Testing Shards to Incarnate Progression
By
Ahab001,
Posted on: 2011-06-29 21:41 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
Quote:
Not at all!|
Originally Posted by Hyperstrike
Which is completely besides the point.
Why level up? Why slot sets? Why get accolades? Why get vet status and abilities? BECAUSE IT IS THERE TO BE GOTTEN! Trying to convince yourself that you *need* powers for the raids, but soloists don't is merely elitism. |
What I'm saying is the soloist doesnt need to have it HERE AND NOW, since you know, it's just awesome stuff to work towards, more than "this massive player trial would go alot smoother and have a better chance to succeed if we all had some Incarnate powers"
The soloist is doing basic PvE content. Yes! That content would be made even easier to the point of one wondering if they indeed had their difficulty up, if the soloist had the tier 4s.
Now, if they had incarnate content that could be soloed, I'd understand all this. But...they don't!
So untill that time, I don't see the slow progression as a problem at all.
BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection
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As I have stated, this game is full of grinding and farming. Giving people the choice of what they wish to grind/farm/whatever should be on the plate.|
Originally Posted by AquaJAWS
It still takes effort from the team to take out all of the shards and put in threads. Then its still a grind, just not of the incarnate trials and we'll have other issues from another group of people. You can't please everyone.
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For incarnate progression, it isn't. A possible solution to lessen the time versus reward disparity has been presented. Only time will tell what the devs will do with it.
Be well, people of CoH.
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Those two players that duoed the lambda duoed basic PvE content. Wait, you say, the lambda isn't basic PvE content! It takes 8 to start!|
Originally Posted by BrandX
Not at all!
What I'm saying is the soloist doesnt need to have it HERE AND NOW, since you know, it's just awesome stuff to work towards, more than "this massive player trial would go alot smoother and have a better chance to succeed if we all had some Incarnate powers" The soloist is doing basic PvE content. Yes! That content would be made even easier to the point of one wondering if they indeed had their difficulty up, if the soloist had the tier 4s. Now, if they had incarnate content that could be soloed, I'd understand all this. But...they don't! So untill that time, I don't see the slow progression as a problem at all. |
Like the LRSF and STF. The LRSF has been soloed. Is it part of your basic PvE content?
I "need" the incarnate powers to solo the lambda. I'm looking forward to the attempt knowing that I'll probably never succeed. But there's your reason why soloists want and "need" the incarnate buffs.
Be well, people of CoH.
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I agree. Teams doing the regular PvE content (ie the non incarnate content) don't need them either.
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Originally Posted by Bill Z Bubba
I already answered to this same question from you in another thread.
If a soloist doesn't need incarnate abilities, the team players need them even less. Everything in this game is easier and faster for those on teams. This is by design. Your incorrect belief that soloists don't "need" incarnate abilities while those teaming do does nothing but tell us you don't know what soloists have been doing for the last seven years. |
BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection
Quote:
Oh now see. You said solo. They duoed it. And obviously they didn't have a problem with teaming, as they were teamed.|
Originally Posted by Bill Z Bubba
Those two players that duoed the lambda duoed basic PvE content. Wait, you say, the lambda isn't basic PvE content! It takes 8 to start!
Like the LRSF and STF. The LRSF has been soloed. Is it part of your basic PvE content? I "need" the incarnate powers to solo the lambda. I'm looking forward to the attempt knowing that I'll probably never succeed. But there's your reason why soloists want and "need" the incarnate buffs. |
[Edit] Well then, get in the Lamda, and solo it, and work your way up to the powers. It'd be just like a lot of teams did it.
They failed. They took the astral merits and threads, got their abilties and then finally beat it. Same principle applies, and you can solo the trials.
BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection
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That's the carrot. People wanted endgame for 7 years. They got endgame.|
Originally Posted by Bill Z Bubba
Why would the devs introduce near-gamebreaking powerlevels in a way that all you had to do was farm two trials for a few hours a night over the course of less than two weeks?
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Originally Posted by Bill Z Bubba
Of course the followup questions is why would they do so in a way that ONLY farming those two trials gets you there?
That's a better question. |
That said, they're working at least 2 issues ahead of what's on live. Even if they dropped *everything* and changed their plans (plans which I strongly believe already *do* include solo/normal team incarnate content already) to respond to the sturm und drang here on the boards there still wouldn't be anything tangible for months.
Patience.
Furio--Lvl 50+3 Fire/Fire/Fire Blaster, Virtue
Megadeth--Lvl 50+3 Necro/DM/Soul MM, Virtue
Veriandros--Lvl 50+3 Crab Soldier, Virtue
"So come and get me! I'll be waiting for ye, with a whiff of the old brimstone. I'm a grim bloody fable, with an unhappy bloody end!" Demoman, TF2
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AGAIN - you are intentionally ignoring that future costumes, powers, auras are gated. So by asking for a way to make progress as we did with the Alpha slot does not seem to be an extreme view.
