Still no. Also, suggestion forums are that-a-way, where you will find hundreds of copies of this suggestion.
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Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
Why a full respec is not a good idea for COH.
So, you've played your Apathy/Dual Wet Noodle Tank to 50 and decided you don't like him. You've come to the forums and said "Why not let me completely respec the character!" Well, people consider a "full respec" to be different things. I'm going to cover a complete and total character respec. If some of them don't apply, well, this comes up enough for this to be a copy and paste reply. There are four things that the developers and game see as defining your character: 1. Archetype 2. Origin 3. Primary powerset 4. Secondary powerset When people talk about a full respec, they're either talking about the powersets or the whole enchilada. A Respec is short for respecification - altering what your character can do. This can be through reordering the levels you took powers, reassigning slots, and/or changing power pools. You'll note that none of this touches on changing the four listed items. The reason being that if any of those change, it's not the same character. A respec is not recreation or reimagining. It's tweaking your character a bit. Now, let's go through some of these "full respecs." Primary/Secondary You're sure to hear this repeated a good bit - Just because you've played one set, doesn't mean you know how to play them all. For instance, my namesake tank is a Fire/Superstrength tank. I know how he plays. The most similar powerset to him at the time of writing is Dark Armor. It's resistance based, it has no knockback protection, it has a damage aura, a self heal that does damage - it even has a self rez as its tier9. They don't play anything alike. (I can say this, because I also have a version that's DA/SS.) Fire has no Psi protection. It has no stealth. Burn has a far different effect than Oppressive Gloom, and nothing similar to Cloak of Fear. It calls for a thoroughly different style of play. With Fire, I can leave my toggles on and go to town. With Dark Armor, I have to be selective, or the times I have to herd stragglers (for instance) won't work exceptionally well. Dark Armor also does not have anything like Consume to help out with Endurance - that's in Dark Melee. With "similar" sets being that different - try Fire vs Stone. Or Invulnerability. You now have a set at or near 50 (when most people seem to mention wanting this - "I have a 50 that...") that you don't know how to slot effectively (which means you'll be doing *at least* one more respec) and don't know how to play effectively. That's just changing *one* side of the equation. Now add in, say, going from Stone Melee to Dark Melee. Different effects, with *very* different affects on your survivability. And you won't know how to slot that, either, or how well they synergize. Similarly, a Stormie plays vastly differently from an Empath, or a Dark, or a Rad. Earth Control is nothing like Illusion. Combo-chasing with Dual Blades won't help you with Martial Arts. How do I know that this ends up being a mess? Beta testing. The devs have, on rare occasion, bumped up characters to specific levels. The most notable was when Recluse's Victory came out for testing. Everyone was made level 40 - and it was a *mess.* Sure, people made copies of their own characters, and those worked out. Then there were those (many, many of those) who said "Hey, I've never had a X/Y before, I'll make one of those!" Like I said, it was a mess. You could very easily tell who had done that versus making copies of characters they knew. Now, yes, over time you'll learn your powerset - but in the meantime, you're not going to be very effective, or very happy. Archetype Now, given what I just said about powersets, imagine a *whole different AT.* Your tank is now an Empath? Really? You know how to survive as a Blaster because you played a Scrapper? And don't even get me started on epics. If *sets* are that different, Archetype is that times ten. Impact on enhancements IOs are a big part of the game right now. Think about IO'ing out your character. You get your KB protection, sets and the like, potentially spending millions (or more) on finishing up these sets, or working on merits or whatnot. Now, you change your primary - again, we'll take a tank - from a resistance based one to a defense based one. Guess what is now useless to you. You *may* have a power to stick that resist set in, somewhere, but now you're defense based - and those resist sets dont' work for you any more. That Knockback set isn't taken any more. It's even worse when you say you want to switch AT - what is a Blaster going to do with a resist set? What is a Scrapper going to do with Sting of the Manticore or Malaise's Illusions? This isn't even touching on the fact that *you could only retain ten enhancements.* That's 1 2/3 six-slotted powers. And you'd have nobody to blame for all that lost time and INF but yourself... Origin Origin holds a strange place in this list. I'm just going to touch on it briefly. Origin used to matter *vastly,* back in pre-beta. It determined how many powers you could learn and how skilled you could get with them. The system was scrapped, and for a long time it was mostly an RP item, as well as determining which enhancements you could use. It now has *some* impact in the game with some temp powers - the "helper" power you get at level 1 (throwing knives, taser, mutagen, etc.) as well as some of the vet powers. The main impact, though, would be if you'd equipped with DOs or SOs, with the lost INF. That said, you would be able to get some of it back. Origin's probably the least of the problems with a full respec. Though some would, of course, complain that they no longer get a damage bonus or what have you - and who knows what the devs may do with this in the future. Gameplay There are also three other things to consider. 1. The game is designed around alts. Seriously. If this were Guild Wars, for instance, with severely limited slots, I could see wanting to do a complete respec. But by default, you can make over 100 characters before feeling a pinch - and can purchase up to 24 additional slots per server, if you so choose. Don't like one set, make some others and try them out. 2. It's just not that hard to level. Seriously... it's not. With half debt inside missions, patrol XP, double XP weekends, XP smoothing, XP adjustments (typically up,) debt reduction everywhere... it just *isnt'* hard to level. And levelling "honestly" means you're learning your powersets, how they work with each other and others and hopefully how to use them best - which will only make you a stronger player. 3. The devs say "no." The devs have said no. They devs will continue to say no. The most recent "no" being the 4/2010 Q&A. So this is not just player opinion. In closing, let me just say "No. Roll an alt." |
Where to now?
