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| Next up: Let's test how long it takes a team of five-year-olds with characters that have almost nothing but pool powers to get the Master of Lord Recluse badge. OH NOEZ!!! Something's broken, I demand you fix it!!!11!1!!!11! |
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| Thanks for trying, though. Good luck with your next strawman I'm sure you're working on as I type. |
your own posts.
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| That's what's so sad: I don't even necessarily disagree with the end conclusion; I have no strong feelings either way. But the methodology used to arrive at it and the tone of the demand hurts the argument way more than it helps. |
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| it after a foolish claim that it will take years to do something people are obviously doing in days is stupid |
I don't suffer from altitis, I enjoy every minute of it.
Thank you Devs & Community people for a great game.
So sad to be ending ):
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You know, this made me realize something. Is Billz original test even conclusive of anything? Maybe the RNG hated him that day? Could he have had better luck the next day?|
Originally Posted by tanstaafl
Days? Your posts are getting more and more laughable. Do you really know anyone claiming that they have used shards to get incarnated up in under a week using shards?
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His test ran for what, a couple of hours. Wouldn't a real test be more than that, over a bit of time, then take the average?
What if he got 5 and hour the rest of the week? It would throw off his one day test.
Just curious on that one.
Now, Im not saying I'm for the costumes/emotes being locked behind the content, however, I do know with them being locked, I have SG members running trials who otherwise might never have ran them...and they enjoy it because they want rewards that aren't based on xp/merits, but rather costume pieces/emotes.
So perhaps the Devs are catering to that player base. Which of course totally screws over the solo player only player base. But then the trial rewards wouldn't be trial rewards if they could be obtained so easily solo.
Basically...the devs are screwed no matter which road they take!
BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection
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It suits the thread |
Originally Posted by tanstaafl
Your posts are getting more and more laughable.
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@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
Only a few on my characters run nicely on x8. As such my shard rate is much lower than 3/hour. Mine is close to 1/hour.
There does need to be prelonged testing to the drop rate to really know how long. But getting enough in one week by shards alone would be either extremely lucky, or long play sessions.
Edit: I do some trials, not enough to be called grinding them. I'd prefer something better than the slow shard drop rate, as just getting the incarnate abilities was looking like a long long term goal for me, getting the more important shineys like auras will take me even longer. Takes me a long time to get a 50 too. Not really bothered by that 
I don't suffer from altitis, I enjoy every minute of it.
Thank you Devs & Community people for a great game.
So sad to be ending ):
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Arcanaville, I'm not following your post here. I'm guessing that you mean that shards were a bridge from standard content to the incarnate system and not the invention system.|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
I'm afraid I cannot support this suggestion no matter how many times it comes up. Shards were put into the game in the first place as a compromise to allow a bridge from standard content to the invention system. Shards have properties threads were never intended to have, such as being earnable everywhere. If the devs knew - if I knew - that the end result of shards being created was that they would effectively be used to justify eliminating the distinction between the Alpha bridge reward system and the Incarnate system I would have opposed shards right from the beginning, declaring them a slippery slope trojan horse.
There comes a point where I stop arguing against this tactic, and decide to toss my hands up and start *using* it instead. |
But what's the purpose of the bridge when you can skip it completely by farming the baf/lam/keyes to slot up your alpha?
For the rest, are you implying that the whole thing should just be ignored? That there's no point in trying to fix it now?
Be well, people of CoH.
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Incarnates are not related in any way shape or form to AE. If you want incarnate abilities, you have to run incarnate trials. You can also go do the slow route and do shards. |
Originally Posted by MrCaptainMan
What need is there for a fully slotted Incarnate? Why does he need those abilities? To do the Trials? And then what? To do them again? Over and over?
Sounds hideous to me, but fill your boots if it turns you on. I want Incarnate abilities to feel awesome when I'm soloing Lvl 50 AE story arcs. But even if I just wanted them to stand in Atlas saying "look at me, I'm uber!", that is reason enough to be entitled to earn them via a rrasonable and fun solo path. Eco |
I personally don't understand why people expect the same amount of effort and man-hours to go into trial incarnates and not solo incarnates.
I just did a BAF, out of idle curiosity more than anything else. The one Lambda I tried when it went libe was a borrible exoerience of running into a warehouse, dying, repeat.
I joined a queue for anhtjing and after ten minutes i was in a PUG BAF. I zoned in, said 'hi, my first BAF, what do I do?' and sb said 'lol follow the herd'. Then i stood in the middle of a giant mess of AoEs on a tennis court for 20 mins spamming my attacks (en/en blaster). At one point during this, my team ran over to some doors and I spammed my attacks for a bit there before going back to the tennis court.
Then it finished and Seige and Nightwing were dead.
It was dull as ditchwater. I got some astral merits and a common, but the actual Trial was:
a. easy
b. short
c. boring
I can do one of those a day to get my Incarnate stuff, I guess, but it'll be like having cold showers whilst waiting for decorators to finish reinstalling a boiler in my house, ie something to put up with not enjoy.
What on earth do people see in these things?
Eco
MArcs:
The Echo, Arc ID 1688 (5mish, easy, drama)
The Audition, Arc ID 221240 (6 mish, complex mech, comedy)
Storming Citadel, Arc ID 379488 (lowbie, 1mish, 10-min timed)
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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
[The Incarnate System is] Jack Emmert all over again, only this time it's not "1 hero = 3 white minions" it's "1 hero = 3 white rocks."
