Discussion: Gamasutra interviews Matt Miller and Nate Birkholz

The members of the team "liked MMOs, but we weren't hardcore MMO players," says Miller. "I wanted to make a MMO that was accessible to me and my friends, where we could have a bunch of stuff to do while we were leveling up that was akin to the things that we were seeing in other games."

Miller agrees. "We have over seven years of content development in this title, right? That is something that brand new competition cannot say, and I dare them to match... The game is built around breadth and having things to do with alts that you haven't done with your main character."

Yep, absolutely nothing here that might lure people into playing. Now, if only they'd mentioned something about upcoming Power Proliferations, or the status of Power Pool Customisation, or the Coming Storm plotline, or [insert thing that you would most like to know about]... *that* would really bring in the new players! I'm just thinking about the health of the game, here.

That almost sounds challenging.

I understand the sarcasm here, I'm just really shocked by the people it mocks :P I've been waiting for an end game for a long time, and when we get it...... people are completely in contempt of it. I really don't think people understand what end game is. It's been two months, yet that's way too long for people. I'm mainly waiting for people to calm down and accecpt the casual changes to the most casual end game I've ever seen.

(That's a casual "suck it up" from someone who hated i13 pvp, and slowly waited for "end game" :P)

I also hope in a year, every solo options been used and we can all lol@ this together.

I think it's a bit of culture shock.
For seven years, CoH has had a very strong culture of alt-ism. People have gotten accustomed to being able to "finish" a character, and now we're being thrown a system that precludes ever finishing any one character by its very nature. So now you have folks that have a long list of 50's, and they love every single one of them (or at least several of them) and they want to see those 50's advance since there is now an option for them to do so.

From what I gather (I refuse to touch the trials, so I don't know for sure), it is possible to do that (advance all your 50's). I think I remember someone saying that a dedicated month of playing Trials will get a character "caught up" in terms of all the currently available slots. But here's where the really nasty part (for some of us) comes in: the trials are the only way to go.

Prior to now, if I wanted to outfit a 50 I had a variety of options open to me. Farm solo, run TF's, Ouroboros, AE, Marketeering, PvP and a few things I'm sure I'm forgetting. Heck, I could even run an alt and funnel recipe drops from him to that 50 I'm working on. With the Incarnate System there is one viable option. Now you could say this is normal for end game systems, and you'd be right. But it's not what a lot of us have come to expect from CoH: options.

When it first became apparent this was the route the Devs were taking, some people voiced concerns over this. They were essentially told by the community to sit down and shut up. So it went from concern to outright frustration and active distaste for some people because the topic became more and more heated over time.

At this point I personally believe the only thing that is going to defuse this ongoing argument is for the Devs to come right out and say definitively that they are working on a viable solo progression path. Not looking into, not thinking about, but that it will happen. I don't think anyone is seriously expecting a timeline for such a thing, just some reassurance that it's coming. Instead all we're being fed is marketing speak, which has sadly become the norm for any communication from the Devs. Well, they could also come right out and say that it won't happen, but that would lead to some highly ticked off customers and probably more than a few cancellations, which I think we can all agree is never a good thing for an MMO.

Seven years of content that was all viable for the Alpha slot.

Why was that not the case for the other slots? Why, specifically, gate all meaningful progress to only three things in the entire game?

Edit: See above, Steel Shaman's post is a very good one.

Originally Posted by Zwillinger GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.

Originally Posted by Captain_Photon NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.

The new Glimmer Armor that's unlocked by running the Dark Tunnel Trial?

Asked and answered many times. The intent of the incarnate system and the end game was to add power progression on top of the standard game. They could have added combat levels above level 50 but that is problematic for a lot of reasons and they simply were not going to do it. But adding progression with power to level 50 meant the standard content, which is balanced around a different level of power, would become too easily trivialized. The end game was going to revolve around a package of power that could be unlocked and content designed to a higher power standard that players could meaningfully build power to match.

