DC Relaunching Everything in the Fall?
By
Agonus,
Posted on: 2011-05-17 19:08 in Comic and Hero-Villain Culture
Quote:
Some interesting info there, but the writing you quoted makes my usually tolerant inner grammar Nazi grit its teeth. Still, i'm watching this with interest. i haven't stopped buying the few DC titles i regularly pick up since i was already reading them without any illusions that they'd maintain continuity. (The completely unannounced LSU reboot many months ago has already quashed any expectations i had regarding that. From one issue to the next there was a sudden change in character roster, storylines and setting with no warning or explanation in the comic itself. It managed my expectations rather nicely.)
|
Originally Posted by BlackSun17
More info from the DC roadshow. Will edit and highlight after posting as the forums keep logging me out....
Quote:
|
Dr. Todt's theme.
i make stuff...
Quote:
Are you saying that because Batman is "an Urban Legend" in the DCnU that they can stretch/shorten the timeline?|
Originally Posted by Ms. Mesmer
Well, that at least gives them some leeway to stretch Batman and Superman's timelines out a bit more on the early end. Maybe 10 years at maximum.
It still pretty much puts Flash, Green Lantern and Wonder Woman at no greater than about 6 years ago. Think about it. You're a police scientist who suddenly gets hit by a bath of chemicals and a lightning bolt that give you the power to move at lightspeed, vibrate through walls, and all other kinds of cool things, and you decide to put on a red and yellow/gold outfit and fight crime. What's one of the first things that you're going to do? Probably go check out that very public flyimg man that saves Metropolis and the world on a regular basis that you've been seeing news reports about for as much as 5 years. Same with getting a ring that allows you to do as many amazing things, if not more, or being a gods-gifted emissary from a land of magic and superscience. Any of these would also likely have their minds suddenly opened to the possibility that that mysterious bat creature in Gotham City might be more than just some flight of fancy, and would go and see if this is yet another of your kind. Not to mention going out to meet each other, which inevitably leads to the Justice League. This logic has been the likely source of the early Justice League in both official DCU timelines, even if it does disregard some of the established time spans in the early years of these heroes from other stories. Even at 10 years ago, this all takes place in the age of the internet, and mostly in the time of commonplace cellphone cameras. The Batman as urban legend thing is going to be hard to swallow if he's using the more flashy Batmobiles early on. That thing attracts attention. Dave Campbell once rightly said that the DCU version of Youtube is probably clogged with cellphone videos of the Batmobile. This does at least give a little bit more float on the ages of the various Robins. |
Batman was an Urban Legend in canon up until No Man's Land...which happened in like Year16 if memory serves, but even then he was still more or less a legend until War Games several years later in the Fall of Year 19 where the first clear pictures of Batman were taken in broad daylight while coming out of a school carrying a dying girl...who would later becomes a meta-super villain that is forgotten now adays.
So Batman was more or less an Urban Legend up until 3 years ago in canon of DCU...
Also this generates a problem which I doubt they'll fix...
Tim Drake's origin was written in the age where Batman was not an Urban Legend and relies on the idea that there was footage of Batman and Robin fighting crime... enough that he knew there were 2 Robins and that now there was none. With the idea of Batman and Robin being urban legends that origin can no longer be the case.
If youtube was around 9 years ago, in 2002 (which it wasn't), they could say he got the info there.
Of course they could always mess with the time line and the technology so that it was there, but I still would like them to correct that one minor flaw in Tim's character.
I don't know how else to explain it, but I'm pretty... excited about this relaunch. I used to read a lot of DC stuff when I was just a wee tyke. But when I got back into comics about four years ago, the DCU seemed too big and cumbersome to really wrap my head around. So I just didn't bother with it. I stuck with the stuff I knew best: Marvel.
For all their faults, most Marvel comics are fairly easy to jump in and out of without getting too lost in the weeds (from my perspective anyway).
With this new relaunch, I feel like I'm getting a chance to get in at a break in the chaos. I've spent hours now reading up on the new titles, figuring out which ones I'm adding to my pull, getting reacquainted with the basics of DC lore and in general just looking forward to getting these books in my grubby little hands.
Whatever DC is doing, it's worked on me.
Quote:
and then there are people like me who actually read everything and we essentially get shafted...|
Originally Posted by ProcessedMeatMan
I don't know how else to explain it, but I'm pretty... excited about this relaunch. I used to read a lot of DC stuff when I was just a wee tyke. But when I got back into comics about four years ago, the DCU seemed too big and cumbersome to really wrap my head around. So I just didn't bother with it. I stuck with the stuff I knew best: Marvel.
