Today's Dev Chat Highlights

They're removing everything in the game except for those two trials?

That's news to me.

Wow, that's going to SUCK for those people who don't have a level 50, or might want to play something that isn't level 50.

The way you're talking here, NOTHING in the game other than Incarnate stuff is considered viable content anymore. So, that Posi TF I ran last night is no longer content? The Hollows arc I just finished up isn't content either? I can't go do the Freaklympics because it isn't content?

Do you READ what you type?

Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately.

Highlighted the important bit there.

Yes, new content announced SINCE NOVEMBER has revolved around Incarnate content.

Why? Because it's the newest thing they have introduced and it is NOT DONE YET.

November to June is 7 months.

April 2004 to June 2011 is 86 months.

People are complaining that 7 months out of 86 have been spent on something they are not thrilled about. And furthermore, they are demanding that they be given what they want now, instead of what the game has been focused on.

There have been many threats of ragequitting, and in general people have been absolute jacktards because the devs DARED to spend a WHOLE 7 MONTHS on something other than what THEY want.

Not sure if you're aware of this or not, but that is pretty much the definition of the term "self-entitlement".

Would you be happy if the "end game" was EXACTLY the same as everything else that has ever been introduced to the game for 7 years? Do you want more TFs that can be reduced to "get through the map as fast as possible, tank and spank the end boss, collect rewards"?

If the end game is no different than what came before it, does it really deserve to be CALLED an end game? Or is it just more of the exact same stuff we've been doing for 7 years now?

You know why I don't really like the band AC/DC that much? It's because every single song they've ever written would not sound out of place on any other album they've ever released. When I hear AC/DC on the radio, I can't tell if it's a new song, or a song written 30 years ago. I don't ever want to ask the question "Is this a NEW TF, or has it been in the game for 7 years?" when it comes to CoHs content.

This may come as a shock, but when a game reaches a certain age, it starts to get VERY stale if nothing new is ever introduced to it. If this game were the same game in every way that I first logged into 5 years ago, I am sure I would have gotten bored and moved on by now.

So, why are so many people of the opinion that changing ANYTHING is a bad thing? Do this many people really WANT CoH to never ever ever offer ANY kind of NEW gameplay experiences?

Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately.

You know, this sounds EXACTLY like me, just about 5 or 6 weeks ago. I play mostly solo, with 2 days a week being SG night where I play with 4-6 others. We have trouble getting into 8-person Taskforces because we can't scare up the 8 people at once to start them with and all of us have had VERY poor experiences with Pick Up Groups. VERY POOR.

Then, because I wanted to play the new content, and I was tired of grinding Incarnate Shards by playing Boria missions, (This was before the patch that let shards drop more places with more varied content properly. If you can call the drop rate 'proper') I went to Pocket D on Guardian server with my favorite Level 50. And tried playing in this BAF and Lambda thing. With strangers.

And you know what? Some of the other players on my server are really good people. Intelligent, caring, supportive and they play the game well. They are even helpful with new folks trying out things. I would NEVER have learned about these other people were it not for the Incarnate Trials. And often these things can actually be FUN with these former strangers.

I still do my little SG nights. That's still my prefered way to play. But these 'raids' are NOT the big evil. Really they are not. And the devs HAVE promised OTHER paths... down the road. But NOT in Issue 20 (or 20.5). And possibly not much in issue 21. Though that is subject to change as things go through beta and they design said items.

Paragon Studios is NOT some big huge factory of programmers and artists that can churn out new code and items instantly for things. The things we are experiencing now are things that they had been working on for years to bring to us. And there are other things that they have been working on for less time that won't get to us until they are done.

We've had 6.5 years of things that have been mostly focused on the 50 levels of game play. Going Rogue was STRONGLY focused on bringing us another starting 20 levels of game play. And if you have played that, you will notice it was heavily balanced for solo'ing and small group play. Take a 8-man team of players through it and it breaks and goes by almost in a flash, without really seeing much of the content.

We've had, now, 0.5 years (if you really stretch the concept) of post-50 play. Compare it to that 6.5 years of content for solo and small-group play. That small-group and solo play hasn't gone away. It's still there. The post-50 play is OPTIONAL. You don't have to do it, If you DO do it, you don't have to do it often.

Oh, and you and your small group of friends, can team up in a team with your 50's, go to wherever the Incarnate players gather for going on trials, and ask, 'Got room for 5? My team would like to play this stuff, can we join you?' and try it out as a team inside that larger group of players. Who knows, you may meet some more folks to game with.