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Originally Posted by BrandX
Not at all!
What I'm saying is the soloist doesnt need to have it HERE AND NOW, since you know, it's just awesome stuff to work towards, more than "this massive player trial would go alot smoother and have a better chance to succeed if we all had some Incarnate powers" The soloist is doing basic PvE content. Yes! That content would be made even easier to the point of one wondering if they indeed had their difficulty up, if the soloist had the tier 4s. Now, if they had incarnate content that could be soloed, I'd understand all this. But...they don't! So untill that time, I don't see the slow progression as a problem at all. |
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And I say again, IT IS NOT ABOUT NEED.|
Originally Posted by BrandX
Not at all!
What I'm saying is the soloist doesnt need to have it HERE AND NOW, since you know, it's just awesome stuff to work towards, more than "this massive player trial would go alot smoother and have a better chance to succeed if we all had some Incarnate powers" |
It's about a goal to be worked towards.
On the one hand, you have a track where Goal A can be reached in a couple days by going ape-**** doing one thing over and over and over again.
On the same track, at a more sedate pace, it can be gotten in a couple weeks.
On the other track, you're now talking months and months and months and hundreds millions of inf spent out. Even if the person doing the track is running at difficulty levels comparable to the first track.
While I'm not saying it's *either or*, I'm simply saying the two advancement tracks are not equitable. They don't have to be *THE SAME*. They should be in roughly the same ballpark though.
Quote:
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The soloist is doing basic PvE content. Yes! That content would be made even easier to the point of one wondering if they indeed had their difficulty up, if the soloist had the tier 4s. Now, if they had incarnate content that could be soloed, I'd understand all this. But...they don't! So untill that time, I don't see the slow progression as a problem at all. |
*Facepalm*
What's being asked for IS incarnate-level content for soloists.
What part about that was in ANY way unclear?
Or are we going to keep going around and around with "You don't need it because there's no content. There's no content because you don't need it."???
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"a few iTrials a week" is NOT what I define as Casual. It may be to you, and I've got no problem with that, but please don't tell me it is for everyone. |
Originally Posted by JuliusSeizure
That's a lot of polarized points based on comparing hard core grinders against what amounts to soloers or VERY casual players. Why can't you play a few iTrials a week while generating shards solo and converting Notices to threads? That's certainly on the casual side and it wouldn't take very long to augment a character with incarnate abilities. Solo content contributing? Check. Task Forces contributing? Check. And of course iTrials are the bread and butter-- as they should be.
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Eco
MArcs:
The Echo, Arc ID 1688 (5mish, easy, drama)
The Audition, Arc ID 221240 (6 mish, complex mech, comedy)
Storming Citadel, Arc ID 379488 (lowbie, 1mish, 10-min timed)
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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
[The Incarnate System is] Jack Emmert all over again, only this time it's not "1 hero = 3 white minions" it's "1 hero = 3 white rocks."
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Perhaps if the minimum players for Incarate trials were dropped to 1. I'd love to see how far BillZ could get in a solo Lambda or BAF. And you still earn Threads and such even if you fail it so...
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Originally Posted by Hyperstrike
You're laboring under the misapprehension that people ARE asking for this. They're NOT. Some of this stuff can be completed in a few days by relentless grinding of the trials. Great, fine and wonderful for those that want to do it that way.
But those that don't wish to grind trials, or are simply unable/unwilling to play them (for whatever reason) are being given a alternate system that kicks up the time necessary to generate similar rewards by an order of magnitude or more. Do the math from Bill's original post. See how long and expensive it'd be to unlock each of the 4 tiers simply by relying on random shard drops. Then tell me it's a load of crap. And how much Inf did you burn in the shard-to-thread and thread-to-exp conversion? Is it realistic to tell someone to save up for 7+ months, then spend a few hundred million? What'd be nice would be a series of missions (like Tips) that'd generate an Astral or two every day you ran the set of missions, then would generate an Empyrean at the end of an arc with an "alignment mission" type finishing mission. That and random thread drops here and there. Or better yet, if the missions are multi-objective, thread drops for completing the objectives. It'd be SLOWER than relentlessly grinding trials, but not "a few days vs 7-12 months" slower. |
It would also be a hell of a lot more fun IMO
Eco
MArcs:
The Echo, Arc ID 1688 (5mish, easy, drama)
The Audition, Arc ID 221240 (6 mish, complex mech, comedy)
Storming Citadel, Arc ID 379488 (lowbie, 1mish, 10-min timed)
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
[The Incarnate System is] Jack Emmert all over again, only this time it's not "1 hero = 3 white minions" it's "1 hero = 3 white rocks."