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I dont mean i want to earn Incarnate stuff in the AE. I want to use my cool Incarnate abilities when I'm in a lvl 50 AE arc. |
Originally Posted by Pacur
Incarnates are not related in any way shape or form to AE. If you want incarnate abilities, you have to run incarnate trials. You can also go do the slow route and do shards.
I personally don't understand why people expect the same amount of effort and man-hours to go into trial incarnates and not solo incarnates. |
Incarnate abilities are not meant to just be used in iTrials.
Eco
MArcs:
The Echo, Arc ID 1688 (5mish, easy, drama)
The Audition, Arc ID 221240 (6 mish, complex mech, comedy)
Storming Citadel, Arc ID 379488 (lowbie, 1mish, 10-min timed)
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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
[The Incarnate System is] Jack Emmert all over again, only this time it's not "1 hero = 3 white minions" it's "1 hero = 3 white rocks."
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They destroy any challenge in non-Trial content.
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Originally Posted by MrCaptainMan
Incarnate abilities are not meant to just be used in iTrials.
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@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
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Wait, wait wait. Back up. You've only ran one lambda trial, and one BAF trial?
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Originally Posted by MrCaptainMan
I just did a BAF, out of idle curiosity more than anything else. The one Lambda I tried when it went libe was a borrible exoerience of running into a warehouse, dying, repeat.
I joined a queue for anhtjing and after ten minutes i was in a PUG BAF. I zoned in, said 'hi, my first BAF, what do I do?' and sb said 'lol follow the herd'. Then i stood in the middle of a giant mess of AoEs on a tennis court for 20 mins spamming my attacks (en/en blaster). At one point during this, my team ran over to some doors and I spammed my attacks for a bit there before going back to the tennis court. Then it finished and Seige and Nightwing were dead. It was dull as ditchwater. I got some astral merits and a common, but the actual Trial was: a. easy b. short c. boring I can do one of those a day to get my Incarnate stuff, I guess, but it'll be like having cold showers whilst waiting for decorators to finish reinstalling a boiler in my house, ie something to put up with not enjoy. What on earth do people see in these things? Eco |
Any dedicated solo path must be possible on any AT with an SO build or/and people will complain its both to easy and to hard. Anything that fits that description will be abused by high performance builds and more people will complain that it cheapens the experience.
so if the end result is complaints you may as well go with the oldest, the "we have no end game content," first. Once the masses are sated on this round, add in another round of trials and solo route for the now outdated rewards.
give it time. it will happen "soon"
"If a system can be exploited, it will be exploited. And if a developer thinks their system cannot be exploited, it'll be exploited like a new actress in her first porn movie." Sanya Weather MMORPG Examiner
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That's where time-gating would come in - being able to run the solo Incanrate arc once every 24 hours would mean it wouldn't matter if it took one player 15 mintues to do it, or another player 2 hours.
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Originally Posted by James_Donner
simple fact of the matter is that any dedicated solo path must be possible on any AT with an SO build and people will complain its both to easy and to hard. Anything that fits that description will be abused by high performance builds and people will complain.
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@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
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Originally Posted by Golden Girl
They destroy any challenge in non-Trial content.
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Really? If I want to take my Bubble Defender into a +4x8 situation? These powers are going to destroy the challenge?
My *** they are!
Sure, maybe for someone who's running a kitted-out "His level says "Chuck Norris" in it!" scrapper, all they're doing is making stuff that's already easy easier. But the second someone starts in with "my scrapper", any semblance of challenge goes completely out the window.
This is NOT "City of Scrappers".
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And we come back around to the problem of creating significant solo/small team incarnate grade content. It's a non-trivial challenge to find the sweet spot for its difficulty in a game with so many varied builds and performance levels....wonder why they may have scheduled it back behind the initial trials...after they've had a chance to collect data on the incarnate powers in the wild, among other things.
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Originally Posted by Hyperstrike
Really? If I want to take my Bubble Defender into a +4x8 situation? These powers are going to destroy the challenge?
My *** they are! Sure, maybe for someone who's running a kitted-out "His level says "Chuck Norris" in it!" scrapper, all they're doing is making stuff that's already easy easier. But the second someone starts in with "my scrapper", any semblance of challenge goes completely out the window. This is NOT "City of Scrappers". |
Furio--Lvl 50+3 Fire/Fire/Fire Blaster, Virtue
Megadeth--Lvl 50+3 Necro/DM/Soul MM, Virtue
Veriandros--Lvl 50+3 Crab Soldier, Virtue
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Just as an observation, I've discovered that a character with ranged single-target attacks and a Stealth power can -- as long as you're careful around the Seers, who have enhanced perception, hang up at ceiling level and shoot the crates or containment chambers without drawing aggro. It's kind of funny to be hovering up at the ceiling of the warehouse throwing bolts of fire down onto a crate while all the Praetorians standing around it ignore the fire bolts, as if it's normal to have fire coming down from the ceiling to damage something you're guarding. There must be something in the Enriche...
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Originally Posted by MrCaptainMan
I just did a BAF, out of idle curiosity more than anything else. The one Lambda I tried when it went libe was a borrible exoerience of running into a warehouse, dying, repeat.
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"But in our enthusiasm, we could not resist a radical overhaul of the system, in which all of its major weaknesses have been exposed, analyzed, and replaced with new weaknesses."
-- Bruce Leverett, Register Allocation in Optimizing Compilers
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your alter-ego/wife/whatever needs to be the one posting instead of you.
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Originally Posted by TonyV
Good one!
 It's a bit sad to me that there are people so dug in here that they're probably asking that for real. |
and that also doesnt really help a fully IOd toon either unless you plan on transfering the stuff