Just one solo'er/small-group-of-friends player's opinion.

I have to ask what there is to maintain (the badges database is fairly stable) and what set up (no separate permissions/committees needed to make an entry for the hidden badges) would take longer for a placeholder badge. I'm guessing you must think that each placeholder needs artwork or something like that. They don't.

Do you have any shred of evidence at all that the global badges check the MA system?

If it were stored with the MA system, then one thing that I've observed wouldn't be happening. Every so often my newer characters will not be awarded the Early Bird badge even though I've did many "first looks" at AE arcs. This usually happens with a server reset and will not start awarding again until I run another AE arc for Early Bird.

Now the same thing sometimes (not all the time) with the fact that a player couldn't make a Kheldian or VEAT. The solution was to log into a 50 and it would let the servers remember that you've unlocked them account wide. The same thing happened when you got onto the Test Server, and you had to log into a level 50 (now 20s for those that haven't done it before) there to unlock the Epic ATs there. Again, this is an example of something in-game affecting your account.

I'd agree, and there are several things that unlock account wide, predating the Global Email System and MA. In fact, they could make a Incarnate AT reward if they used the same account trigger they used for the HEATs and VEATs.

Except that the In-game-earned problem was solved with the MA. Additionally, Paragon Studios is owned by NCsoft, not a separate entity.

Triumph: White Succubus: 50 Ill/Emp/PF Snow Globe: 50 Ice/FF/Ice Strobe: 50 PB Shi Otomi: 50 Ninja/Ninjistu/GW Stalker My other characters

I'm glad that there are no badges for trading incarnate merits for rewards. That would of been a poor way to do it imo.
This way I dont feel as much need to get them all

Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately.

If there already is a global-level badge database, none. But for certificates to make the most sense (with the information we have available) there wouldn't currently be such a database.

No, but there's no evidence to the contrary, either. So I will make an assumption that best leads to the decision we have seen (to develop a spin-off of email attachments) than the one that assumes they ignored an already sufficient, available feature (which I don't see conclusive evidence of existing, either).

That does increase the likelihood of a versatile global unlocks database existing (a finicky one, though). We still don't know, for certain, what the actual trigger is, we only know the trigger that we are supposed to perceive.

Being a subsidiary doesn't mean they get to access the parent's property whenever/however they want. Account-managing staff (regarding things like subscriptions and purchased boosters) is from NCSoft. We've got emails from them saying what they can do from their end, and what Paragon service staff can do on that end, and what normally can't be done because it'd require modifying an account at both ends simultaneously.

I hope you don't think I'm being difficult; as I hope I've been making clear, without incontrovertible proof one way or the other, I think there's still the possibility that it's for the reasons I've proposed. There may instead be non-technical reasons for creating certificates that haven't been shared with us, but I think that'd be a less interesting discussion.

The way people are behaving in-game, for the most part it isn't. Finding a group for anything that doesn't involve the Incarnate system is at best an uphill battle.

Eh? Yesterday I did three TF's (Tin Mage, which I guess is Incarnate, Treespec, Mender Silos TF) I've had no problems finding eg. people to do tip missions either (not to mention the chatter of people whining for AE farms, or looking for badging teams)

And mind, I'm a european on american servers.

I've been having no trouble at all finding teams to do other stuff.

Truth be told, people on my server are getting bored with the Incarnate trials. It's easier to put together a TFC TF than it is a BAF or Lambda right now.

Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately.

Or ignore those "costumes" (and I use the term loosely) completely.

Depends on your server.

It is an interesting discussion. For all I know you might be right on the reasons for using the email system. I just don't think you are right about which system (email, MA, or the global account) controls the global badge unlocks. It is more likely stored just below the master account level in the game account (which the developers should have access to).

Triumph: White Succubus: 50 Ill/Emp/PF Snow Globe: 50 Ice/FF/Ice Strobe: 50 PB Shi Otomi: 50 Ninja/Ninjistu/GW Stalker My other characters

November is when Issue 19 came out, and that's when the Incarnate push began. The additions before that were in August, when Going Rogue came out, and that was not free. I've been here seven years and I think I've got a handle on the pace at which Paragon works. Issue 20.5 might be out by this August, but Issue 21 and whatever it holds will not be done and released in two months, too. If we're lucky, maybe October-November. That means it will probably be at a year or more between releases of free non-Incarnate-focused content.

