Today's Dev Chat Highlights

Thanks for making this clear! It's a bit complicated to describe but it makes sense now and I can actually see how what you said earlier today, what was said in the uStream AND what is written in the press release are all actually true at the same time--even though it initially seemed to be contradictory information!

Again thanks for taking the time.

Thanks for the clarification! This is even better than I thought!

Though, I, too, wonder why you just don't make them an automatic account unlock? Just like the pieces from the booster packs?

Because, if you have to claim them from gleemail, then they won't be available at the character creator for new alts. This means, you'll have to create the alt. Get into the game. Claim the certificate. Then visit a tailor at level 1.


Woohoo! Excellent reward!!!!

I'm not telling you how to play the game or how to have fun. I'm explaining to you why the developers don't just give everyone everything immediately or trivially easily and make people work for it.

Here's a nice visual illustration of the idea:



Maybe you're different, but it's kinda sounding like you're not. Even if so, this chart is pretty representative of your average naked ape. I'll point out yet again that I am not saying that running 40 trials in a row is fun. It's a mind-numbing exercise in tedium. What you seem to keep missing, though, is that if it takes you 40 trials to earn something, this was never the intention of the developers to be what you have to go through. If, however, you run two trials per week over the course of less than four months, you get your shinies without that mind-numbing tedium. Why that's so difficult for people to get is beyond me.

If you like running 40 trials in a row, knock yourself out; hey, that's more chances for me to jump on a team. If you don't, then forcing yourself to is sheer insanity. I'm not saying don't do it, but I am saying that your complaints really aren't terribly compelling.

You guys seem interested in making auras and capes no longer be level-locked then. That's a good thing. So why not just do it? Why tie it specifically to the Incarnate system? What's the thought process behind requiring someone to participate in that system for something this big?

Punishment - they're out to get you - and not just any old soloer - they're out to get you.

This seems... Maybe it's just the description that seems very roundabout. The vouchers are straightforward as far as being - well, essentially "You've emailed something to yourself." The certificates - how many can these possibly have, and do they count against the email limit? (Not that I've hit that, but I do know people who have an *awful* lot of email sent to themselves.)

Just sounds like taking ten steps to move over a foot. But it might be the description not clicking, or something technical, admittedly .

Not just you. Chrome, here, did much the same - video didn't stop, but I couldn't pause, etc. It was the "Create your own hero" ad (ironically enough) every single time.

See my Guides and Tutorials

I didn't go "Yay, I have these auras." Then a few weeks later think "Oh. This is boring." when I got the Origin booster pack.

I care very much about making cool costumes for my characters, and sod all about trials. No, I don't care sod all, I'm into negative caring. Which is hate.

This places me in the camp where if I want the cool new auras added free to the game, I have to do trials.

Problem is, I don't want to do trials.

This kind of reward doesn't make me go "Oh yay, I'll do some trials so I can get stuff to look cool." (And I am not talking about the Ascension Armour, I'm talking about the auras.) It makes me go "******* hell I have to do this ***** trial to unlock these things."

So, after paying about, £65 to the game in terms of booster packs and upgrades to make my characters look better, I now have a whole selection of cool new auras done by the FX team that are going to be utterly, utterly painful to unlock.

And I know they're there. I'll see people wearing them. And it will eat into my fun.

Yes, I'm a little bit nuts about this, I know.

So, how about this?

Paragon Studios, I will pay you the princely sum of £10, no, £20 pounds, for the following:

Cape and Aura Unlock from Level 1
The Auras bought from Incarnate Trials
The Emotes and Costume Changes.

And you can spend that money however you wish. Back on your end-game, on the art team, or even just on nerf guns for the office.

That means I'm happy, you're £20 better off, and people are happy that I'm not clogging up their iTrials with my low performance.

-
SUPPORT - IT'S NOT JUST A GROUPING OF ATs
-
More Than a Game
-

Let me explain it to you then: it makes people feel that any time they spend playing that is not spent in trials is wasted. People also feel, with some historical justification, that if they don't, so to speak, "get on the bus" RITE NAO they're going to be left behind.