Check out all my guides and fiction pieces on my blog.
The MFing Warshade | The Last Rule of Tanking | The Got Dam Mastermind
Everything Dark Armor | The Softcap
don'T attempt to read tHis mEssaGe, And believe Me, it is not a codE.
Ack sorry no I don't think they will sell the ability to change power sets from one power set to another.
But it's MY sadistic mechanical monster and I'm here to make sure it knows it. - Girl Genius
List of Invention Guides
Quote:
I saw that. And changed my answer after I realized I answered the wrong question. Ah well just goes to show I'm humanoid.
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison
We already can, but he's not talking about that kind. He's talking to change a WP/Dark tank into a Fire/Mace tank, or something similar.
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But it's MY sadistic mechanical monster and I'm here to make sure it knows it. - Girl Genius
List of Invention Guides
Quote:
It is not a suggestion but a gauge on what the rest of the player population thinks about the idea. I think it holds merit but would be open to hearing why it would not. Don't completely agree with the quote you posted.
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison
Still no. Also, suggestion forums are that-a-way, where you will find hundreds of copies of this suggestion.
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Paragonian Knights
Justice Company
Quote:
Would you like to offer specific counter points and try a respectable debate, then?
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Originally Posted by Grae Knight
Don't completely agree with the quote you posted.
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Where to now?
Check out all my guides and fiction pieces on my blog.
The MFing Warshade | The Last Rule of Tanking | The Got Dam Mastermind
Everything Dark Armor | The Softcap
don'T attempt to read tHis mEssaGe, And believe Me, it is not a codE.
Quote:
Nope. It really is not that big of a deal to invest any time in it. But thanks for the offer.
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison
Would you like to offer specific counter points and try a respectable debate, then?
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Paragonian Knights
Justice Company
I am actually against it. The main reason is it would allow a really easy to use set/at to be played to 50, then swapped out for something broken. Elec/SD scrappers come to mind as an example. Both sets late bloom, but something like DB/WP is easy all the way through. So I could take DB/WP play it to 50, the swap it out for the uber Elec/SD.
Also consider the people who were like the old Winter Lord and AE babies. I would prefer to play with people who know their set, and their character from the bottom up. I have seen it in beta tests that auto level to 50.
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I am for this if they charge 50 dollars a pop to do it!
Imagine all that influx of cash for them to create more stuff for me to play/buy and just level up to begin with!
BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection
I'd support primary/secondary respecs IF:
- It started you back down at level one, but gave you a "bonus patrol xp" power (akin to the vet reward) with enough charges to roughly last up to the level you were when taking that power.
That way, it could be used for people that want to keep their badges while requiring the person to learn the new aspects of the power at an accelerated leveling rate.
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Hmmm...if it allowed you to change ATs as well, i'd pay the 50 I suggested to do it, just to keep my badges!
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Originally Posted by Chase_Arcanum
I'd support primary/secondary respecs IF:
- It started you back down at level one, but gave you a "bonus patrol xp" power (akin to the vet reward) with enough charges to roughly last up to the level you were when taking that power. That way, it could be used for people that want to keep their badges while requiring the person to learn the new aspects of the power at an accelerated leveling rate. |
BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection
Quote:
What Dechs posted|
Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison
Still no. Also, suggestion forums are that-a-way, where you will find hundreds of copies of this suggestion.