For all their faults, most Marvel comics are fairly easy to jump in and out of without getting too lost in the weeds (from my perspective anyway). With this new relaunch, I feel like I'm getting a chance to get in at a break in the chaos. I've spent hours now reading up on the new titles, figuring out which ones I'm adding to my pull, getting reacquainted with the basics of DC lore and in general just looking forward to getting these books in my grubby little hands. Whatever DC is doing, it's worked on me. |
but then im far from normal and i would say that what i did/still doing is pointless as there are only a few really good books/stories over the course of years that are worthwhile and a lot of the rest is just fluff that can be read or not.
like if you took batman and read it all from the beginning with a mind to read only important events... you could cut out about half the reading or more before or after the mid 90s because after/before that point all the major events take place over a month or two, and you just need to buy several titles...
id recommend only reading a select few concentrated arcs and forgetting the rest as it is just too time consuming and not worth it for the overall addition to the mythos... once you read those arcs you pretty much have a good idea of the era and can decide to read from there or not.
but then again Batman is a far more daunting task than just about any other character just because to figure out his universe or rather the gotham universe you have to read several titles that range from crime drama, to charlies angels, to action adventure, to comedy, to mystery... its not a bad thing that it's like that... its a bad thing that they aren't kept relevant or have too much history to jump into without research...
I understand the need for a relaunch but i think it'd be better if they created a line of books that gave a compressed history lesson for each character that a reader could go pick up. That could get a person caught up and use it as a guide to direct new people as to what they should be reading... as well as you could retell stories in a way that compresses and explains them so you get the full story in a more easily understood way... like NML or the Knightfall Saga or The Reign of the Supermen... those are all pretty confusing if you don't read everything and even if you do you can still get lost...
it would also allow for DCU to put out a more or less official canon with corrections and explanations so that things like Tim Drake's origin makes sense and Barbara's story of why she stopped being batgirl is clarified... or clarify PowertGirl...
Quote:
No, I'm making a couple of separate points, as evidenced by those paragraph breaks. I'm saying they can stretch the timeline on the pre-JLA period for Batman and Superman by saying they debuted some years earlier, thus at least giving the Robins a little room to be his sidekicks. Batman being an urban legend plays into it, since it leaves Superman as unique in the public eye for whatever amount of time that he's out there before the others debut, but it probably isn't a necessary condition.|
Originally Posted by Durakken
Are you saying that because Batman is "an Urban Legend" in the DCnU that they can stretch/shorten the timeline?
Batman was an Urban Legend in canon up until No Man's Land...which happened in like Year16 if memory serves, but even then he was still more or less a legend until War Games several years later in the Fall of Year 19 where the first clear pictures of Batman were taken in broad daylight while coming out of a school carrying a dying girl...who would later becomes a meta-super villain that is forgotten now adays. So Batman was more or less an Urban Legend up until 3 years ago in canon of DCU... Also this generates a problem which I doubt they'll fix... Tim Drake's origin was written in the age where Batman was not an Urban Legend and relies on the idea that there was footage of Batman and Robin fighting crime... enough that he knew there were 2 Robins and that now there was none. With the idea of Batman and Robin being urban legends that origin can no longer be the case. If youtube was around 9 years ago, in 2002 (which it wasn't), they could say he got the info there. Of course they could always mess with the time line and the technology so that it was there, but I still would like them to correct that one minor flaw in Tim's character. |
The other point is how I've always found the urban legend idea for Batman in the era after he was a member of the Justice League (and Dick was a member of the Teen Titans) to be stupid, and that even prior to the Justice League, him driving a big, flashy, almost-certainly very noisy high-performance vehicle through Gotham in that era will stretch that idea beyond the breaking point.
As for him being an urban legend supposedly up to No Man's Land, that was a ridiculous concept put forth by Denny O'Neil as one of his freebie retcons from Zero Hour. It invalidated Tim's origin, as you point out, and his definitely in canon appearances in the early years of the post-Crisis Justice League series. It made no sense with his original sidekick, who everyone knew was his sidekick, having been a member of the high-profile Teen Titans. It also hasn't been canon that he was an urban legend anywhere near that late since at least Identity Crisis, which restored him to being active with the very visible Justice League way back before COIE. New canon trumps old canon, always.
The Youtube comment is just to point out the absurdity of him even having the Batmobile and managing to keep his identity secret, much less having his very existence questioned. In the same blog post where he points out that the DCU version of Youtube would be filled with videos of the Batmobile going by, Campbell makes another interesting point. This car, that's very noticeable, goes out of the city in the same direction every time. Any intrepid reporter with half a brain would find the pattern of roads that it always takes within a few months, then camp along one of them to the access road or whatever they converge on, and follow it upward by probably a half-mile every night until they got to whatever one led right to a cave under Bruce Wayne's house. Identity blown right there.
"I wish my life was a non-stop Hollywood movie show,
A fantasy world of celluloid villains and heroes."