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Teams doing trials don't need them either.
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Originally Posted by BrandX
Teams doing the regular PvE content (ie the non incarnate content) don't need them either.
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i know about the changes, but i find that extremely insufficient since apex and tin mage were touted about pre i20 as being incarnate difficulty content, and yet we get almost no special rewards from it except now a tiny little astral merit every 20 hours|
Originally Posted by AquaJAWS
Yes. Sorry. Typo
They aren't ignoring them at all. They just upped the rewards you can get from them. Threads, astral merits, and super insps now. Its not how you said you wanted them to change, but they aren't being ignored. See the 20.5 patch notes: |
why bother with it when i can run a BAF 4 times a day a get 20 astrals AND im not limited from getting more AND i get incarnate xp AND empyrean merits
apex/tin mage tfs were called incarnate content pre i20, but now i fail to see they are anything more than a normal tf with slightly increased difficulty and a few more "entry" requirements to be able to run it
all i ask is that apex and tin mage be given the same rewards as a trial, its not exactly solo content but you dont need 2-3 teams of poeple to run it
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All the way to Marauder. Then he'd punch me into a fine paste on the ground.
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Originally Posted by Indiramourning
Perhaps if the minimum players for Incarate trials were dropped to 1. I'd love to see how far BillZ could get in a solo Lambda or BAF. And you still earn Threads and such even if you fail it so...
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Be well, people of CoH.
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yeah and now you just totally belittle the efforts to train organize and figure it out initially. Yes NOW it is pretty easy. In the beginning Before everyone had their incarnate powers when Pinnacles three main SG's banned together to make it workable it wasnt a walk in the park. IT is now. Fairly easy but still inexperienced teams fail it quite frequently. Both the BAF and the LAM. |
Originally Posted by Bill Z Bubba
I have already lead 3 lambdas and a BAF. It wasn't an effort any more than logging into the game. It was a nuisance.
Here's lambda. Repeat call to global and broadcast that trial is forming. As players join, place in appropriate group. Equalize ATs. Once desired league size is attained, queue it up. Run lap. Clear courtyard. Clear guns. Split up. Blow items up. Give all grenades to appropriate player. Close doors with acid. Keep Marauder pacified. Repeat. Yea, it's SOOO very difficult. No wait, it isn't. It's annoying. Especially that part where I'm standing around doing nothing but clicking invite to league/move to team X. I could be killin stuff instead if only there were some other viable way to get the shinies. |
You can tout/slam/demean all you want but there is something to be said for Teaming vs soloing in the difficulty category.
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Havent they said that's already in the cards, just needs to take time. So why are people asking for something they already said was coming?
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Originally Posted by Hyperstrike
And I say again, IT IS NOT ABOUT NEED.
It's about a goal to be worked towards. On the one hand, you have a track where Goal A can be reached in a couple days by going ape-**** doing one thing over and over and over again. On the same track, at a more sedate pace, it can be gotten in a couple weeks. On the other track, you're now talking months and months and months and hundreds millions of inf spent out. Even if the person doing the track is running at difficulty levels comparable to the first track. While I'm not saying it's *either or*, I'm simply saying the two advancement tracks are not equitable. They don't have to be *THE SAME*. They should be in roughly the same ballpark though. *Facepalm* What's being asked for IS incarnate-level content for soloists. What part about that was in ANY way unclear? Or are we going to keep going around and around with "You don't need it because there's no content. There's no content because you don't need it."??? |
BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection
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Yeah. Just having a few people level-shifted (as is the case on most teams) makes a HUGE difference. Just having the labs and warehouses mapped out makes a huge difference.
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Originally Posted by Blacier
yeah and now you just totally belittle the efforts to train organize and figure it out initially. Yes NOW it is pretty easy. In the beginning Before everyone had their incarnate powers when Pinnacles three main SG's banned together to make it workable it wasnt a walk in the park. IT is now. Fairly easy but still inexperienced teams fail it quite frequently. Both the BAF and the LAM.
You can tout/slam/demean all you want but there is something to be said for Teaming vs soloing in the difficulty category. |
"Men strunt �r strunt och snus �r snus
om ock i gyllne dosor.
Och rosor i ett sprucket krus
�r st�ndigt alltid rosor."
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Apex and Tin Mage also give a pretty good sum of Reward Merits. I run them pretty much whenver I see one form.
