Discussion: Gamasutra interviews Matt Miller and Nate Birkholz

^ Can't really disagree. Then they could actually listen to the feedback from the PvPers, who by all accounts did a pretty good job of drawing up a large draft of changes before 13 steamrollered them with no real grounding.

Originally Posted by Zwillinger GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.

Originally Posted by Captain_Photon NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.

I find it particularly funny they're making a grindy endgame for an MMO in which alt-ism has been the norm for seven years. Well, funny in a sad demented sort of way.

Michelle wins for quoting Blazing Saddles!

The very last sentence of that article is cryptic, and can be taken both ways. I really hope it means "Growth doesn't always have to be expansion, so we may be taking a look at some of our older systems!" rather than "Spiritual growth has no place in an MMO, so moar moar moar!"

Also, let's not blame the Devs for the article's content or written structure. All they can do is feed the writer the information, information that has to be approved by the publicity department. They have next to no influence on what gets put in the actual article.

I don't PvP. I hate PvP. I love Issue 13's PvP changes because a> it got rid of the FOTM PvP build and b> It decoupled PvP power definitions from PvE power definitions.

In other games where powers work exactly the same in PvP and PvE, there is a constant, never ending stream of powers changes due entirely to PvP players complaining about power a or ecstatic about power b, which drives another round of nerf cries and calls for buffs to powers, etc, etc, etc.

I would HATE to see that decoupling undone just because people don't want Issue 13's changes anymore. PvP MUST remain separate from PvE when it comes to powers definitions.

Second, PvP players are a niche market (PVP) of a niche market (City of Heroes) in a niche market (MMORPGS). They're very vocal, certainly, but PvP is NOT a big part of most people's gaming experience in City of Heroes or indeed in most MMORPGs.

I doubt very much that people will PvP more because of ANY changes to PvP. Even if PvP changes were reversed without decoupling, the only characters you'd see in the PvP zones are high defense + stealth + high DPS characters, aka Widows.

Calm down.

You should have stopped there.

1)If you hate pvp and don't pvp, FOTM pvp build have ZERO effect on you.

2)Power can be made to work differently from pve powers, as i13 proved, so they can be altered via buff or nerf, without affecting pve in any way shape or form.

3)How big the pvp community is in this game is irrelevant to the argument of whether or not the i13 changes should be reverted. The fact is, many players do enjoy pvp, so in a game with a relatively small niche market, it's foolish to throw away any part of your customer base when you have the chance to keep them with a very minor and easy change. The people who enjoyed pvp are not asking for a redesign, they're asking to simply go back to what it was.

You should have stopped after your first two sentences, because that is why you truly like the i13 changes - it took a fun pvp system, albeit flawed, and made it far worse and drove away most of the players who enjoyed it.

I wholeheartedly agree. This is a game of alts, so it would have been better to make the incarnate abilities far less grindy, because people would more happily redo them on their enless list of alts.

I myself have kind of gotten sick of the system already because I don't want to grind through it for all my alts. If it were less demanding, I'd be far more likely to continue going thru them on my various alts that still need the abilities. Then on top of that, knowing what it will take to get to the top of the mountain makes creating new toons disheartening as well.

Paragon and NCSoft don't decide what writers on third party websites write about. They choose how to answer the questions, but they don't get to pick what questions get asked. You should probably direct your concerns to Gamasutra and the other sites that these pieces are appearing in.

I find it funny that people are still equating "grindy" with just gathering loot or end game content. The entire game can be a grind, especially for people with alt-itis, since they're doing the same content more often.

You can't pick and choose what the definition of Grind is to suit your preferences. People have been grinding levels for 7+ years, grinding badges, grinding for unlockable costume pieces, grinding, grinding, grinding, way before Incarnates showed up.

The first game developer that listens to 100% of player input, and acts on it, will be the first.

Odd that you say that and then pick and choose your own definition, too. "Grinding levels" for 7 years? Badges and some of the unlockables fit what people would consider "grind," I agree - doing the exact same thing over and over. But if you want to throw that out to "All you do is kill mobs, you grind levels!" well, you're being ridiculous.

Why do people call the Incarnate system (post-Alpha) a grind? Because they *must* do the same 2 (soon three, oooohhhh...) trials over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over again. They have no choice. If they go and decide, hey, I want to run X arc in Ouroboros? No progress toward the Incarnate system. If they want to help a friend take down an AV? No progress.

The Alpha system was non-grind. You have a variety of activities - no, 2-3 is not "variety" - to gather shards and create your alpha ability, and upgrade it. You have a variety of task forces, that change each week, to get "notices," and can still earn components. That's a decent system. Having to run the same thing over and over again, to where you can sleep through not just the encounter but the same comments about the cutscenes because you memorized them 50000 runs ago... that's not so decent.

(And I'm saying this as someone who's *not* running them repeatedly or exclusively - hell, I've had no urge to run them in at least a week and a half, quite honestly probably over two weeks. And I still don't want to go back to the same... two... trials to try to get *any* of my 50s either started or advanced.)

See my Guides and Tutorials

You still get Shards

I can run around the city gathering pennies, but no sane person would view that as making progress towards buying a car.

Oh? But PvP was never 'popular' in this game in the first place.

Part of this is our (the community's) fault. A typical release could go something like this:

This is the rough plan for our next development year! (Long list of stuff) We want to hear what YOU have to say about it! (Hundreds of threads are created overnight grumbling about every detail of the plan) The developers read the grumbling and, in an effort to appease the grumbling masses, change the plan. (New plan creates hundreds of NEW threads with people grumbling about other things). Ad infinitum naseum.

Any time they release tidbits about upcoming material far enough in advance (like a year) to use it for Marketing they get slammed by malcontents who would rather see THEIR fave thing at the top of the list.

IMHO the devs should release a poll for all the players. Make it multiple-choice and leave it on the Load Page for three months. Collect the data and analyze it. Find out what the players REALLY want as opposed to reading the Forums and getting what the verbal 10% of the community crabs about. THEN start making their plans for the next design year.

I hate to take a snippet and I'm not trying to destroy your post.

I love this idea. It takes the player politicking out of the equation. It speeds things up.

This is something that is brilliant and should be implemented -if- and only IF... bases were among the choices. I would love to see the daily results of said polls. That would be an excellent way to see which way the game was headed.

/signed.

I think they have more say about what goes into those articles than you think.

im looking at how they dodge topics related to base editing and I am forced to completely agree with you.

And also the last.

So, after about four-five years in game, lets do a compare;

-Two columns worth of alts, and I STILL haven't finished all the redside and blueside content. I still run into contacts and go 'Wait, who the hell are you? Oooo!'

Versus

-Two/Three Trials. The three, exact same missions, over and over and over and over again with no alternative means. You want any power above Alpha? You have to do trials.

No, picking up shards through other content is NOT an alternative method, because the shard-thread conversion rates are unrealistic and doubly grindy, given how you need 4/5 times as many threads per component as you would shards, and shards drop less than threads do.

I can also do game-mission any manner of different ways. I can ghost them, I can ignore parts and clear others, I can go cackling like a maniac through killing everything, or I can take my time picking off mob by mob to make sure my squishy doesnt fall over. I can do everything as I choose, when I choose, how I choose.

There is no such choice on trials. You do it the certain way, and you do it within the time limit. Or you fail.

Originally Posted by Zwillinger GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.

Originally Posted by Captain_Photon NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.

So around a 4-5 year In game comparison of 2 months?