Its the Alpha slot itself that is the anomaly, not the rest of the end game. Originally, it was going to be like the rest of the slots. It was in I18 during the aborted sneak peak that the devs realized providing a sneak peak of a slot that was connected primarily to content not part of the sneak peak itself wasn't going to work (although just saying it out loud makes me wonder, as it did then). The devs decided to repurpose Alpha into a "bridge slot" that would straddle the boundary between the standard content and the end game content: you would be able to unlock and progress in Alpha completely in standard content, and that would be the entree into the Incarnate system proper.

Why not just make *all* the slots that way? Fundamentally speaking, that's just not an option. If you're just going to add more standard content, there's no point to the incarnate system. Its just stupidly broken power added to the standard content. Its bordering on stupidly broken power when its used in the standard content. Just like we would never have gotten an invention system with ED, no matter how people try to twist an argument that suggests we could have, we would have never gotten an incarnate system without it being tied to incarnate content. Its just that simple.

Why add it at all? Same reason the invention system was added. Its for the people that want it. The people that don't want it are free to ignore it. Frankly, I think the real fear some players have is not that most players hate the incarnate system and the trials, but rather that its becoming clear more players *like* the incarnate system and the trials. The invention system was optional not just by dev fiat and not just because the standard content wasn't balanced around it, but because most players simply do not min/max around the invention system, so the average benefit from it is small. Someone who chooses to ignore the invention system isn't at a huge power disadvantage to the average player, because the average player doesn't have a lot of invention strength either. But the worry is that completely ignoring the Incarnate system won't be that way, because far more players are availing themselves of it, and perfectly willing run the trials to get it.

In any event, Alpha is a compromise. The incarnate system was always going to be connected to incarnate-class content: that is precisely what the devs mean when they talk about this game having an end game at all. Its not an accident that Alpha is connected to the standard content with the shard system and the rest of the slots are connected to the incarnate content with the thread system. It is as far as the devs are willing to go, and frankly as far as they should go in connecting standard content to the entirety of the incarnate system.

Very well said. Really when I read that interview, I couldn't help but think that positron was a gm who had begun to resent the players finding ways to enjoy the game in ways he hadn't anticipated. The solution lock it down so they can't.

Yes because an extreme break with existing content was mandated. Its amazing what reason can do when you work from a faulty premise.

Originally Posted by Zwillinger GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.

Originally Posted by Captain_Photon NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.

The question asked was why is Alpha different. The answer is that its contrary to the intent of the end game. The question you're asking and answering yourself is "why was the end game mandated" and the answer is "it wasn't:" its addition was mostly voluntary on the part of the devs to address the lack of an end game which some players wanted. The fact that not everyone would like it or need it is a fact that is true for everything they add to the game and isn't an automatic disqualifier for any addition.


You should stop using logic: you're going to hurt yourself if you keep holding the pointy end.

At least I don't use it for deceit.

Anyway Back to the mandate for different greater powers requiring different currencies and different systems to obtain that is just pure stupidity. The new abilities could still have used shards and simply be made costlier.

You see how reason when you try to consider other possibilities instead of assuming the conclusion then twisting yourself into a pretzel to make it right ?

Of course it has: its essentially giving away a free lunch: far less people complain about free lunches than higher difficulty even if the higher difficulty makes more sense and the free lunch is game breaking. That doesn't mean the Alpha model was sustainable.

But the criticism of Alpha is two-fold: first, like any new system it draws complaints from people that don't like different aspects of what is new: it relies on task force content more, the solo path is much less rewarding, being both solo *and* at low difficulty can make progress exceedingly slow. But the other criticism of Alpha is that, especially in combination with the other slots but even before they were released, it markedly trivializes standard content. Level shift is so game-breaking to allow in standard content I'm actually surprised the devs did it. It borders on a geko decimal place error. This criticism is far more insidious because it points to the sort of thing that can cause irreparable damage to the game in a way adding grindy trials cannot. You can always avoid the trials. But fundamentally speaking, you cannot hand players far more power than they need and tell them not to use it. That's game design suicide. And most people affected by this problem won't complain about it. They'll just get bored and quit. And yes, people who propel themselves into obsessing over the trials can quit in frustration as well, but that's a far smaller percentage of the players.