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/unsigned
Unless you are OCD about the badges, roll the new version and you can get it PLed(yes, I know) to 50 quick enough so you can start working on IOing out the build so you deal with minimal time for not being able to play your "signature" character the way you want to. If you need the name as well, spend the ten bucks to change the old version to something new and then roll the new one.
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That's an excellent observation, Grae Knight. I agree; we should spend no time on this frivolity.
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Originally Posted by Grae Knight
Nope. It really is not that big of a deal to invest any time in it. But thanks for the offer.
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Frankly, I'd love the option to do so... provided that doing so knocks you right back to Lv1. That way you keep your badges, souvenirs, unlocked costumes and pieces and so on, but still avoids the pitfalls of Lv50-rerolls.
I'm in the "I'd pay money for this" category, and up to a $50 value at that.
I disagree that just because some people will choose sets they're not familiar with that no one should be able to choose new sets. But if you really don't think a warning about adjusting to a new build will work, how about this:
The ability to swap two characters' builds (powersets, enhancements, ATs, and all). So your main, sitting in the first slot because she's the first character you ever made, gets to keep her position, her badges, her name, and appearance, and gets the build of another character of yours. For simplicity's sake, they have to be the same level.
I don't care about the badges themselves, but the things the badges unlocked. I really hate non-account-wide badges, but that's getting off-topic.
Quote:
I could get behind this. There is no reason any one should be allowed to respec like this and not have to start over.
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Originally Posted by Chase_Arcanum
I'd support primary/secondary respecs IF:
- It started you back down at level one, but gave you a "bonus patrol xp" power (akin to the vet reward) with enough charges to roughly last up to the level you were when taking that power. That way, it could be used for people that want to keep their badges while requiring the person to learn the new aspects of the power at an accelerated leveling rate. |
~ Infinity Heroes ~
Dark Voltage - 50 NRG/NRG/EM Blaster
Shure Shot - 50 Arch/NRG/MM Blaster
Silent Shadow Blade - 50 Katana/SR/BM Scrapper
Uphir - 50 Fire/Fire/Fire Blaster
I have never had a 50 I wished to re-roll, however, I did get an ice-themed controller (Ice/Storm) to level 23 just before Cold Domination was released for Controllers. Naturally, that wasn't a tough decision to re-roll, but it is a similar scenario nevertheless.
IMO, this is something we could see in-game, but ONLY if the following criteria were met:
- Power sets only. No changing archetype nor origin.
- Upon "reset," all enhancements are sold for the amount they would sell for during a current respec, all salvage and recipes are sold for the amount of inf. they would sell for at in-game stores. Inspirations are deleted.
- Start the character back at level 1, sort of like a "Special New Game" option given in many video games with campaign modes (i.e. keeping things you unlocked the first time through, like badges or SG Prestige in this case, but starting back at the beginning).
- There should be some cost (in Paragon Points) but how much would depend on other factors.
- There should be a time limit to how often an account can execute one of these. My suggestion is 1 per month, but this combined with the price could vary dependently.
The last 2 points should supplement the "the gaming developers lose money on these" argument.
If all of that criteria was met, in my mind, it is fathomable. However, the last few points of Memphis_Bill's infamous copypasta still stand strong, and could very easily negate everything I just wrote
@Winter. Because I'm Winter. Period.
I am a blaster first, and an alt-oholic second.
I've done something similar in other games, (including D&D, but what isn't possible in tabletop?) but again, it just won't work here.
http://www.seventhsanctum.com/index-anim.php
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Quote:
Now that is a VERY interesting idea.|
Originally Posted by Chase_Arcanum
I'd support primary/secondary respecs IF:
- It started you back down at level one, but gave you a "bonus patrol xp" power (akin to the vet reward) with enough charges to roughly last up to the level you were when taking that power. That way, it could be used for people that want to keep their badges while requiring the person to learn the new aspects of the power at an accelerated leveling rate. |
To the OP: I hope not. This game has always, ALWAYS encouraged alts. If they were to do it, it better cost real money, because the respec idea will cost Paragon studios real money. No, really - think about it for a second.
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Just pointing out, because Im going to be pointing out reasons I think this might be good now, is because of the coming Paragon Points system. It's what's rekindled my interest in the idea, and it's what I think sufficiently changes the game to the point it's a viable and smart business oppurtunity for CoH and Paragon Studios and NCSoft.