You are attempting to argue that your subjective position on how the game is best enjoyed is superior to someone else's. The problems with this are left as an exercise for the reader. Furthermore you have (evidently) not considered that while your underlying thesis (that instant gratification is bad) might be true, it is entirely possible that a) your adversary is not asking for instant gratification and b) the specific path the developers have taken in this case just might not have been such a good idea after all.

^/Signed

Originally Posted by Zwillinger GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.

Originally Posted by Captain_Photon NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.

Dissapointment rather than rage.

Not even account-wide, just one character. What a horrible idea.

Just get rid of the capes at lvl 20 and auras at lvl 30 restriction completely. It was stupid to begin with, and stupid now.

You've been walking it back, with cape's and auras we can purchase and use at lvl 1. You want a good quality of life buff? Finally do it completely, and allow all capes and auras at lvl 1. Don't make people pay for it. CoX still gets mocked because new players can't wear capes at lvl 1.

lol.

I think people get it, but when you have a game where most players have severe altitis and/or limited playtime there is always a rush to grind for rewards on one toon so they can move to the next. I have a feeling if players only had one, maybe two toons this wouldn't be an issue.

THIS!

How many slots can you have per server? And how long have we had to fill them all?

Exactly.

I mean this game isn't like the 100 pound gorilla of the MMO market where you've got a max of eight characters on your home server.

No, psychological studies actually back this up, and it's pretty durn easy to test objectively. Everyone is different, but collectively, it's not so hard to predict what a large group of people--such as, say, a game's player base--is like. While the exact execution of the principle of long-term rewards can be screwed up, and not everything they do will make you personally happy, the principle is valid. Why do you think that almost every game follows that formula or a quick shot of lots of rewards when starting out, followed by a decreasing, but generally escalating, stream of rewards as you move into the medium- and long-term game?

I still think you're missing the point. The devs want to have long-term rewards in the game. You and others keep arguing that nothing should be gated behind long-term goals. "I'm not saying nothing," you might say, but if not this, then what? When badges are gated, people gripe. When enhancements (purple IOs) are gated, people gripe. When powers are gated (Incarnates), people gripe. When things that don't even affect your gameplay are gated such as costumes and auras, you guessed it... Gripe. So yeah, basically, you're arguing that nothing should be gated.

"Oh, but what I meant is that it shouldn't be gated behind this," you're probably thinking. If not this, then what? When they give a path through collecting stuff that takes a long time (because these are long-term goals, remember?), people gripe. Would you be happier if they gated it behind AE? I can guarantee you that if they figured out about how many tickets you'd have to collect so that it would take an average player a couple of months or so to earn it, we'd be right back where we are now with the people trying to earn it all in three days complaining about how it's a slap in the face.

I'm not stupid, and I'm not immune to wanting everything RIGHT THIS SECOND!!! But I also want to be having fun three months from now after the initial excitement has died down and we may still be a few months out from the next issue release. You think you're different and that you could handle having everything piled on you at once without getting bored quickly? Most people do; such is the diabolical nature of desire. But as arrogant as you think it is, this really is a case of the devs knowing better than you how to make you happy in the long term.

Are you by any chance a parent? If so, you ought to already know this. When your kid wants a new game or toy, do you always immediately run right out and buy it for them? Hopefully, even if you're financially able to do that, you don't. Hopefully you understand that doing so leads to having a privileged little snot who thinks he or she is entitled to have every whim satisfied immediately, and worse, that it won't be long before your little snot's expectations will exceed your resources even if you're rich as Bill Gates. When that little snot gets older, he or she will inevitably go out and try to get all the goodies up front. The big snot will end up saddled with thousands in credit card debt, or worse, end up in jail for stealing or getting into drugs or whatever. Instead, hopefully you're raising your kids to know that sometimes you have to wait and work for the good stuff.

And all too often, these forums remind me of a bunch of screaming kids. "If you loved us, you would let us have it!" "That's not fair!" "You don't even know anything about me!" "I'm going to run away!" (Note, this isn't meant to say you can't criticize the game; I'm referring to the tone of the posts.)

A 100 pound gorilla?

Exactly Madam/Sir

You might want to post this in the ongoing disscusstion over in the discussion section.

I trust psychology, as a field, slightly less than I would trust, say, a three-dollar bill.