You're touching on a dichotomy that caused a significant amount of tension in I18 and still exists to a certain extent to this day. The reason why the Alpha preview was pulled basically came down to this very thing: some players made the argument that if Alpha was supposed to be connected to incarnate content and it wasn't, and the shard system itself was half-baked, releasing it early was nonsensical. It would only frustrate players like yourself that don't like things released piece-meal like that, especially when the devs are limited in what they can discuss about downstream content.

A *lot* of other players were angry by the delay, because their argument was this: delaying it means taking away the opportunity to play the system incomplete from those willing to play an incomplete system, just to placate people who would get annoyed by a system that they refused - voluntarily - to play.

The devs have to pick an arbitrary balance point between these two perspectives because they are irreconcilable. MMO development by its very nature has some piecemeal incremental aspect to it, and you will not get to see the entire system all at once and you will not be privy to the devs complete roadmaps. That's not just non-negotiable, that's an absolute. What you do get might not be enough: probably won't be enough for some players. Conversely, other players will tire of waiting too long for things to release: in batching things up and trying to make bundles of content that work together, they will lose players that would rather have things released as soon as possible, as often as possible.


Trust me: by the time Issue 21 comes around, some of your concerns will be addressed and you'll have all new even bigger concerns. I think, given the trajectory of the devs actually going all the way back to the NCSoft buyout, but especially more recently, that's going to become the norm.

Honestly I would have preferred if they just dropped shards and converted everything to threads. It might have saved development time.

Also haven't seen anything that's convinced me letting folks do other all types of content would have jeopardized the incarnate trials. The devs have lockout timers which they could use (and have with the Notice of the Well) to make sure that doesn't happen.

I love the trials, I simply DO NOT AGREE in any shape or form that having only two missions be the only Team-based way to advance was a good idea.

Or they could simply use the lockout timer system to allow Tin Mage/Apex to drop an Emp merit ONCE per day on completion. Or once every 48 hours if folks are so concerned about our precious trials not being played.

I do not agree that they needed to lock progression of the further slots behind just two missions. Three coming in I20.5.

That single point both encourages me and terrifies me at the same time...

Still, thanks for the reply, Arcana. It's genuinely nice to get an unbiased, detailed and well laid out reply.
It helps it's from freaking Arcanaville, the numbers guru and official unofficial Dev-botherer

Originally Posted by Zwillinger GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.

Originally Posted by Captain_Photon NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.

Shards fall, everyone dies?

HAHA

What a great way to use the term "FREE LUNCH", Its a free lunch you pay for on a subscription plan or by time card, had to buy an expansion for, and then had to accomplish tasks and jump through hoops to actually get. Is there any way it could be less of a "FREE LUNCH" ?


That would be the same way the leveling up model isn't sustainable past 50, 80, 335 (pick a number).

I don't have any problems per se with having Tin Mage and Apex drop empyrean merits: they are scaled to difficulty levels comparable to the trials even if they are scaled for smaller sized leagues (i.e. a single team). But that doesn't really address the issue, because the issue isn't between having fewer content and more content that gates the higher parts of the incarnate system, its whether standard content should be allowed to generate rewards directly into the higher parts of the incarnate system beyond the current shard system. And I think that would be dangerous without very strict gating. TM and Apex are most certainly not standard difficulty content.

Although, since I've proposed several ways to leverage *some* standard content with very strict gates**, I'm also not opposed to the idea. But even that side-steps the problem: the standard content gates would have to be balanced around the existence of and the reward earning rates of the trials themselves, and could not replace them.


** Extremely strict: for example awarding empyrean merits for completing certain story arcs, but only for the mission holder and only for the first time completion, whether through the original contact or through Ouroboros.