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It's a long well thought out argument, but it can be pretty easily debunked.|
Primary/Secondary You're sure to hear this repeated a good bit - Just because you've played one set, doesn't mean you know how to play them all. For instance, my namesake tank is a Fire/Superstrength tank. I know how he plays. The most similar powerset to him at the time of writing is Dark Armor. It's resistance based, it has no knockback protection, it has a damage aura, a self heal that does damage - it even has a self rez as its tier9. They don't play anything alike. (I can say this, because I also have a version that's DA/SS.) Fire has no Psi protection. It has no stealth. Burn has a far different effect than Oppressive Gloom, and nothing similar to Cloak of Fear. It calls for a thoroughly different style of play. With Fire, I can leave my toggles on and go to town. With Dark Armor, I have to be selective, or the times I have to herd stragglers (for instance) won't work exceptionally well. Dark Armor also does not have anything like Consume to help out with Endurance - that's in Dark Melee. With "similar" sets being that different - try Fire vs Stone. Or Invulnerability. You now have a set at or near 50 (when most people seem to mention wanting this - "I have a 50 that...") that you don't know how to slot effectively (which means you'll be doing *at least* one more respec) and don't know how to play effectively. That's just changing *one* side of the equation. Now add in, say, going from Stone Melee to Dark Melee. Different effects, with *very* different affects on your survivability. And you won't know how to slot that, either, or how well they synergize. Similarly, a Stormie plays vastly differently from an Empath, or a Dark, or a Rad. Earth Control is nothing like Illusion. Combo-chasing with Dual Blades won't help you with Martial Arts. How do I know that this ends up being a mess? Beta testing. The devs have, on rare occasion, bumped up characters to specific levels. The most notable was when Recluse's Victory came out for testing. Everyone was made level 40 - and it was a *mess.* Sure, people made copies of their own characters, and those worked out. Then there were those (many, many of those) who said "Hey, I've never had a X/Y before, I'll make one of those!" Like I said, it was a mess. You could very easily tell who had done that versus making copies of characters they knew. Now, yes, over time you'll learn your powerset - but in the meantime, you're not going to be very effective, or very happy. |
1. You don't just magically quit learning how to play because a character is 50. Or if you did the respec at earlier levels, the learning process isn't completely derailed, unable to be followed. Are you going to be less effective while you try and grasp the new sets? Quite possibly. (I think that the differences between sets in the same archetype are not quite as drastic as Memphis points out, personally.) The example he pointed out? It was a 48 hour crash test. Some people only hopped on and played for less than an hour. And it was mainly for PVP only. Sure, some people ran off to do PVE content, but most were compounding the difficult learning situation with first time PVP experiences too.
Memphis himself even debunks the entire difficulty argument later, I'll point out where.
2. That last line? You can't predict another person's happiness. Honestly, happiness is pretty much a fickle and non-measurable statistic for the most part. (Im sure someone will break out a math example here to prove me wrong.)
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Archetype Now, given what I just said about powersets, imagine a *whole different AT.* Your tank is now an Empath? Really? You know how to survive as a Blaster because you played a Scrapper? And don't even get me started on epics. If *sets* are that different, Archetype is that times ten. Impact on enhancements IOs are a big part of the game right now. Think about IO'ing out your character. You get your KB protection, sets and the like, potentially spending millions (or more) on finishing up these sets, or working on merits or whatnot. Now, you change your primary - again, we'll take a tank - from a resistance based one to a defense based one. Guess what is now useless to you. You *may* have a power to stick that resist set in, somewhere, but now you're defense based - and those resist sets dont' work for you any more. That Knockback set isn't taken any more. It's even worse when you say you want to switch AT - what is a Blaster going to do with a resist set? What is a Scrapper going to do with Sting of the Manticore or Malaise's Illusions? This isn't even touching on the fact that *you could only retain ten enhancements.* That's 1 2/3 six-slotted powers. And you'd have nobody to blame for all that lost time and INF but yourself... |
The enhancement/IO issue? Where's it any different from respeccing now and losing enhancers because you swapped out powers? It's just a more extreme example. Put shiny warning labels (just like there is with server transfers and losing names) stating that all enhancements will be lost. Some people will be fine with this.
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Origin Origin holds a strange place in this list. I'm just going to touch on it briefly. Origin used to matter *vastly,* back in pre-beta. It determined how many powers you could learn and how skilled you could get with them. The system was scrapped, and for a long time it was mostly an RP item, as well as determining which enhancements you could use. It now has *some* impact in the game with some temp powers - the "helper" power you get at level 1 (throwing knives, taser, mutagen, etc.) as well as some of the vet powers. The main impact, though, would be if you'd equipped with DOs or SOs, with the lost INF. That said, you would be able to get some of it back. Origin's probably the least of the problems with a full respec. Though some would, of course, complain that they no longer get a damage bonus or what have you - and who knows what the devs may do with this in the future. |
The "Problems" it would cause? Easily solved by Disclaimer text: "Warning, selecting a new Origin may affect certain powers that are affected by Origin. You may lose enhancements not appropriate for your new origin. Proceed with caution."