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Originally Posted by Necrotech_Master
i know about the changes, but i find that extremely insufficient since apex and tin mage were touted about pre i20 as being incarnate difficulty content, and yet we get almost no special rewards from it except now a tiny little astral merit every 20 hours
why bother with it when i can run a BAF 4 times a day a get 20 astrals AND im not limited from getting more AND i get incarnate xp AND empyrean merits apex/tin mage tfs were called incarnate content pre i20, but now i fail to see they are anything more than a normal tf with slightly increased difficulty and a few more "entry" requirements to be able to run it all i ask is that apex and tin mage be given the same rewards as a trial, its not exactly solo content but you dont need 2-3 teams of poeple to run it |
"Men strunt �r strunt och snus �r snus
om ock i gyllne dosor.
Och rosor i ett sprucket krus
�r st�ndigt alltid rosor."
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Because this is the forums.
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Originally Posted by BrandX
Havent they said that's already in the cards, just needs to take time. So why are people asking for something they already said was coming?
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Furio--Lvl 50+3 Fire/Fire/Fire Blaster, Virtue
Megadeth--Lvl 50+3 Necro/DM/Soul MM, Virtue
Veriandros--Lvl 50+3 Crab Soldier, Virtue
"So come and get me! I'll be waiting for ye, with a whiff of the old brimstone. I'm a grim bloody fable, with an unhappy bloody end!" Demoman, TF2
Quote:
which is nice, but reward merits do nothing for incarnate progression, hence my explanation as to why its just a normal tf instead of the "incarnate content" that it was said to be pre i20
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Originally Posted by Arilou
Apex and Tin Mage also give a pretty good sum of Reward Merits. I run them pretty much whenver I see one form.
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What need is there for a fully slotted Incarnate? Why does he need those abilities? To do the Trials? And then what? To do them again? Over and over? |
Originally Posted by Furio
That seems to be the most side-stepped question. *Currently* (it may well change in the future when they release solo incarnates stuff, which I believe will happen in some form) there's nothing in the game designed for the level of power that high-end incarnate powers grant. They're expressly designed for the Incarnate trials...not even just teams....but for the trials. If one isn't doing the trials for *whatever* reason, where is the *need* for solo incarnate power acquisition at a faster rate?
edit- and granted there are people that do amazing things solo..I'm talking from the dev standpoint, though. What need is there for a non-trial player to have the abilities that were expressly designed for use in the trials? |
Sounds hideous to me, but fill your boots if it turns you on.
I want Incarnate abilities to feel awesome when I'm soloing Lvl 50 AE story arcs.
But even if I just wanted them to stand in Atlas saying "look at me, I'm uber!", that is reason enough to be entitled to earn them via a rrasonable and fun solo path.
Eco
MArcs:
The Echo, Arc ID 1688 (5mish, easy, drama)
The Audition, Arc ID 221240 (6 mish, complex mech, comedy)
Storming Citadel, Arc ID 379488 (lowbie, 1mish, 10-min timed)
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
[The Incarnate System is] Jack Emmert all over again, only this time it's not "1 hero = 3 white minions" it's "1 hero = 3 white rocks."
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They do help you quite a bit if you want to get purples though.
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Originally Posted by Necrotech_Master
which is nice, but reward merits do nothing for incarnate progression, hence my explanation as to why its just a normal tf instead of the "incarnate content" that it was said to be pre i20
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"Men strunt �r strunt och snus �r snus
om ock i gyllne dosor.
Och rosor i ett sprucket krus
�r st�ndigt alltid rosor."
Quote:
I was in no way belittling the effort that went into the learning phase. I was discussing what it is now. And how long did it take before the core players on Pinn were sleepwalking through it? Less than a day.
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Originally Posted by Blacier
yeah and now you just totally belittle the efforts to train organize and figure it out initially. Yes NOW it is pretty easy. In the beginning Before everyone had their incarnate powers when Pinnacles three main SG's banned together to make it workable it wasnt a walk in the park. IT is now. Fairly easy but still inexperienced teams fail it quite frequently. Both the BAF and the LAM.
You can tout/slam/demean all you want but there is something to be said for Teaming vs soloing in the difficulty category. |
Be well, people of CoH.
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This is true.|
Originally Posted by Amy_Amp
Teams doing trials don't need them either.
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That said, I've found PuG trials go smoother when more people have them, and they fail a bit more with out them.
At least, that's how some of those "Hey 16 people on this lamba and only 4 at +1, everyone else is 50" have gone.
BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection
If all I could get was Incarnate powers - I would never say a word about the trials.
However the DEVS - said they are gating other content behind the trials. Costumes, auras, powers and so on. The thought seems to be if I have to grind this stuff out why should you get a way you like to get the rewards.
Drop shards out of the game and just use threads and use their current drop rate while doing normal 50's content. Is that asking so very much?
Seriously is that single thing asking too much for the solo/small group people to be happy?