Quote:
Yes if that were the case...|
Originally Posted by Ms. Mesmer
This car, that's very noticeable, goes out of the city in the same direction every time. Any intrepid reporter with half a brain would find the pattern of roads that it always takes within a few months, then camp along one of them to the access road or whatever they converge on, and follow it upward by probably a half-mile every night until they got to whatever one led right to a cave under Bruce Wayne's house. Identity blown right there.
|
Year 1 he didn't have the batmobile
End of Year 3 he did, but didn't always use it
Between year 3 and 13 he set up at least 1 "extra" bat-cave now known as the bat-bunker
As of at least 94ish which is around year 13 he had the bat train thingy
After year 16(NML) he set up multiple bat caves, fully decked out
So we can assume that that pre-Year 16 the journalist didn't take it seriously enough to find it or report it (with the cover it's just the police trying to scare crooks) and after that point it would have been too hard to find it.
I'm not concerned to much. DC will revert back to "normal" once the numbers drop off even more.
The real problem will be how to keep Superman going while "hopefully" they get around to getting all the things they lost to the family lawyers back.
Quote:
The problem with Superman and Wonder Woman is they aren't relevant... or at least they aren't perceived to be because they aren't talking about any issues that are relevant to the real world...|
Originally Posted by Matthew_Orlock
The real problem will be how to keep Superman going while "hopefully" they get around to getting all the things they lost to the family lawyers back.
|
Superman is a power fantasy
Wonder Woman is a Women's Lib/Sexual Lib movement character
In a world where everything is a grey there is nothing you can just say go beat up that guy and things will be solved for Superman to be involved in.
In a world where Women's Lib and Sexual liberation are perceived to as done and over with there isn't much room for Wonder Woman.
We also have uncreative writers that are apparently to chicken to take on the issues of the day. Superman is technically is a result of gene therapy and cloning that possess powers that can be mistaken for a god while Wonder Woman is from a world that is all about Women's rights and is the daughter of a "god" and in some rights a "god" herself.
We could deal with theism/atheism, prochoice/prolife, gene-therapy, stem cell research and a number of other issues but they aren't doing that...
I think that if that is how they are going to use them...or not use them as it were, they should not be considered "the trinity" and you want a "trinity" I'd propose that Batman, Oracle, and Green Lantern are far more suited to that role.
Quote:
Believe me, if I were in your position, I'd be mighty pissed off too. |
Originally Posted by Durakken
and then there are people like me who actually read everything and we essentially get shafted...
|
I was not happy with the Spider-Man OMD fiasco, but I stuck with it. And after two years, I'm glad I did. While I still long for the days of Pete and MJ, Spidey has been a fun read. Sure there have been some duds, but you can't win em all I guess.
If they want to make the Big 3 make sense and have a purpose, then Batman needs to be the Human who uses gadgets and his brain. Superman is the overpowered alien boyscout. Wonder Woman needs to be the mystical magical being who deals more in the magical realm. She uses magical gadgets and such which would make her nearly as powerful as Superman, so she could handle the magical threats that would hurt Superman and would be outside of Batman's concept of reality.
Human - Alien - Goddess
Quote:
Wow.|
Originally Posted by Durakken
Superman is a power fantasy
Wonder Woman is a Women's Lib/Sexual Lib movement character In a world where everything is a grey there is nothing you can just say go beat up that guy and things will be solved for Superman to be involved in. In a world where Women's Lib and Sexual liberation are perceived to as done and over with there isn't much room for Wonder Woman. |
Those are two of the most shallow interpretations of Superman and Wonder Woman I've ever seen.
The new JL lineup. I like the WW outfit, dislike the Superman outfit.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by BleedingCool
The full line up for the new Justice League. Aquaman, Green Lantern, Wonder Woman, Superman, Batman, Flash and Cyborg we knew.
But it also seems we have Deadman, Atom, Element Woman, Firestorm, Green Arrow, Hawkman, Power Girl and Mara. |
Go Team Venture!
Quote:
That's what they are and where they originated from. I also said that they can be used in other ways due to their origins but haven't been
|
Originally Posted by Cowman
Wow.
Those are two of the most shallow interpretations of Superman and Wonder Woman I've ever seen. |
Quote:
WW's outfit doesn't look bad. I just hate it for the reason I see them changing it. :/ It's not a "Oh this would be an awesome outfit" it's a "We can't have her in a bikini style outfit"|
Originally Posted by BlackSun17
The new JL lineup. I like the WW outfit, dislike the Superman outfit.
|
Superman's outfit doesn't look bad, but it does look like he's wearing some added armor, and it makes me think "Why would Superman need armor?"
Don't care for Cyborg's chin gaurd either.
Glad to see Power Girl is around though I wonder if they changed her too.
BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection
So DC now has Edna Mole working for them. How would all of them have the same style outfits. Sorry GL i know your costume is a ring construct but your Justice League and we have a dress-code.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by ObiWan
So DC now has Edna Mole working for them. How would all of them have the same style outfits. Sorry GL i know your costume is a ring construct but your Justice League and we have a dress-code.
|
All the costumes were graciously donated by WayneTech Enterprises. Notice Supes gadget belt?
Also, a little confused by the picture. The blond on the right has the hair of PG, but the costume looks more Black Canary.
*goes back to reading pre-OYL JLA*
- CaptainFoamerang
Silverspar on Kelly Hu: A face that could melt paint off the wall *shivers*
Someone play my AE arc! "The Heart of Statesman" ID: 343405
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by CaptainFoamerang
*goes back to reading pre-OYL JLA*
|
I have complete runs of all but the very first Justice League. I figure by the time I get done rereading all of them DC will have come to their senses and reverted back to the old continuity.
Don't get me wrong i don't mind reboots. I just find it odd that a group of divergent origin supers would have costumes designed so closely. It's almost as if they were all designed by the same person...
Quote:
Is that considered ironic given what Wonder Woman's creator was into?
|
Originally Posted by Durakken
That's what they are and where they originated from.
|
Quote:
/Phil Ken Seben voice|
Originally Posted by Cowman
Is that considered ironic given what Wonder Woman's creator was into?
|
Ha ha!...
Quote:
I think I heard that was a conscious decision by the league members. Basically a uniform.
|
Originally Posted by ObiWan
Don't get me wrong i don't mind reboots. I just find it odd that a group of divergent origin supers would have costumes designed so closely. It's almost as if they were all designed by the same person...
|
Weight training: Because you'll never hear someone lament "If only I were weaker, I could have saved them."
So Cyborg has even less human bits now? Criminey for some reason i feel like im flashing back to the '90s. *sees designed by Jim Lee labels*
oh... right.
Quote:
Yeah, I like Wonder Woman's costume as well, but the boots need to be some color than black. I like Aquaman's costume. |
Originally Posted by BlackSun17
The new JL lineup. I like the WW outfit, dislike the Superman outfit.
|
What I don't like about these costumes is that they appear to be made of too many segments. Not every costume needs to look like armor. Why does the Flash's boots look like they are made from 15 pieces? Why does everyone look like they have shoulder armor, including Superman? Even Wonder Woman's shoulder in this drawing looks a bit segmented. Why do the Atom and Flash's head gear look like they are made of multiple pieces? The only one of these characters who would benefit from a more armored suit is Batman, and he's the one who's costume looks the best from an update standard. Superman has no need for an armored look. He has no need for armor. Neither does GL for that matter what with the ring and force fields and whatnot.
Really think Superman's belt should not be all red. Should have some yellow in it to break things up. Like his shield.
Still don't like all the metal around Cyborg's chin.
That's one heck of a beak on Hawkman's helmet.
One good thing is that we hear and see that there IS still a Power Girl. And it appears that she is wearing a turtle neck and jacket.
Not the first time she's done the turtle neck outfit, though:
Do you have any idea how hard it is to find pics of this costume of Power Girl? I almost went to go scan in my DC's Who's Who...
Well, that at least gives them some leeway to stretch Batman and Superman's timelines out a bit more on the early end. Maybe 10 years at maximum.
It still pretty much puts Flash, Green Lantern and Wonder Woman at no greater than about 6 years ago. Think about it. You're a police scientist who suddenly gets hit by a bath of chemicals and a lightning bolt that give you the power to move at lightspeed, vibrate through walls, and all other kinds of cool things, and you decide to put on a red and yellow/gold outfit and fight crime. What's one of the first things that you're going to do? Probably go check out that very public flyimg man that saves Metropolis and the world on a regular basis that you've been seeing news reports about for as much as 5 years. Same with getting a ring that allows you to do as many amazing things, if not more, or being a gods-gifted emissary from a land of magic and superscience. Any of these would also likely have their minds suddenly opened to the possibility that that mysterious bat creature in Gotham City might be more than just some flight of fancy, and would go and see if this is yet another of your kind. Not to mention going out to meet each other, which inevitably leads to the Justice League. This logic has been the likely source of the early Justice League in both official DCU timelines, even if it does disregard some of the established time spans in the early years of these heroes from other stories.
Even at 10 years ago, this all takes place in the age of the internet, and mostly in the time of commonplace cellphone cameras. The Batman as urban legend thing is going to be hard to swallow if he's using the more flashy Batmobiles early on. That thing attracts attention. Dave Campbell once rightly said that the DCU version of Youtube is probably clogged with cellphone videos of the Batmobile.
This does at least give a little bit more float on the ages of the various Robins.
"I wish my life was a non-stop Hollywood movie show,
A fantasy world of celluloid villains and heroes."