Yep. My only point was that the devs DID NOT have to stick advancement of the next four slots behind two trials. I think we all KNOW the WHYs of it, but disagree that it was necessary.

I and some others have suggested an Incarnate mode for some of the level 50s tfs. I think it would easier to scale some tfs to have lvl 54 mobs and add an emp-once-a-day on completion timer for some of them, than it would be to build all new solo and team Incarnate level content.

My point is I can EASILY keep going on ideas that DO NOT lock the advancement of the four slots behind just two trials. It's not hard. It was simply a choice they made cause they were afraid folks would abandon the trials if they had an easier path . . . except that fails in the face of the devs having TIMER LOCKOUT mechanisms that would FORCE people to have to do the trials eventually to advance.

I get their design intent, I completely disagree with it (and this is coming from someone who LOVES the trials, even though I've taken a break to stop burnout) and feel it might have prevented grind burnout had they considered adding other more feasible methods at the start.

Thankfully they seem to be getting it now, with their recent statements, the change to the rewards of the Tin Mage and Apex, and the Notice of the Well conversion option. Better late than never.

See, I was kind of with you on this. But then I got to thinking.

Remember when levels 41-50 were released for CoH, and later for CoV? And how each of them was a whole new zone, and two tiers of contacts in that zone, each with storyarcs (very long and AV-filled storyarcs for CoH, somewhat shorter for CoV), and CoV also had the epic story tied to choosing a Patron and receiving that power pool?

And now we have four slots which are, time-wise, a much large investment than 41-50... and the only way to advance them (let's be honest, shards -> threads is not any sort of Incarnate advancement mechanism) is two Trials. Awesome Trials, to be sure, but... there's only two. And you have to play them a whole lot.

I mean, if the whole 41-50 game was just two things that you had to repeat a whole bunch of times and could only do on a team, I don't think many people would ever bother reaching 50. And even if the two things were *masterpieces* technology-wise, it wouldn't be a very good design.

I think the Devs messed up the balance of Quality vs. Quantity a little. The Quality is great (technology-wise, at least, the issues with the writing are well-documented), but the Quantity is somewhat lacking. Look at the RWZ: a whole zone with a four-part storyarc (can be done solo or in a group, over many days at one's leisure), repeatable missions (easy but slow source of shinies), a Task Force (suitably epic, following on the storyarc but not required) and a Raid (best source of shinies, easy to put together, feeling chaotic and action-packed). That, I think, would be a good model for Incarnate content.

That's a limitation of the incremental release model of MMOs, and I addressed it in my response to Techbot Alpha. It might have been better to release the incarnate system only when there was a critical mass of incarnate-dedicated content for it, but then you'd be waiting for a year or more for it. Some players say sure, if it doesn't have enough content to satisfy then, then make everyone wait. But other players say no, release what you can when you can, and if people don't want to play it when it doesn't have enough content then *they* can wait until that content exists. Usually, these two player philosophies do not come into direct conflict because rarely are players aware of delays: they can't miss what they don't know they are missing. But these two philosophies went head to head without resolution in I18 when the delay became visible, when the devs announced their intention to pull back the Alpha slot.

Even though Alpha would have *no* content associated with it, and *no* way to do anything but grind kills or standard task forces to unlock and slot it, many players preferred to have it anyway: people who didn't like grinding could simply wait for other content to arrive. Other players felt releasing it that way would give Alpha a bad name by directly connecting it with kill-grinding if there was literally no new content associated with it. I was actually one of those players.

The problem in my opinion was releasing two trials and four slots. I don't know who decided to do that, but that was very, very wrong. In fact, Alpha was released in two parts: tier 1/2 first, and tier 3/4 second. The highest cost Alpha component wasn't dangled in front of the players initially, although everyone knew they were coming. That's another reason Alpha didn't cause instant sticker shock like the other slots did.

But that doesn't mean I'm going to compound one mistake with another and try to fix the lack of incarnate content by shoving the standard content into the incarnate reward system. That would be trying to fix a stupid hole by digging deeper with a stupid shovel.