Oh, and "giving people what they want in an MMO will turn your kids into drug addicts" is probably the wildest slippery slope argument we've had here in a while, and that's saying something.

I'm a Vet that just returned to the game, after leaving in April 2010. Thanks for the Steam sale on GR, btw!

Anyway, I left due to the birth of a new baby, combined with an expansion to my RPG publishing company. I just didn't have time for MMOs.

In January 2011, time returned. Initially, I tried DCUO, and then moved over to CO. Now, I'm not here to talk about the merits or flaws of any of their designs, except in one instance--

Both games allow capes as part of the costume creator from the very beginning. No unlock, no level requirement, none of that for something as iconic to the super-hero genre as capes.

Now, I understand why CoH had the gate requirement 7 years ago. I well remember the Devs talking about how-- in the pre-launch development, and even for a time afterward-- capes were extremely difficult to animate correctly under the CoH engine. I got that, I understood that. It made sense. You guys even went as far as to tie their introduction into the lore (Hero-1) and make it a story reason as to the level 20 requirement.

But . . . ummmm . . . didn't he already come back as a bad guy in the Ritki stuff?

Anyway, it seems that even lore-wise, the reason seems far less valid. Given that it is now 2011, it also seems less valid to keep them as a level 20 unlock.

There is just no reason capes should not be unlocked as a basic character creator option. None. This is even more on point, for my personal feelings, when you consider the Level 20 unlock now for Epic Achetypes.

So, you guys can reduce their level gate by 30 levels, but want to tie capes for early unlock into trials that people aren't really interested in, in the first place?

Again . . . what is the valid reason for capes to not now be a basic part of the costume creator?

Special wings, rocket boots, and things like that are tied to the invention system. Okay, fine. But basic capes are tied to level 20 (and a not so fun mission chain), or might be early unlocked if you run the, so called, raids? I could understand that mentality from the company that just released a super-hero MMO 5 months ago (won't mention names), but from Paragon Studios-- who has continued setting the bar for the super-hero MMO genre, and whose 7 year old game is still superior to the two competitors in many ways-- why are capes not basic by this point?

What is the Dev/Marketing reason?

Uh, why? Do you think all psychologists are lying when they say that most people will respond in a similar way when given a certain stimulus? You don't believe that? You wouldn't run away from a falling building? You wouldn't get a negative emotional response if someone punched you? You wouldn't feel jilted if you were somehow slighted, which by the way is exactly what you're doing now? Cuz Psychology backs all that up and offers possible reasons for why we feel the way we do about things. Unless you're Autistic or have Aspergers or something.

And then you go on to ignore the rest of his post, which actually brings up a few good points. The reasoning behind leveling curves in MMOs is to give people a feeling of accomplishment and keep them playing longer. That's psychology.

That's Ma'am. Or "Zortel, Queen of the Universe" to you

The issue has started to become the fact that the devs said there would be other paths to getting the incarnate level stuff rather than just the trials (but slower.) What's happening is that more and more stuff is being shuffled out of THAt path, and into the "must do trials" path. Which is a problem.

You do realize that issues/features are planned out a loooong time in advance, right? If someone requests something TODAY, it won't make it into the game for at -least- a year.

So the devs made some raids. They are currently working on more raids. When the raids came out a few months ago, people asked for a solo path. Suddenly, the devs had 2 choices: ignore those pleads, or pull off half their programing/scripting/art/fx team to make solo content and not only slow down the raids from coming out, but the solo content is going to come along slower anyways.

Look, Endgame/large group content is something CoH has never had in abundance. People asked and asked and asked, and when compared to the 1000-pound gorilla, people would be like "Play THAT game, CoH doesn't have an endgame". And this whole incarnate/endgame system has been Positron's pet-project for a while now. And you want them to stop? Pffft, good luck with that.

I'm sure they WILL have some solo-way of gaining the new shinies, but it won't be for a while.

oh, and btw: expect any "solo" incarnate content to be harder than the storyarc that unlocks Alpha... you know, the one with Trapdoor that no one seems to be able to beat by themselves anyway? (I can, i'm just making fun of everyone else) And then, when you come back to complain that it isn't easy enough, I'll have to reach through my monitor and... knock it over and hopefully not break it =(