Again, I don't see anybody in any of these threads demanding anything immediately. Rather, they are trying to see where the game is headed and the long-term view is extremely unclear. A year with low amounts of free content for them late in a game's lifecycle is worrisome. The silence from Paragon is killer. They would like some reassurance of something coming down the road. You can do that without dropping content on to live servers. A press release and a couple of screencaps, just as they sent me over the edge from longtime passive observer to pissed-off customer last week, will also work wonders for morale.

Again, you can blame Paragon for spoiling us. Bad, bad, Paragon.

This may come as a shock, but some people don't see the need for an endgame in MMOs at all. Personally, I think it's kind of absurd to demand that kind of resolution in an open-ended game. Players will grind through it, get to the "end," the developers will create more endgame content, and then knock players down a few pegs with some kind of contrived story about an even *greater* threat than the last (at least, that's how they do it in that really popular fantasy MMORPG). So, back to the grind again.

As there was no compelling reason presented by the game content to pursue the Incarnate level of power, and no moronic lore reason to explain running anything multiple times, it was very easy to ignore the Incarnate System and its forced teaming until last week, when further rewards got arbitrarily tied up in the system. What's the reasoning behind Incarnates being the only ones who can fart rainbows when they fly and run with lightning shooting out of their toes? The Well of Furies manifests itself in mysterious ways...

Second, to borrow your AC/DC analogy, I think if I wanted to hear Black Sabbath, I wouldn't hope for seven years that AC/DC would start sounding like Black Sabbath and would instead go listen to Black Sabbath. How important was high-end game progression in this game prior to late 2010? As of June 2011, the level cap will have been raised one time, seven years ago with Issue 1. The rest of CoH's endgame is about six years late. If you really wanted a raiding-style endgame, just as if you really wanted PVP, CoH wasn't the place to find it and you might have been better off moving on years ago. There were plenty of other games that would fit your needs with fleshed-out systems that would have you praying that nobody ninja'ed your hard-earned loot years before CoH had the Incarnate System. (I thought the loot-less, non-raiding environment of CoH was actually a really nice change of pace for several years.)

Finally, it's not about resisting new gameplay experiences. The game has seen plenty of gameplay changes over the years, all of which were wonderfully voluntary, so you could take them or leave them. It's when the voluntary starts to become compulsory that problems arise.

1) Look at the sheer number of missions added just prior to the Incarnates, and look at the content provided in any of the prior years. Yes, they frontloaded a bunch of it, and much of it is gated for content, but they really did drop a boatload of content at non-incarnate stuff before focusing on Incarnates. About the closest you can come in comparison is counting the "police radio" insta-stories, which tips have several orders of magnitude improvement on.

2) Using Issue 19 as the start of the "endgame system" isn't really very accurate. While the SUBJECT MATTER was "Incarnates," it was presented in content that was much more CoH-standard (essentially just solo quests and task forces-- there were also two lower-level story arcs as well). If your gripe is that you don't like the incarnate plot and would prefer content that didn't deal with the near-godlike power at the level cap, you'd have a valid point.

If your gripe was about introducing new GAME MECHANICS and the endgame "raid" trial system, then the clock starts April 5, 2011... not even two months ago. (and that issue, too, had two non-incarnate lower-level task/strike forces)

You'd have to be in the came of everything "goatee universe" is a waste of resources (I've heard as much from many people) and, thus, all Incarnate stuff (so far Praetoria-related) is by default, then you may count the August release of going rogue as your starting point.

3) Rethink your timetable. The "point fives" didn't really slow the "3 issues/year" setup for CoH MUCH:
Issue 18: August 17, 2010
Issue 19: November 30, 2010.
Issue 19.5: February 1, 2011
Issue 20: April 5, 2011
Issue 20.5: -- A mid-June release would be comparable with the schedule AND the announcement schedule they used for 19.5
Issue 21: -- A mid-August release would be comparable with the schedule.

I know from experience, that just because it was recorded, doesn't mean anyone will get a chance to go back and watch it. Taking notes during the chat works better.

You want to split hairs that fine, you go right ahead. I'm not. We all decide for ourselves which issues are worth it and which are not.

It is possible to dislike the Incarnate System without disliking all things goatee universe. I really like Praetoria. Ive been making Praetorian-themed counterparts for my heroes for years now.

That endgame trial lore is wrapped up in Praetoria does seem a bit contrived. Incarnate wannabes will be leaving their world, Primal Earth, with its higher quantity of known Incarnates to knock heads with non-Incarnate mobs in Praetoria who will have 30 levels or so on any mob a native Praetorian would ever see while running around their three-zone city with its level cap of 20 or so? One day, the developers will release the trial that will let you fight Tyrant instead of his non-Incarnate goons. That some of you might have kicked his tail solo or in a small team in missions in the past (and have the Statesman's Pal badge to prove it!) will be irrelevant when he hands Incarnates their rainbow-farting backsides.