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Gameplay There are also three other things to consider. 1. The game is designed around alts. Seriously. If this were Guild Wars, for instance, with severely limited slots, I could see wanting to do a complete respec. But by default, you can make over 100 characters before feeling a pinch - and can purchase up to 24 additional slots per server, if you so choose. Don't like one set, make some others and try them out. |
And here's that part I mentioned earlier..
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2. It's just not that hard to level. Seriously... it's not. With half debt inside missions, patrol XP, double XP weekends, XP smoothing, XP adjustments (typically up,) debt reduction everywhere... it just *isnt'* hard to level. And levelling "honestly" means you're learning your powersets, how they work with each other and others and hopefully how to use them best - which will only make you a stronger player. |
And worst case scenario, person respecs, does utterly horrible, and hates the entire experience..
They can purchase the ability again and respec back to what they knew.
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3. The devs say "no." The devs have said no. They devs will continue to say no. The most recent "no" being the 4/2010 Q&A. So this is not just player opinion. |
And let's just go ahead and address another argument. "This will cause a negative play experience for other players, as they will have to deal with people that are learning how to play the new set/AT."
Any player that just can't stand someone "underperforming" on their team/league can always ask the group leader to boot "bad" players. Or if they're the leader, they can do it themselves. You can flag them with the player rating system just in case your memory is faulty. One good thing about this game is, well, if you don't like a player or how they're playing, there's always ways to deal with it.
In closing, we're entering a new era to the game. Powerset Respecs, (and AT Respecs) are something that could bring in extra cash flow to Paragon/NCsoft. I honestly can only see one reason why they wouldn't do it, and that's if the cost of having a team develop/design the process is so exorbitant, a profit couldn't be made.
Quote:
I could get behind this. Call it the Legacy Respec or something.|
Originally Posted by Chase_Arcanum
I'd support primary/secondary respecs IF:
- It started you back down at level one, but gave you a "bonus patrol xp" power (akin to the vet reward) with enough charges to roughly last up to the level you were when taking that power. That way, it could be used for people that want to keep their badges while requiring the person to learn the new aspects of the power at an accelerated leveling rate. |
And charge seperately for the name change and costume tokens.
"Ooo! A little fight in you! I like that..."
"Then you're going to love me."
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Grae Knight
It is not a suggestion but a gauge on what the rest of the player population thinks about the idea. I think it holds merit but would be open to hearing why it would not. Don't completely agree with the quote you posted.
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It runs contrary to making alts which for many are the reason they stay in the game.
Some ATs and power sets level easier than others. So you level up with an easy one then switch your 50 to a set that falters in the 30s? I'd rather have the sets fixed.
As Bill said you'd have piles of IOs that you might not be able to use. That's a tremendous waste of resources.
As much as the Devs have changed their mind on things over the years I'm pretty sure this one will stay no.
"Comics, you're not a Mastermind...you're an Overlord!"
As much as I'd be interested in changing my Grav/Kin Controller to a Grav/Time Manipulation Controller, I don't think they'll implement it, which means either deleting a level 45 character (and I level glacially, thanks to the utter joy that is the 30's to 45's content wise) or trying to find the space to reroll the character amongst my now extremely limited slots on my server of choice (All 36 have characters in, and I would love dearly for a limit of 48 per server)
Quote:
If you don't play all of them equally, don't forget that as a VIP you'll be getting 1 free sever transfer a month, so you could free up slots on your home server by moving less frequently played avatars someplace else.
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Originally Posted by Zortel
As much as I'd be interested in changing my Grav/Kin Controller to a Grav/Time Manipulation Controller, I don't think they'll implement it, which means either deleting a level 45 character (and I level glacially, thanks to the utter joy that is the 30's to 45's content wise) or trying to find the space to reroll the character amongst my now extremely limited slots on my server of choice (All 36 have characters in, and I would love dearly for a limit of 48 per server)
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@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
I am hoping that the new store will offer us a chance to purchase powerset respecs. I know I am not the only one with that beloved level 50 from Issue 2 that would like to change one or both of their sets to something else. I would even support it being a relatively high price to keep it from being abused.
Does this interest anyone else or would this be too game-breaking?
Paragonian Knights
Justice Company