Again, the Well of Furies works in mysterious ways...

I'll stick to my timetable. Issue 21 is in the pipe, but it's still unannounced vaporware.

Oh lovely. That means Stalker should get it too right? I really want to try Ice Melee but I hate Tankers. Please give it Scrapper/Stalker. :P

The one thing that could make me reroll my 50 Tanker is if Brutes got Ice Armor and Ice Melee. I'd respec all his IO's off him and redo the character in an instant.

I just don't believe all the "it hurts Fury" crap. I have run my Ice/Ice Dominator with a friend's Brute, using every trick I had to slow the mobs down, including staying in melee with Arctic Air running, and he had no Fury problems at all.

Not splitting hairs, coming down to the core of the whole timetable you were using. You suggested that some people don't see a need for an endgame, then alluded to the idea that those people would go virtually a year without seeing much of anything. The "endgame mechanics" were I20. Two months old. The "Incarnate story" was introduced prior to that, in I19, using very standard game mechanics that differed very little from the original content. Either way, it didn't stand up to the sentiment that this has been a longstanding divergence from the norm.

As you said- everyone's entitled to their own opinion about an issue- that's purely subjective- but you can't make up facts to back your argument without being called on it. It may FEEL like the non-endgame-content player has been neglected for a long time, but the mixing of dates to justify how you feel was a (perhaps unintentional) shell game.

You cannot be serious. It was an extremely relevant and valid point. So-called "compulsory" (your word, not mine) Incarnate trial "raids" have been in the game less than two months. That's a demonstrable, provable fact. Maybe you didn't like the Incarnate stuff in Issue 19, but if so, that has absolutely zero bearing on the issues you mentioned.

This is pretty much the sum total of what we know about Issue 21:

You know what kind of sticks out at me? There is no mention whatsoever about the end-game experience. In fact, if you read his whole post, the word Incarnate appears in it exactly zero times. Will there be nothing Incarnate-related in the issue? Meh, I dunno, maybe. But still, it seems odd to me that he wouldn't have at least stuck a quick, "We've got some cool new Incarnate stuff in the pipeline, too!" in there. It seems to me that despite your melodrama and alarmism, Issue 21 is probably not going to be heavily on the end-game/Incarnate content.

What server do you play on? I'm not being facetious, I really want to know. On the servers I've been playing on, this is patently false, and it boggles my mind that any of the servers are like this. I want to make a character there and see this phenomenon firsthand.

You're right!

What I'm more worried about not seeing mentioned in this little quote is I see no mention of power proliferation, which if the #! most important thing they need to work on.

IMO...others may vary (but they'd be wrong >_>)

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Guess what?

It's STILL voluntary.

I you don't feel the need for an end game, you are free to keep doing whatever it was you were doing before it existed.

Unless what you were doing before was taken away from us.....oh wait....it wasn't, it's still RIGHT THERE.

Something being compulsory means you have no choice whether or not you do it. If you log in to the game and do anything other than an incarnate trial, you have just proven that incarnate content is NOT compulsory.

If it were compulsory, the game would put you in a trial against your will the second you log in. The fact that you can choose not to do the trials is, in and of itself, conclusive proof that they are not compulsory.

If you don't want to do it, you don't have to do it. That makes it voluntary by definition.

Edit:

You know what cheeses me off about this whole argument?

The people who WANTED an end game have been waiting SEVEN YEARS for what they want to be addressed, and have been patient that entire time. So far I have yet to see anyone who likes the trials say that there should not be solo content as well. None of the people who wanted an end game are begrudging those who didn't. Most of the people who wanted it have agreed that there should be non-trial content released as well.

On the flip side of it, the people who don't like the trials (who have been catered to for seven years) are acting like two months is too much time to spend on something they don't want. Seven years of getting what they wanted, and now that something they don't want is added to the game, they're throwing a fit.

So, you can have what you wanted for seven years, but two months is too much to give the people who wanted something else?! That is PURE SELFISHNESS, plain and simple. Seriously, you are acting as though two frigging months of not being catered to is an unforgivable crime.

The devs are responding to the desires of someone other than you. Deal with it.

(Oh, and just for the record, the person to blame for any sense of self-entitlement is defined by the very term used to describe it.)

Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately.